MESO-Rx

Anabolic Steroids

Mass Spec Thread

I don't have little faith, I am confident we will achieve a lab. My post was emphatically posted towards finding a lab, rather than worrying about methodology of testing, since that is further down the line. And to be honest, no matter what methodology that we use, someone will dispute it.

I only started posting in this thread because somewhere back, someone was trying to dispute the validity of mass spec testing in general, calling it a form of pseudo science.

Bottom line I believe, is to find a lab, then worry about how the testing will be conducted on our end (who sends in samples etc). The best we can hope to achieve here is to have transparency, just like in real research. So we can expose the limitations, but also bring real data to the table.

Real science never claims to know for 100%, hence probability. Well maybe chemists claim 100%, but I come from psychological research, where theories and data points change all the time, and there are many different disciplines at the moment.
 
Sorry maybe purity was the wrong word for the 7 panel, it detects above a certain threshold. So you are correct, I was merely trying to point out that there are many tests that are cheap and accessible for other compounds and not for steroids. Thank you for the gas lesson.
 
4leafclover said:
Sorry maybe purity was the wrong word for the 7 panel, it detects above a certain threshold. So you are correct, I was merely trying to point out that there are many tests that are cheap and accessible for other compounds and not for steroids. Thank you for the gas lesson.
Click to expand...
My pleasure..However the "gas lesson" may be just the ticket to finding a lab. Im afraid the concept of transparency as you define it is to be able to scrutinize the technicians and engineers work. I as a software engineer would not want an auto mechanic(no slam against auto mechs.) to be calling me and saying " hey Bud" I think you F***ed up my algorithmic analysis.
Please define,if you will transparency as you may for us. And at the expense of sounding like a total dickhead...would an average man on the street even know how to turn on the system much less choose a column and install it or even program the system much less verify the validity of the results. Shite, even the engineers rely soley on the results of the fractal comparisons of the MS!

Psychology/psychiatry relies on qualitative processes not quantitative analysis. Can we as scientists be sure the andromeda galaxy is 2.4X10^19 light years distant? yes we can through Hubbels Constant and the red shift of light. Though my wife is a psychiatrist, she freely admits it is a "science" which only gained limited acceptance in the early 20th century to treat shell-shocked WWI victims. and later lobotomies and electroshock therapy. But I digress.
Yes we must find a lab but to an extent I can almost guarantee no lab will allow an outsider within a mile of the equipment. They will not field calls from everyone who has sent in a sample(newbs) nor are they going to debate with you on their processes or prove the validity of the results.You been to a mechanics shop lately? even they dont let you into their bays and scientists are a wee bit more touchy by necessity.
This has been my experience..if they show me a chromatogram that has a number around 75-85+ % I'll pin it. hell Ive even pinned 60% and gained. but one ugl who shall remain nameless, I got 12% and that went into the trash. If you want a lab to test to confirm the hormone is in fact what you hope and the concentration..thats one price. If you want a bacteriocidal exam..POW..another test another fee! If you want all the impurities identified..Bam another fee. See the reason is each test requires another method(not another machine) So what do we want? I want it to be what I bought and i want the concentration.

That is we MUST have sources comply with the SCOC,ergo posting pix of the labs. Too many of them slip through the cracks. Some on the guise of being mere "resellers(Granabolic),etc This is truly a manifold issue Brothers at arms! Hell who says we cant pull a switcheroo on occasion and have a bacteriological sample done on occasion if its warranted?
Transparency is a very vague term. Very Obamaesque. And after all of his rhetoric we are no more nearer to transparency then when Hoover ran the FBI! Form a committee and decide the constructs of exactly what that means to us. By now some of my friends may be saying"Fu** Goose") I hope not..I lose enough sleep at night worrying important things.

Guys,Im only trying to make the it to where we solve certain issues before we seek out a lab. If we go in their half-cocked we can kiss the concept of even having a GOOD lab goodbye.

There is much to discuss and debate before the decision is made to find a lab. I got lucky because I went to University many years ago with a fellow while obtaining a degree in Mathematics who at a reunion turned up to be a business development coordinator of just such a lab. An unlikely roll of the dice to be sure. He knows Im not writing a book on the prevalence of performance enhancing drugs in America. But I still pay the same price as any pharma company or other chemical purveyor. NOTHING can be put onto the market until the FDA gets that certification from a lab. Well, no food,cosmetics,tobacco products,drugs,etc anyway.

