MALDI-TOF-MS/HPLC-UV-VIS rHGH results

[ProfessorX]

Actually it has been suggested that the therapeutic effects are not solely mediated by IGF-1. We have been discussing this recently in the thread on PM and member busamuscle has presented some interesting studies that suggest there are other variables in play.

Anyway, I am still looking for the actual data that shows I can inject my GH subq and then go get a IGF-1 test a couple hours later and have a substantial raise. The data you posted I believe are your lab scans and not that from an actual study. I have seen lab scans similar from IM injections and they do not show a raise in IGF-1. So I want to see some science and explanation, not just your lab scans. In fact, if what you are saying is true, I would be willing to bet that members Racepicks or buck would be more than willing to run an experiment and see how it turns out. I have already talked to RP briefly and he will be reaching out to you shortly if he hasn't already; as if we can all work together that would be ideal.

It's all there M. The first graph Omnitrope/Genotropin has all the information:

IGF1/IGFBP3 elevation 3.3mg/5mg/6.7mg (one SubQ inject)

My 2 personal IGF1/IGFBP3 results mimic that study (Elevating IGFBP3 and doubling my IGF1 within hours)

Again, as I mentioned before....."Matt" from GODTropin understands now that IGF1 correlates with "dose" and has been doing his own IGF1 testing. No longer focusing on GH Serums

After some very low IGF1 results, yet extremely high GH Serums from some testing kits (Black Tops)....I believe the ANGTropin source will be following as well

 

[muscle96ss]

It's all there M. The first graph Omnitrope/Genotropin has all the information:

IGF1/IGFBP3 elevation 3.3mg/5mg/6.7mg (one SubQ inject)

My 2 personal IGF1/IGFBP3 results mimic that study (Elevating IGFBP3 and doubling my IGF1 within hours)

Again, as I mentioned before....."Matt" from GODTropin understands now that IGF1 correlates with "dose" and has been doing his own IGF1 testing. No longer focusing on GH Serums

After some very low IGF1 results, yet extremely high GH Serums from some testing kits (Black Tops)....I believe the ANGTropin source will be following as well

Its not all there, it simply states the mean value after a 5mg injection of a few different preparations. But it doesn't state the duration after the 15iu injection, the baseline IGF-1 before the injection, or any individual values at all; simply a mean with the SD. Please post the actual text or a link where I can read the actual study.

 

[Buck1973]

Brutha....I feel your pain on this one.....but you're referring to your "data posted on PM" as Science when in fact it's just BroScience or Bro'Lore.

You continue that GH Serums have "accurate data" and you are still saying "IGF1 levels take time to build up"

All of that is FALSE

I can double my IGF1 level with only one SubQ inject. Double it within Hours

IGF1 Serum responds to EXO GH similar to GH Serums

IGF1 is more STABLE AND CAN REFLECT DOSE...GH Serums DO NOT (accurately)

"Doctors can't simply test for the level of growth hormone (GH) in your body because the level varies so much in one day—even in someone without acromegaly. That means that a doctor could randomly test for GH and get a normal level in a person with acromegaly. However, because of GH fluctuations, the doctor could also test GH levels in someone without acromegaly and get a level far above normal.

Therefore, doctors rely on IGF-1

Just switch to doing IGF1s.......IGF1 reflects Dose (mg/IU)

Quit wasting $ and time on those GH Serums....and replace it with MS/HPLC

Trust me.....with the recent Xtremely Elevated Black Top GH Serums....and the low IGF1s....the SIMEC results will just prove what I'm trying to tell ya

30-50ng/mL (GH Serum) Sold as 10IU Vials (underdosed by half or more)

QUIT PUSHING GH SERUMS

i qwick question.
If as you state you can double Igf-1 levels with a few IU's of Hgh a few hours later.
so to use your xample a Dr. could get a High HGH reading in a person without acromegaly if they tested close to a endog.pulse or a exo. administration.
So If they tested for IGF-1 a few hours after a Endo Pulse than that reading should be High as well so we would have a High IGF-1 reading in a person that does not have Acromegaly..

In a serum test , The process as I understand it is;we inject HGh and it works it way in a relatively predictable way and time into the blood whether sq or im. and we hope to find the time of maxium saturation (peak ) levels in the blood.
then we draw and make a determination. many things affect this., diet timing heart rate ect.ect.
Those steps are exactly the same for a IGF-1 test to that point But further events must happen in the process to test IGF-1. After it goes through all those steps now it has to get to the Liver and be processed into IGF-1 then a blood draw is trying to catch that level so it s a few steps further and alot more has to happen which leaves alot more variables it would seem.
so a HGH serum tests the amount of HGH in the blood at the time of draw.
A IGF-1 test the amount of IGF-1 in the blood at the time of draw. the difference being is that there are alot more events that must happen to do that above the HGH serum. Mainly the conversion of HGH into IGF-1 ( amount , how fast, efficiency,ect.ect.) xtra unknown variables..
This is my understandin.
I also am very familiar with the HGH testin thread and protocols that were used @ PM
As a tester I would be Open to any educational testin to substantiate or disprove any plausible theories..
More so I am a proponent of unbiased MS/HPLC testin...

