MALDI-TOF-MS/HPLC-UV-VIS rHGH results

[muscle96ss]

WOW....so are you saying that you think each vial in one kit is different when it comes to Generics?
So why even bother if that's the case brutha
I saw a post on PM (HGHman) that mentioned that also

I tested ONE Vial in an ANGtropin kit (17.9IUs)

My IGF1 reflected that the kits was "overdosed"

My GH Serum (10ng/mL) did not

So again, Blood Work/Lab Analysis

When it comes to generics, you don't necessarily know whats going on from any aspect. Is the source ordering different strength vials? Is the factory doing a switcheroo and varying the strength of the vials? Unless you know specifically where it is being manufactured and who the source is, you just don't know. If you are trusting that the factory and the source is honest to begin with, then why even bother doing the testing? I mean it should contain the accurate dosage then.

 

[ProfessorX]

Once again, you are comparing members and not making comparisons within the same individual. I don't care what member x gets in comparison to member y; there are too many individual variables that you can't control. I care about what member x gets in comparison with his whole body of work of other tests he has conducted.

"Growth hormone serum test result inconsistencies

HGH serum levels depend on many factors and are inconsistent from test to test. These factors include injection timing, dosage, diet, current body levels of amino acid degrading enzyme responsible for HGH degradation, potential immune response, etc. For this reason you are unlikely to get the same growth hormone test result twice. The result is a reliable indicator that the injected growth hormone is authentic however it cannot determine the quality or potency of HGH. This is a common misconception often mentioned on bodybuilding forums. HGH serum levels will not tell you "how strong" the growth hormone is, only whether it is real or not."


This is a common misconception often mentioned on bodybuilding forums.


Trust me M....getting samples Lab Tested would help. It really helped me

Peace

 

[rpbb]

"Growth hormone serum test result inconsistencies

HGH serum levels depend on many factors and are inconsistent from test to test. These factors include injection timing, dosage, diet, current body levels of amino acid degrading enzyme responsible for HGH degradation, potential immune response, etc. For this reason you are unlikely to get the same growth hormone test result twice. The result is a reliable indicator that the injected growth hormone is authentic however it cannot determine the quality or potency of HGH. This is a common misconception often mentioned on bodybuilding forums. HGH serum levels will not tell you "how strong" the growth hormone is, only whether it is real or not."


This is a common misconception often mentioned on bodybuilding forums.


Trust me M....getting samples Lab Tested would help. It really helped me

Peace

prof, are you going to post the results

 

[ProfessorX]

prof, are you going to post the results

I've got lots of Blood Work/Lab Analysis that's already been done. It's posted on another board

It shows IGF1 in relation to "concentration" and GH Serums being inaccurate when determining "dose", etc

I posted some SIMEC results on this thread.

Send me a PM...and I'll send you some links if you'd like

I think we have 6-8 new samples at SIMEC now

 

[muscle96ss]

"Growth hormone serum test result inconsistencies

HGH serum levels depend on many factors and are inconsistent from test to test. These factors include injection timing, dosage, diet, current body levels of amino acid degrading enzyme responsible for HGH degradation, potential immune response, etc. For this reason you are unlikely to get the same growth hormone test result twice. The result is a reliable indicator that the injected growth hormone is authentic however it cannot determine the quality or potency of HGH. This is a common misconception often mentioned on bodybuilding forums. HGH serum levels will not tell you "how strong" the growth hormone is, only whether it is real or not."


This is a common misconception often mentioned on bodybuilding forums.


Trust me M....getting samples Lab Tested would help. It really helped me

Peace

You keep ignoring what I am saying. Yes, everybody has individual characteristics and their serum tests AS WELL AS their IGF-1's are going to vary from each other. However, withing the same individual, if you control for all variables controllable, you are likely to get similar results. RP has tested the greys on numerous occasions and the serum GH's have ALL been within a point or so of each other. I have repeated tests as well and they have yielded similar results. My results are different than RP's because we are different people, but our results themselves are consistent within our own scores. Its like taking testosterone for HRT, some people need 50mg per week, some 100mg, some 200mg; all to get the same serum testosterone level. The person who is on 50mg per week is going to get his blood serum T concentrations monitored on a regular basis to see if his dosage needs to be modified over time to obtain the same results. However, it most likely is going to remain stable unless something in his other medications or lifestyle chnages; or possibly illness. The doctor doesn't send his testosterone in for lab testing and then decide on the dosage based on the lab results and some algorithm on how much he should be injecting to get to a certain level. He instead bases it off his serum T levels. In our case with GH we base things off our serum IGF-1 levels. However, IGF-1 levels take time to build up. So before ever running an IGF-1, I will run a serum GH to make sure that the GH is even worth wasting my time with. Hope this make sense.