Goose
 
Even when math was introduced, it took some time to be vetted, just like psychology is going through now. If you explore some fields of psychology they aren't as qualitative as you put it. Molecular biology, psycho-pharmacology and neuroscience come to mind. If you are talking about the roots of original psychology, most of those aren't practiced anymore, save psychotherapy. But behavioral science has proven through quantitative analysis to yield many fruitful techniques for treating disorders. This is one of the many things America has brought to the field, a yearning for actual data, and less fluff.

If you are a practicing psychologist, then sure, you have lots of room to use what techniques you want, some more effective than others, as using the best techniques aren't enforced in American licensing. I don't like the treatment side, I (when in college) worked out of the research side.

Transparency in scientific terms is not obamaessque, as it's been practiced since science was invented. Transparency as I see it, is the same, you publish your methodology for mutual dissection in the community.

I feel like you arguing the same points I am...

I fail to see what needs to be debated before looking for a lab, we need an actual way to test in real terms, the products we use. Both to reduce harm to our community and provide a way to hold UGL's accountable to higher standards of production, since they aren't regulated by any FDA and none of their claims are authenticated by any third party.

Of course some thought does need to be given to how we will handle the backlash as Millard has pointed out, but if we don't blaze a trail, who will?
 
4leafclover said:
TBH, I think we should focus on finding a lab first. All this other stuff is backwash if you can't find a good lab to start with.

Millard, have you talked to Astro, he has said he can make his lab available to vets for testing, maybe talk with him and see if you like what you hear?
Click to expand...
Although vets make up the core of this community here on MESO,kind of like the Sergeants and other NCO's,Im going to go out on a limb to include the Newbs who reside here too.
Often the least among us is the most important(some exceptions!) They look to the guys whove been around awhile for guidance(sometimes). Its kinda like an AA meeting,its the guy who just walked in after his last drunk who needs the vets help the most. EVERYONE of us here was a NEWB once. Lets not discount them just because they are new. when they sign up they become members of this MESO community. Isnt that what an open uncensored board kind of means or am I trying to fire from an empty mag? Just my humble opinion

Goose
 
The EU-based Sincopharm doesn't perform AAS testing for the purposes we require. Even if the labs do not to offer harm reduction type testing for AAS users, I want to list them here as a reference. So far, we have direct refusals from Drug Detection Laboratories, Microtrace and Sincopharm.
 
brutus79 said:
taylor hooten- thats the kid who killed himself because of his ssri meds, right?
:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The cause of Taylor Hooton's death is death by asphyxiation (hanging). That's the only thing known for certain. No one really seemed interested in determining the true cause(s) for his depression/suicide. It is complicated/multi-factorial.
 
Millard Baker said:
The cause of Taylor Hooton's death is death by asphyxiation (hanging). That's the only thing known for certain. No one really seemed interested in determining the true cause(s) for his depression/suicide. It is complicated/multi-factorial.
Click to expand...
I had a girlfriend who died from hanging after she stopped taking her celexa.... but it was probably just the var she took 7 years prior
 
4leafclover said:
Even when math was introduced, it took some time to be vetted, just like psychology is going through now. If you explore some fields of psychology they aren't as qualitative as you put it. Molecular biology, psycho-pharmacology and neuroscience come to mind. If you are talking about the roots of original psychology, most of those aren't practiced anymore, save psychotherapy. But behavioral science has proven through quantitative analysis to yield many fruitful techniques for treating disorders. This is one of the many things America has brought to the field, a yearning for actual data, and less fluff.

If you are a practicing psychologist, then sure, you have lots of room to use what techniques you want, some more effective than others, as using the best techniques aren't enforced in American licensing. I don't like the treatment side, I (when in college) worked out of the research side.

Transparency in scientific terms is not obamaessque, as it's been practiced since science was invented. Transparency as I see it, is the same, you publish your methodology for mutual dissection in the community.

I feel like you arguing the same points I am...

I fail to see what needs to be debated before looking for a lab, we need an actual way to test in real terms, the products we use. Both to reduce harm to our community and provide a way to hold UGL's accountable to higher standards of production, since they aren't regulated by any FDA and none of their claims are authenticated by any third party.