Peace....

 

[ProfessorX]

i qwick question.
If as you state you can double Igf-1 levels with a few IU's of Hgh a few hours later.
so to use your xample a Dr. could get a High HGH reading in a person without acromegaly if they tested close to a endog.pulse or a exo. administration.
So If they tested for IGF-1 a few hours after a Endo Pulse than that reading should be High as well so we would have a High IGF-1 reading in a person that does not have Acromegaly..

In a serum test , The process as I understand it is;we inject HGh and it works it way in a relatively predictable way and time into the blood whether sq or im. and we hope to find the time of maxium saturation (peak ) levels in the blood.
then we draw and make a determination. many things affect this., diet timing heart rate ect.ect.
Those steps are exactly the same for a IGF-1 test to that point But further events must happen in the process to test IGF-1. After it goes through all those steps now it has to get to the Liver and be processed into IGF-1 then a blood draw is trying to catch that level so it s a few steps further and alot more has to happen which leaves alot more variables it would seem.
so a HGH serum tests the amount of HGH in the blood at the time of draw.
A IGF-1 test the amount of IGF-1 in the blood at the time of draw. the difference being is that there are alot more events that must happen to do that above the HGH serum. Mainly the conversion of HGH into IGF-1 ( amount , how fast, efficiency,ect.ect.) xtra unknown variables..
This is my understandin.
I also am very familiar with the HGH testin thread and protocols that were used @ PM
As a tester I would be Open to any educational testin to substantiate or disprove any plausible theories..
More so I am a proponent of unbiased MS/HPLC testin...

Peace....

Buck

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying (sorry)
What I'm trying to relate to Muscle is the GH Serum testing "numbers"

Recent Quotes from PM
(Higher number is better) (GH Serum results reflect concentration)

This is not accurate. Here's an example. (I hope I'm on the same page with you here)

After doing some Blood Work for ANGTropin:

GH Serum in the single digits (7ng 9ng 10ng)

Doubled my IGF1 after a single SubQ Inject

Elevating my IGF1:

IGF1 540 after the 3rd 6IU SubQ inject

IGF1 683 after the 8th 6IU SubQ inject

Because the GH Serum was so low and I elevated my IGF1 so high and very quickly.....everyone swore it was a PepTide combo (IGF1)

I knew differently because of all the reading (clinical studies) with Blood Work I've done

So.....I had already had a Protein Analysis done (UPLC-MS) on the ANGTropin. It was a very pure GH Protein

SIMEC Tested the ANGTropin at 17.9 IUs

So my point is no one would really know what the ANGTropin REALLY contained without Lab Analysis because the GH Serum results would seem to point in a different direction

LabCorp GH Serum Test (amount of GH Protein in Blood)(Short Half Life,unstable, unreliable)

SIMEC MS/HPLC (amount of GH in the vial)

We have some new Black Top samples that have the opposite GH Serum results

Very High (30-50ng/mL)

But these are actually underdosed. SIMEC has these samples now

Low/High GH Serums Do Not reflect "purity" "strength" "concentration" accurately

IGF1 reflects DOSE (mg/IU)

I hope I didn't go too far off subject

 

[iintensity]

Buck

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying (sorry)
What I'm trying to relate to Muscle is the GH Serum testing "numbers"

Recent Quotes from PM
(Higher number is better) (GH Serum results reflect concentration)

This is not accurate. Here's an example. (I hope I'm on the same page with you here)

After doing some Blood Work for ANGTropin:

GH Serum in the single digits (7ng 9ng 10ng)

Doubled my IGF1 after a single SubQ Inject

Elevating my IGF1:

IGF1 540 after the 3rd 6IU SubQ inject

IGF1 683 after the 8th 6IU SubQ inject

Because the GH Serum was so low and I elevated my IGF1 so high and very quickly.....everyone swore it was a PepTide combo (IGF1)

I knew differently because of all the reading (clinical studies) with Blood Work I've done

So.....I had already had a Protein Analysis done (UPLC-MS) on the ANGTropin. It was a very pure GH Protein