 

[ProfessorX]

You keep ignoring what I am saying. Yes, everybody has individual characteristics and their serum tests AS WELL AS their IGF-1's are going to vary from each other. However, withing the same individual, if you control for all variables controllable, you are likely to get similar results. RP has tested the greys on numerous occasions and the serum GH's have ALL been within a point or so of each other. I have repeated tests as well and they have yielded similar results. My results are different than RP's because we are different people, but our results themselves are consistent within our own scores. Its like taking testosterone for HRT, some people need 50mg per week, some 100mg, some 200mg; all to get the same serum testosterone level. The person who is on 50mg per week is going to get his blood serum T concentrations monitored on a regular basis to see if his dosage needs to be modified over time to obtain the same results. However, it most likely is going to remain stable unless something in his other medications or lifestyle chnages; or possibly illness. The doctor doesn't send his testosterone in for lab testing and then decide on the dosage based on the lab results and some algorithm on how much he should be injecting to get to a certain level. He instead bases it off his serum T levels. In our case with GH we base things off our serum IGF-1 levels. However, IGF-1 levels take time to build up. So before ever running an IGF-1, I will run a serum GH to make sure that the GH is even worth wasting my time with. Hope this make sense.

Brutha....I feel your pain on this one.....but you're referring to your "data posted on PM" as Science when in fact it's just BroScience or Bro'Lore.

You continue that GH Serums have "accurate data" and you are still saying "IGF1 levels take time to build up"

All of that is FALSE

I can double my IGF1 level with only one SubQ inject. Double it within Hours

IGF1 Serum responds to EXO GH similar to GH Serums

IGF1 is more STABLE AND CAN REFLECT DOSE...GH Serums DO NOT (accurately)

"Doctors can't simply test for the level of growth hormone (GH) in your body because the level varies so much in one day—even in someone without acromegaly. That means that a doctor could randomly test for GH and get a normal level in a person with acromegaly. However, because of GH fluctuations, the doctor could also test GH levels in someone without acromegaly and get a level far above normal.

Therefore, doctors rely on IGF-1

Just switch to doing IGF1s.......IGF1 reflects Dose (mg/IU)

Quit wasting $ and time on those GH Serums....and replace it with MS/HPLC

Trust me.....with the recent Xtremely Elevated Black Top GH Serums....and the low IGF1s....the SIMEC results will just prove what I'm trying to tell ya

30-50ng/mL (GH Serum) Sold as 10IU Vials (underdosed by half or more)

QUIT PUSHING GH SERUMS

 

[muscle96ss]

Brutha....I feel your pain on this one.....but you're referring to your "data posted on PM" as Science when in fact it's just BroScience or Bro'Lore.

You continue that GH Serums have "accurate data" and you are still saying "IGF1 levels take time to build up"

All of that is FALSE

I can double my IGF1 level with only one SubQ inject. Double it within Hours

"Doctors can't simply test for the level of growth hormone (GH) in your body because the level varies so much in one day—even in someone without acromegaly. That means that a doctor could randomly test for GH and get a normal level in a person with acromegaly. However, because of GH fluctuations, the doctor could also test GH levels in someone without acromegaly and get a level far above normal.

Therefore, doctors rely on IGF-1

Just switch to doing IGF1s.......IGF1 reflects Dose (mg/IU)

Quit wasting $ and time on those GH Serums....and replace it with MS/HPLC

First of all, you cannot double your IGF-1 within hours with one subq inject. Please post some real science that states that.

Secondly, IGF-1 does not necessarily reflect dose. You can take 10 different people and give them each 10iu GH per day for a month and then take their IGF-1's and I bet you are going to have a huge variation between the highest and lowest scores with a bunch of people scattered within that range. In fact, look at any studies where IGF-1 levels from exogenous GH were measured over a decent sample size; you will see a ton of variability.

You really need to be posting this over in the HGH Testing thread at PM where others can add to this discussion. We are both after the same information and trying to learn from this. There are so many intelligent and articulate people involved in that thread that it would be much more productive to have their inputs as well. I am not saying that because I think they will side with me; I actually think there will be some on both sides as serum GH's have always been a point of contention.

 

[ProfessorX]

First of all, you cannot double your IGF-1 within hours with one subq inject. Please post some real science that states that.