Of course some thought does need to be given to how we will handle the backlash as Millard has pointed out, but if we don't blaze a trail, who will?
Click to expand...

4leafclover said:
Even when math was introduced, it took some time to be vetted, just like psychology is going through now. If you explore some fields of psychology they aren't as qualitative as you put it. Molecular biology, psycho-pharmacology and neuroscience come to mind. If you are talking about the roots of original psychology, most of those aren't practiced anymore, save psychotherapy. But behavioral science has proven through quantitative analysis to yield many fruitful techniques for treating disorders. This is one of the many things America has brought to the field, a yearning for actual data, and less fluff.

If you are a practicing psychologist, then sure, you have lots of room to use what techniques you want, some more effective than others, as using the best techniques aren't enforced in American licensing. I don't like the treatment side, I (when in college) worked out of the research side.

Transparency in scientific terms is not obamaessque, as it's been practiced since science was invented. Transparency as I see it, is the same, you publish your methodology for mutual dissection in the community.

I feel like you arguing the same points I am...

I fail to see what needs to be debated before looking for a lab, we need an actual way to test in real terms, the products we use. Both to reduce harm to our community and provide a way to hold UGL's accountable to higher standards of production, since they aren't regulated by any FDA and none of their claims are authenticated by any third party.

Of course some thought does need to be given to how we will handle the backlash as Millard has pointed out, but if we don't blaze a trail, who will?
Click to expand...
Molecular biology,pharmacology and neurology are all hard sciences,i.e. quantitative. Can you prove by any blood test,tissue sample or any quantitative analysis that psychosocial,MMPI,or therapy works? NO! But I as a scientist will gladly shake your hand when you can.
OK..To the point,yet again,you must have the questions you will pose to the lab to achieve our goals. Try it just start calling labs and once you negotiate the vernacular and fill out the forms the BIG question is "what will this data be used for?" and we reply" cause I wanna know if my gear is gtg!" Click. or if by email(very common, it wont even make to the BDC).

The labs that ARE set up to do what we want are just about ALL FDA certified and have agreed to an ethics code, which can be pulled at the FDA's discretion and BOOM no more pharmas can use them cause they have lost their certification. To expound on this..Every a pharma submits required quarterly,ans spot-checks to the lab, they issue a certification to the pharma and the FDA relies on this certification that it is safe for the public..noe that is a big step. If that lab finds that the sample meets FDA standards the pharma,food producer,cosmetic or tobacco company can now or continue to market their products that means they are correct and carry HEAVY_HITTER status. These are NOT yokels. To try and just go out and contact labs without knowing what to say to them is folly.
Goose
 
Do we need an advocacy group? To help legitimize what we are asking for? I think this could be done and with the right political donations we might even have a politician or two to stand behind it. Educate some of the don't know crowd. I don't get how one can test for MDMA but we can't test AAS. This would obviously have to involve with some of us stepping out of the veil of secrecy. I don't know I have always assumed by my size that most people know they just don't ask. We need advocates right? If we can find a lab with out great but it won't be in the US. The way I look at it half the guys in my gym are over at the clinic anyways. All the cops for sure. So I don't get it maybe we just a need a political puSh and that is why I mention an advocacy group. I think about all my fellow military vets especially the ones that are still active there are a lot of them running around here chasing UGL anyone want to protect them. I remember when I was in it was always a look away kind of thing. I got mine from a civilian my Staff Sergeant introduced me to. Idk we need to keep blazing at finding a lab but we might need to start stepping out a little bit and looking for people to support our cause politically and financially. I have local influence and I know probably most know but I wonder what happens when I come out and say I do and plead for the cause.
 
I've discussed the issue with a very close, immediate family member that is a long-standing, respected member in my state legislature. He said no one would touch the issue for fear of personal, political repercussions. Granted, I live in a verrrrrry 'conservative' state, but here no democrat or republican would touch the issue.

Despite a large following, AAS are misunderstood by the general public, the VAST majority of the general public I'll say. Steroids = heroin to many so I get how it's a bad political move. We need more published medical information out there to educate IMO, or just more publicity in general. People fear what they don't understand
 
Fckit said:
I've discussed the issue with a very close, immediate family member that is a long-standing, respected member in my state legislature. He said no one would touch the issue for fear of personal, political repercussions. Granted, I live in a verrrrrry 'conservative' state, but here no democrat or republican would touch the issue.