SIMEC Tested the ANGTropin at 17.9 IUs

So my point is no one would really know what the ANGTropin REALLY contained without Lab Analysis because the GH Serum results would seem to point in a different direction

LabCorp GH Serum Test (amount of GH Protein in Blood)(Short Half Life,unstable, unreliable)

SIMEC MS/HPLC (amount of GH in the vial)

We have some new Black Top samples that have the opposite GH Serum results

Very High (30-50ng/mL)

But these are actually underdosed. SIMEC has these samples now

Low/High GH Serums Do Not reflect "purity" "strength" "concentration" accurately

IGF1 reflects DOSE (mg/IU)

I hope I didn't go too far off subject

Simec told me they can't offer HPLC-MS. Only HPLC.

 

[ProfessorX]

Simec told me they can't offer HPLC-MS. Only HPLC.

Results Posted: (Sorry)

SIMEC - HPLC
Protein Analysis - UPLC-MS/MS (Q-Exactive Orbitrap)

 

[ProfessorX]

Its not all there, it simply states the mean value after a 5mg injection of a few different preparations. But it doesn't state the duration after the 15iu injection, the baseline IGF-1 before the injection, or any individual values at all; simply a mean with the SD. Please post the actual text or a link where I can read the actual study.

Brutha it really is. I posted the chart to make it simple.

My Bood Work (IGF1 249-260 IGFBP3 4803) mirrors the results of one SubQ Inject (5mgs)
I can actually double my IGF1 from Baseline with only 5IUs
(NORDITROPIN study using only 5IUs GH Serum 30-80ng/mL)

Again, different studies using different mg/IUs with no real accurate correlation to GH Serums (ng/mL - mg/IU)

The Study is Many, Many pages brutha. I don't want to get into a copy n paste extravaganza here so:

Methods: Two randomized, double-blind, single-dose, three-way crossover studies were carried out in 36 young healthy volunteers each. Endogenous GH secretion was suppressed with a 25-h continuous i.v. infusion of octreotide (40 μg/h) starting 1 h before rhGH administration.

Pharmacodynamics
IGF1 is the preferred pharmacodynamic marker for the activity of somatropin and is, together with IGFBP3, recommended to be used in comparative pharmacodynamic studies

Also, the immediate elevation of IGF1 indicates GH, not a peptide

The only issue here is GH Serums. I'm just try to shed some useful Info

And I've posted some info (Blood Work/SIMEC) showing Low GH Serum, yet "Overdosed" GH

I'll post the High GH Serum, "Underdosed" Black Top vial(s) when I get the results back from SIMEC

Again, there's a very simple IGF1 protocol that's more useful than all those GH Serums

BUT, if PROMOTING and ADVERTISING (50.7 Russkie Red Top!!) is what PM is all about....then I'll just keep my SIMEC results to myself

 

[Rick Kane]

Thank you @muscle96ss and @ProfessorX for getting this thread back on track.

I've been on Russkies gh for over one month at 4ius/d, same dose as greytops. I will be doing an IGF test this week.

 

[rpbb]

I guess it would be usefuul to ask the guys at pm if they would get some pharmacy grade, get their baselines, and have them check their igf levels when they do their serum tests.

 

[ProfessorX]

I guess it would be usefuul to ask the guys at pm if they would get some pharmacy grade, get their baselines, and have them check their igf levels when they do their serum tests.

Brutha rpbb.....you are the mane!

That's basically it. Very simple. Doing a legit Pharma run (5IUs...pull IGF1 after 8-10 days)

After that.....do the same with the Generics and compare

Not as EXCITING as all those GH Serums

Again, at PM....I get lost in all the GH Serums with IGF1s running together kit after kit with no "wash out"

Also, Blood Work only tells so much

 

[Buck1973]

Buck

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying (sorry)
What I'm trying to relate to Muscle is the GH Serum testing "numbers"

Recent Quotes from PM
(Higher number is better) (GH Serum results reflect concentration)

This is not accurate. Here's an example. (I hope I'm on the same page with you here)

After doing some Blood Work for ANGTropin:

GH Serum in the single digits (7ng 9ng 10ng)

Doubled my IGF1 after a single SubQ Inject

Elevating my IGF1:

IGF1 540 after the 3rd 6IU SubQ inject

IGF1 683 after the 8th 6IU SubQ inject

Because the GH Serum was so low and I elevated my IGF1 so high and very quickly.....everyone swore it was a PepTide combo (IGF1)

I knew differently because of all the reading (clinical studies) with Blood Work I've done

So.....I had already had a Protein Analysis done (UPLC-MS) on the ANGTropin. It was a very pure GH Protein