Secondly, IGF-1 does not necessarily reflect dose. You can take 10 different people and give them each 10iu GH per day for a month and then take their IGF-1's and I bet you are going to have a huge variation between the highest and lowest scores with a bunch of people scattered within that range. In fact, look at any studies where IGF-1 levels from exogenous GH were measured over a decent sample size; you will see a ton of variability.

You really need to be posting this over in the HGH Testing thread at PM where others can add to this discussion. We are both after the same information and trying to learn from this. There are so many intelligent and articulate people involved in that thread that it would be much more productive to have their inputs as well. I am not saying that because I think they will side with me; I actually think there will be some on both sides as serum GH's have always been a point of contention.

And yes, you are right...we are all looking for some solid, real info

And I've done all this already brutha

From Baseline with one SubQ inject (5-6IUs) Doubled my IGF1...with several Brands of Pharma, Generic, etc.

This is based on Clinical Studies that you don't see on BodyBuilding Forums

IGF1 DOES REFLECT DOSE ACCORDING TO A STUDY DONE BY NORDITROPIN

5IUs SubQ inject will reach Saturation/Constant Peak 8days (approx) IGF1 -500s

I've done a similar Testing Protocol

Brutha I've done it all.....Blood Tested....Lab Tested....Protein Characterization


THATS THE MAIN PROBLEM AT PM....ALL VAGUE BLOOD WORK AND NO REAL LAB ANALYSIS

There's 200 pages of "guessing"

And I'm not dissing it.....you just need to take it to the next level

 

[muscle96ss]

And yes, you are right...we are all looking for some solid, real info

And I've done all this already brutha

From Baseline with one SubQ inject (5-6IUs) Doubled my IGF1...with several Brands of Pharma, Generic, etc.

This is based on Clinical Studies that you don't see on BodyBuilding Forums

IGF1 DOES REFLECT DOSE ACCORDING TO A STUDY DONE BY NORDITROPIN

5IUs SubQ inject will reach Saturation/Constant Peak 8days (approx) IGF1 -500s

I've done a similar Testing Protocol

Brutha I've done it all.....Blood Tested....Lab Tested....Protein Characterization


THATS THE MAIN PROBLEM AT PM....ALL VAGUE BLOOD WORK AND NO REAL LAB ANALYSIS

There actually were lab analysis done several years ago in a transparent way. Since then, there have been various lab analysis that have been performed in private; some of which have been publicly posted. So I think we have a good idea of whats what at this point. Its more a matter of making sure things remain consistent and assess the new sources or new generic GH's that come to the market to ensure a quality product and that people don't get ripped off.

Lastly, in terms of the doubling your IGF-1 levels from one subq injection; you are basing that off your bloodwork and not scientific studies. Yet you call my analysis of my bloodwork broscience. You can't have it both ways.

 

[ProfessorX]

There actually were lab analysis done several years ago in a transparent way. Since then, there have been various lab analysis that have been performed in private; some of which have been publicly posted. So I think we have a good idea of whats what at this point. Its more a matter of making sure things remain consistent and assess the new sources or new generic GH's that come to the market to ensure a quality product and that people don't get ripped off.

Lastly, in terms of the doubling your IGF-1 levels from one subq injection; you are basing that off your bloodwork and not scientific studies. Yet you call my analysis of my bloodwork broscience. You can't have it both ways.

"Lastly, in terms of the doubling your IGF-1 levels from one subq injection; you are basing that off your bloodwork and not scientific studies."

This is based off a BioEquivalence Study between Genotropin/Omnitrope (true Generic or BioSimilar)

Brutha we can all day with this. Trust me.....I gots lots of Ammo on this subject

IGF1 and IGFBP3 are what Clinical Studies use

GH Serums are NEVER (BioEquivalence) used in actual Pharma Studies the way BBing Forums use them

Don't get confused with the GH Serum Graphs, etc

Those results are based on VERY CONTROLLED studies

 

[rpbb]

I very much appreciate the way you two are debating in this thread, it stays away from personnel attacks, and is a very good debate where all the members learn something

 

[ProfessorX]

I very much appreciate the way you two are debating in this thread, it stays away from personnel attacks, and is a very good debate where all the members learn something

It doesn't have to be that way (personal attacks)

I do see where Muscle is coming from......that's a SHITTON of Blood Work, Dedication, Time, and Money that's posted over at PM

But.....it's just a revolving door of the same vague Blood Work Numbers

We tend to "Read Information" into those Numbers

I've done it myself.....but taking it to the next level (Reading Clinical Studies, Replicating their Blood Testing Protocol, followed by Lab Analysis) is where I really learned

I REALLY HOPE MANDS AND JIM COME TOGETHER ON MORE TESTING

I was really Bummed when it all went South

 

[muscle96ss]

"Lastly, in terms of the doubling your IGF-1 levels from one subq injection; you are basing that off your bloodwork and not scientific studies."