Despite a large following, AAS are misunderstood by the general public, the VAST majority of the general public I'll say. Steroids = heroin to many so I get how it's a bad political move. We need more published medical information out there to educate IMO, or just more publicity in general. People fear what they don't understand
Click to expand...

I know you are probably right. I think though if people realized the number of males between the ages of 25-45 that use AAS they might think differently. I mean we all know how many try to pretend they are not on.

Anyways I am just hoping there is a lab out there.
 
Juice n Goose said:
Molecular biology,pharmacology and neurology are all hard sciences,i.e. quantitative. Can you prove by any blood test,tissue sample or any quantitative analysis that psychosocial,MMPI,or therapy works? NO! But I as a scientist will gladly shake your hand when you can.
OK..To the point,yet again,you must have the questions you will pose to the lab to achieve our goals. Try it just start calling labs and once you negotiate the vernacular and fill out the forms the BIG question is "what will this data be used for?" and we reply" cause I wanna know if my gear is gtg!" Click. or if by email(very common, it wont even make to the BDC).

The labs that ARE set up to do what we want are just about ALL FDA certified and have agreed to an ethics code, which can be pulled at the FDA's discretion and BOOM no more pharmas can use them cause they have lost their certification. To expound on this..Every a pharma submits required quarterly,ans spot-checks to the lab, they issue a certification to the pharma and the FDA relies on this certification that it is safe for the public..noe that is a big step. If that lab finds that the sample meets FDA standards the pharma,food producer,cosmetic or tobacco company can now or continue to market their products that means they are correct and carry HEAVY_HITTER status. These are NOT yokels. To try and just go out and contact labs without knowing what to say to them is folly.
Goose
Click to expand...
You're in a different field, so arguing with you is pointless. There are quantitative analysis done on cognitive behavioral therapy for OCD treatment, go to your research article database and look them up. Hand shake complete. They have MRI scans, F-MRI, and a variety of other quantitative studies done over the last 20 years. I find it funny that you want to lecture me on my field when you made a post about not taking someone else's comments from another field seriously when they comment on your own field.

I also hate to tell you, but the quantitative psychological fields you agreed to above, also regularly develop treatments (therapy) for a variety of disorders. Neuroscience just discovered the genetic markers for SID's in the last few years, and therapy is being developed as we speak to combat the genetic disorder. 2nd handshake complete. We are now friends.

Citations:
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/9829025
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763404001666
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=497532
 
4leafclover said:
You're in a different field, so arguing with you is pointless. There are quantitative analysis done on cognitive behavioral therapy for OCD treatment, go to your research article database and look them up. Hand shake complete. They have MRI scans, F-MRI, and a variety of other quantitative studies done over the last 20 years. I find it funny that you want to lecture me on my field when you made a post about not taking someone else's comments from another field seriously when they comment on your own field.

I also hate to tell you, but the quantitative psychological fields you agreed to above, also regularly develop treatments (therapy) for a variety of disorders. Neuroscience just discovered the genetic markers for SID's in the last few years, and therapy is being developed as we speak to combat the genetic disorder. 2nd handshake complete. We are now friends.

Citations:
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/9829025
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763404001666
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=497532
Click to expand...
Easy there 4leaf,I was just giving you a dose of good old Marine Corps Bullshite!
As I indicated my wife is a shrink,though she does the minimal talk to assess a patients status, she is there to diagnose and prescribe. She does,however,make constant referrals to the psychologists she works hand in glove with. And needless to say,I trust her emphatically.
Just some good old fashioned professional banter.
However, I still think if we are going to find a lab we shouldnt just bolt into action.I propose that we should devise a legitimate premise for requesting services. And I still dont understand what is meant by transparency. Is it with the inner workings of the lab? Are we going to each call them independently to bitch when we dont get the compound or purity we paid for? Or do you mean every person in the overall community,and I mean ugl's as well as other boards gain access to our lab(s)? Or do we, at Meso keep it to ourselves for at least awhile? Please expound on your thought process.
And BTW, I REALLY was just giving you, a fellow scientist, a good natured hard time. No offense intended!! Friends?!

Goose
 
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