SIMEC Tested the ANGTropin at 17.9 IUs

So my point is no one would really know what the ANGTropin REALLY contained without Lab Analysis because the GH Serum results would seem to point in a different direction

LabCorp GH Serum Test (amount of GH Protein in Blood)(Short Half Life,unstable, unreliable)

SIMEC MS/HPLC (amount of GH in the vial)

We have some new Black Top samples that have the opposite GH Serum results

Very High (30-50ng/mL)

But these are actually underdosed. SIMEC has these samples now

Low/High GH Serums Do Not reflect "purity" "strength" "concentration" accurately

IGF1 reflects DOSE (mg/IU)

I hope I didn't go too far off subject

What i was trying to xpress is if the IGF-1 test is so qwick to react (a few hours elevation after a HGH injection similar to a Serum test.) wouldnt it be hard to capture a stable IGF-1 reading as far as timing our draw? I would think if it increases IGF-1 levels that qwickly the reverse should be true as well It should decrease as qwickly.
So If our IGF-1 draw time was 2 hours Versus 23 hours Post Injection would our levels be similar????
Correct me If I am Wrong,
Reading The Labs that You just posted. Ang. State 10IU's P/Vial and actually are 17.5 IU's P/V.
Hygs state 3.3 MGs. P/V and are actually 1,06....
and the Hyg Bios claim 3.3 MGs. P/V are 2.87...

So when you say that you injected 6 IU's of the Angs.and did the IGF-1 test
I am assuming that was 60% of a vial which turned out to be 10.5 IU's. after These content findings....

 

[ProfessorX]

What i was trying to xpress is if the IGF-1 test is so qwick to react (a few hours elevation after a HGH injection similar to a Serum test.) wouldnt it be hard to capture a stable IGF-1 reading as far as timing our draw? I would think if it increases IGF-1 levels that qwickly the reverse should be true as well It should decrease as qwickly.
So If our IGF-1 draw time was 2 hours Versus 23 hours Post Injection would our levels be similar????
Correct me If I am Wrong,
Reading The Labs that You just posted. Ang. State 10IU's P/Vial and actually are 17.5 IU's P/V.
Hygs state 3.3 MGs. P/V and are actually 1,06....
and the Hyg Bios claim 3.3 MGs. P/V are 2.87...

So when you say that you injected 6 IU's of the Angs.and did the IGF-1 test
I am assuming that was 60% of a vial which turned out to be 10.5 IU's. after These content findings....

I hope I'm following you here:

Yes...the ANGTropin was "overdosed" at 17.5IUs

I reconstituted as a 10IU vial so I really was Injecting more than 6IUs (10ish)

My comparison IGF1 would indicate that:

ANGTropin - on the 8th inject of 6IUs (10ish) IGF1 683
GODTropin - on the 8th inject of 6IUs IGF1 487

IGF1 reflect "dose"
The Low GH Serums did not indicate the ANG vials were actually more than 10ius

Doing 10IUs would need 4 weeks (approx) to reach saturation/constant peak

Doing 5IUs only 8-10day saturation/constant peak

 

[ProfessorX]

Thank you @muscle96ss and @ProfessorX for getting this thread back on track.

I've been on Russkies gh for over one month at 4ius/d, same dose as greytops. I will be doing an IGF test this week.

I know you don't but some guys were doing this.....don't inject an entire vial before getting IGF1.

Will JIM and MANDS come back to testing? I'm not an active member here, so I don't know all the politics. Would be cool if they did.

 

[rpbb]

I know you don't but some guys were doing this.....don't inject an entire vial before getting IGF1.

Will JIM and MANDS come back to testing? I'm not an active member here, so I don't know all the politics. Would be cool if they did.

I wish they would, I learn a lot from those guys.

 

[Stas]

This is from Private Blood Tests website :

Fasting for 12 hours is required for this test

Did you guys fasting for 12 h before IGF 1 test?

 

[rpbb]

Its not all there, it simply states the mean value after a 5mg injection of a few different preparations. But it doesn't state the duration after the 15iu injection, the baseline IGF-1 before the injection, or any individual values at all; simply a mean with the SD. Please post the actual text or a link where I can read the actual study.

Muscle, I tried to post up in the hgh testing thread, but I guess I don't have enough posts yet to allow me to do that. But I wanted to ask if anyone has done any igf testing on the blacktops that everyone is getting so enthusiastic about. Also, if there is any plans to do more hplc testing. In no way is this a criticism of what they are doing over there, I'm just greedy and want more

 

[ProfessorX]

This is from Private Blood Tests website :

Fasting for 12 hours is required for this test

Did you guys fasting for 12 h before IGF 1 test?