This is based off a BioEquivalence Study between Genotropin/Omnitrope (true Generic or BioSimilar)

Brutha we can all day with this. Trust me.....I gots lots of Ammo on this subject

IGF1 and IGFBP3 are what Clinical Studies use

GH Serums are NEVER (BioEquivalence) used in actual Pharma Studies the way BBing Forums use them

Don't get confused with the GH Serum Graphs, etc

Those results are based on VERY CONTROLLED studies

Serum GH is not used in clinical studies because they are not trying to determine if their GH is fake or not; lol!! Can you post this study you are talking about showing 1 subq shot doubling IGF-1?

 

[ProfessorX]

Serum GH is not used in clinical studies because they are not trying to determine if their GH is fake or not; lol!! Can you post this study you are talking about showing 1 subq shot doubling IGF-1?

"Serum GH is not used in clinical studies because they are not trying to determine if their GH is fake or not"

EXACTLY....The Real Information is right there in your own Statement:

Growth hormone serum test result inconsistencies

HGH serum levels depend on many factors and are inconsistent from test to test. These factors include injection timing, dosage, diet, current body levels of amino acid degrading enzyme responsible for HGH degradation, potential immune response, etc. For this reason you are unlikely to get the same growth hormone test result twice. The result is a reliable indicator that the injected growth hormone is authentic however it cannot determine the quality or potency of HGH. This is a common misconception often mentioned on bodybuilding forums. HGH serum levels will not tell you "how strong" the growth hormone is, only whether it is real or not.


(GH SERUM)
ONLY IF IT'S A GH PROTEIN. THE GH PROTEINS CAN BE A RANGE OF PROTEINS
AGAIN, LABCORP DOESNT TARGET ONLY SOMATROPIN

IGF1 elevation, etc.:

Bioequivalence studies of omnitrope, the first biosimilar/rhGH follow-on protein: two comparative phase 1 randomized studies and population pharmacokinetic analysis.

 

[muscle96ss]

"Serum GH is not used in clinical studies because they are not trying to determine if their GH is fake or not"

EXACTLY....The Real Information is right there in your own Statement:

Growth hormone serum test result inconsistencies

HGH serum levels depend on many factors and are inconsistent from test to test. These factors include injection timing, dosage, diet, current body levels of amino acid degrading enzyme responsible for HGH degradation, potential immune response, etc. For this reason you are unlikely to get the same growth hormone test result twice. The result is a reliable indicator that the injected growth hormone is authentic however it cannot determine the quality or potency of HGH. This is a common misconception often mentioned on bodybuilding forums. HGH serum levels will not tell you "how strong" the growth hormone is, only whether it is real or not.


(GH SERUM)
ONLY IF IT'S A GH PROTEIN. THE GH PROTEINS CAN BE A RANGE OF PROTEINS
AGAIN, LABCORP DOESNT TARGET ONLY SOMATROPIN

IGF1 elevation, etc.:

Bioequivalence studies of omnitrope, the first biosimilar/rhGH follow-on protein: two comparative phase 1 randomized studies and population pharmacokinetic analysis.

Can you post the actual study(copy and paste), so I can read it?

 

[ProfessorX]

Can you post the actual study(copy and paste), so I can read it?

I'll find it for ya buddy....I've also got multiple Blood Results that show Baseline to Elevated IGF1 (with dates to prove what I did)

You can 'Google' what I posted for now. Tons of info

Also, there's 2 different clinical studies (Norditropin and Genotropin/Omnitrope)

Both show GH Serum Elevation (Similar)

One study uses 5IUs...the other uses 10-15IUs...basically showing elevation but not relation to the EXACT concentration.

That's a good one also....

 

[muscle96ss]

Let me backtrack and clarify what I am saying as I think we are on the same page for most things and only have a couple items of disparity.

I believe in order that the most useful tests in determining the quantity of GH(only lab testing will tell you the quality) are:
1.) Lab testing
2.) IGF-1
3.) Serum GH

However, lab testing is not feasible economically or logistically to be performed for multiple vials and repeated through various time intervals(i.e. every couple months). Based on the nature of the UG business, that is necessary due to shady sources and shady manufacturers.

Now on to IGF-1 testing. For me, it is my belief that it takes a few weeks for levels to build up. So, I do my IGF-1 at 3-4 weeks out. That means that if I am taking 4iu per day then I am wasting an entire 100iu kit and a few weeks before I know anything about my GH.

So, I simply do a serum GH as a screening tool before I run the GH to know if I even want to waste my time or not using it.

Yes, the serum GH test is the least reliable, but its the cheapest and the easiest and it is excellent as a screening tool to determine if you want to do further testing. Also, if you have a complete body of work like I do, then it will give you a rough idea of the quantity. Like I said before, all my serum scores from low to high have corresponding IGF-1 scores that rank the same. So, at least for me, that works!

 

[muscle96ss]

I'll find it for ya buddy....I've also got multiple Blood Results that show Baseline to Elevated IGF1 (with dates to prove what I did)

You can 'Google' what I posted for now. Tons of info

Also, there's 2 different clinical studies (Norditropin and Genotropin/Omnitrope)

Both show GH Serum Elevation (Similar)

One study uses 5IUs...the other uses 10-15IUs...basically showing elevation but not relation to the EXACT concentration.

That's a good one also....

What I am looking for, is the actual text from the study where I can see that multiple subjects did one subq injection and doubled their IGF-1 levels without any other injections. That is our main point of contention.

I am not contending that I can see a serum score from Joe X and figure his IGF-1 score; because I can't. However, if I have seen a whole bunch of Joe X's serum scores and their corresponding IGF-1 scores; then I bet I could.

 

[ProfessorX]

The therapeutic effects of GH are mediated by IGF1. IGF1-binding proteins (IGFBPs) play important regulatory roles in controlling the bioavailability and action of IGF1, and are regulated by various factors including GH. About 90% of IGF1 is bound to IGFBP3. Because rhGH preparations induce significant increases in IGF1, IGFBP3, and non-esterified fatty acid (NEFA) related to GH mechanism of action, these molecules are accepted as pharmacodynamic (PD) parameters for GH activity;however, the spurious relationship between serum IGF1 levels and growth response precludes the use of IGF1 as a surrogate marker for efficacy.



So Again, 4 weeks is not needed for IGF1...GH Serum can be replaced with IGF1

The Protocol can be simplified with IGF1 only

The Issue with the GH Serums at PM is that the "Numbers" are being used as an Advertising Tool that the Higher Numbers mean the GH is better.

It's very MISLEADING to the members there

Our Recent Black Top High GH Serums with Low IGF1 test is a great example

Also, if you are only doing 4IUs.....saturation/constant peak 7 days approx (IGF1 400s)

 

[muscle96ss]

The therapeutic effects of GH are mediated by IGF1. IGF1-binding proteins (IGFBPs) play important regulatory roles in controlling the bioavailability and action of IGF1, and are regulated by various factors including GH. About 90% of IGF1 is bound to IGFBP3. Because rhGH preparations induce significant increases in IGF1, IGFBP3, and non-esterified fatty acid (NEFA) related to GH mechanism of action, these molecules are accepted as pharmacodynamic (PD) parameters for GH activity;however, the spurious relationship between serum IGF1 levels and growth response precludes the use of IGF1 as a surrogate marker for efficacy.

View attachment 32367 View attachment 32368 View attachment 32369

So Again, 4 weeks is not needed for IGF1...GH Serum can be replaced with IGF1

The Protocol can be simplified with IGF1 only

The Issue with the GH Serums at PM is that the "Numbers" are being used as an Advertising Tool that the Higher Numbers mean the GH is better.

It's very MISLEADING to the members there

Our Recent Black Top High GH Serums with Low IGF1 test is a great example

Also, if you are only doing 4IUs.....saturation/constant peak 7 days approx (IGF1 400s)

Actually it has been suggested that the therapeutic effects are not solely mediated by IGF-1. We have been discussing this recently in the thread on PM and member busamuscle has presented some interesting studies that suggest there are other variables in play.

Anyway, I am still looking for the actual data that shows I can inject my GH subq and then go get a IGF-1 test a couple hours later and have a substantial raise. The data you posted I believe are your lab scans and not that from an actual study. I have seen lab scans similar from IM injections and they do not show a raise in IGF-1. So I want to see some science and explanation, not just your lab scans. In fact, if what you are saying is true, I would be willing to bet that members Racepicks or buck would be more than willing to run an experiment and see how it turns out. I have already talked to RP briefly and he will be reaching out to you shortly if he hasn't already; as if we can all work together that would be ideal.