I did not for any of my IGF1s that I recall

I don't follow a "protocol" anymore for IGF1s

I'm done with GH Serums (unless I'm trying to prove a point)

 

[ProfessorX]

MUSCLE96ss
"In fact, look at any studies where IGF-1 levels from exogenous GH were measured over a decent sample size; you will see a ton of variability."

This is my point M....I see members at PM mentioning inconsistent IGF1 results

(Again, I have a very hard time following....I see 20ius...10ius..then an IGF1 pulled after only one week, etc. There's no accurate IGF1 protocol. Only GH Serum)

Anyway....inconsistent IGF1s (if a reliable protocol is established) would indicate inconsistent concentrations

 

[muscle96ss]

It's all there M. The first graph Omnitrope/Genotropin has all the information:

IGF1/IGFBP3 elevation 3.3mg/5mg/6.7mg (one SubQ inject)

My 2 personal IGF1/IGFBP3 results mimic that study (Elevating IGFBP3 and doubling my IGF1 within hours)

Again, as I mentioned before....."Matt" from GODTropin understands now that IGF1 correlates with "dose" and has been doing his own IGF1 testing. No longer focusing on GH Serums

After some very low IGF1 results, yet extremely high GH Serums from some testing kits (Black Tops)....I believe the ANGTropin source will be following as well

Its all there? The first graph? Maybe I am misunderstanding something here but I don't see any graphs, just charts. I don't see anything showing a scientific study with baseline IGF-1 readings and then IGF-1 readings after one subq injection. Please show me where the information is that I keep requesting because if it is posted I am somehow not seeing it.

 

[muscle96ss]

Buck

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying (sorry)
What I'm trying to relate to Muscle is the GH Serum testing "numbers"

Recent Quotes from PM
(Higher number is better) (GH Serum results reflect concentration)

This is not accurate. Here's an example. (I hope I'm on the same page with you here)

After doing some Blood Work for ANGTropin:

GH Serum in the single digits (7ng 9ng 10ng)

Doubled my IGF1 after a single SubQ Inject

Elevating my IGF1:

IGF1 540 after the 3rd 6IU SubQ inject

IGF1 683 after the 8th 6IU SubQ inject

Because the GH Serum was so low and I elevated my IGF1 so high and very quickly.....everyone swore it was a PepTide combo (IGF1)

I knew differently because of all the reading (clinical studies) with Blood Work I've done

So.....I had already had a Protein Analysis done (UPLC-MS) on the ANGTropin. It was a very pure GH Protein

SIMEC Tested the ANGTropin at 17.9 IUs

So my point is no one would really know what the ANGTropin REALLY contained without Lab Analysis because the GH Serum results would seem to point in a different direction

LabCorp GH Serum Test (amount of GH Protein in Blood)(Short Half Life,unstable, unreliable)

SIMEC MS/HPLC (amount of GH in the vial)

We have some new Black Top samples that have the opposite GH Serum results

Very High (30-50ng/mL)

But these are actually underdosed. SIMEC has these samples now

Low/High GH Serums Do Not reflect "purity" "strength" "concentration" accurately

IGF1 reflects DOSE (mg/IU)

I hope I didn't go too far off subject

A couple of points:

Firstly, on a number of occasions you have stated that IGF-1 reflects does(mg/iu). It is correct in that the higher the dose the higher the IGF-1. However, it is not a linear relationship. In other words an IGF-1 on 5iu will not yield half the result of 10iu. In addition, the response to the dosage is based on many individual variables just as the serum GH test is. In fact, one extremely important variable is liver function. You can take all the GH in the world, but if your liver doesn't process it properly, it will never convert it to IGF-1. I don't know if you realize how important that step is in the process. So, in the bodybuilding community where we take other drugs that can harm the liver, you can get very variable IGF-1 scores among different individuals on the same dosage simply based on their liver health. Buck1973 understand this first hand as his individual IGF-1 levels vary greatly at times depending on how high his liver enzymes are.

Secondly, while I am still waiting to see the scientific proof that 1 subq injection can double IGF-1 levels; on the surface it defies logic. IGF-1 is used in the medical community as the test to monitor the effectiveness of GH treatment. The reason that it is used is because of the stability or lack of fluctuation of IGF-1 levels throughout the day. If one subq dosage could double IGF-1 levels in 2 hours then would completely nullify the basis for which it is being used. The medical community would then either be completely oblivious to the science or we would be seeing lots of errors being reported in these tests as many would be skewed depending on when the patient took their last injection or even their normal pulsatile rythym would have some effect. So, as a person of logic, I am having a real tough time buying this.