Mass Spec Thread

[Voltrader]

So where is our sticking point on this. If we had "clearinghouse" that was only there for transfer of funds to the lab. Could we put the actual sending of samples on the individual? Eliminate one step of possible tampering. The only samples that can be sent will be unopened vials. Agree with the lab that they will not test if there has been any evidence of tampering. Could we not just have a open agreement and limit to say 50 samples a month.

Juice as to speaking to your guy he would only have one point of contact for the clearing house. The question would be would he be willing to take incoming samples from all over. I was thinking a committee where we can weed through those who want to send samples. Members could rotate since everything we do here is voluntary anyways and a bunch of us do have lives.

Just thoughts lets get the brainstorming process going there is a hole to be filled.

 

[Fckit]

I don't see how there is a way to go about this and completely remove the 'trust' factor. The rules and requirements of the lab(s) performing these tests need to be followed if they are going through the trouble (ie. One Clearing house, etc.) My thought is, so what? We, as a community, know who we trust here and who we don't. If a lab comes back less than stellar and plays the "these tests are BS" card, let them run off to other boards and talk shit. Mesonians know the truth, and ultimately that's who we need to protect to start. People will still get bloods, labmax, etc to cross check validity. I, for one, am willing to trust some of you guys until the system can be tweaked. My point being, let's get the ball rolling and disregard making this system completely perfect to start, as that is unlikely if not impossible at this point. Majority of Meso would agree to put some trust in a few vets bringing MS results. until we can figure out a better way at least.

 

[Juice n Goose]

So where is our sticking point on this. If we had "clearinghouse" that was only there for transfer of funds to the lab. Could we put the actual sending of samples on the individual? Eliminate one step of possible tampering. The only samples that can be sent will be unopened vials. Agree with the lab that they will not test if there has been any evidence of tampering. Could we not just have a open agreement and limit to say 50 samples a month.

Juice as to speaking to your guy he would only have one point of contact for the clearing house. The question would be would he be willing to take incoming samples from all over. I was thinking a committee where we can weed through those who want to send samples. Members could rotate since everything we do here is voluntary anyways and a bunch of us do have lives.

Just thoughts lets get the brainstorming process going there is a hole to be filled.

You know something Volt..I put in a call about 10MST to my contact at the lab and posed a number of questions to him in regard to many of our concerns and Im waiting a call back. He is the Business Development Coordinator, but He says he has to talk to the head

scientists and of course, his boss. He did express a measure of concern that what my previous experience with them was under the banner of first: education and secondly, harm reduction and he went further to say that my latest queries would have to be taken to the highest levels. I just dont think since he invoked a morality code the company relies on that they are going to allow people to send in samples independently..but that is, for now just a guess.
I kind of wish I hadnt provoked this BUT I will do my level best to make whatever I can happen for all the Bros out there who both need and want this scientific process to proceed. I AM a MESONIAN to the DEATH!!!
I am with Millard that it would be nice if this were a MESO thing!!

Goose

 

[Voltrader]

Interesting Goose and thanks for checking. The last thing we would want is for you to hurt any existing relationships you have. I to believe no matter where this goes it fly's under the Meso flag. We want to put the whole community on notice what Meso is trying to do to improve the health of the whole AAS Community. I know Milard is putting time in on his end to figure out a solution. Goose you just gave that let's go get em boys speech yesterday that fired me up.

You know something Volt..I put in a call about 10MST to my contact at the lab and posed a number of questions to him in regard to many of our concerns and Im waiting a call back. He is the Business Development Coordinator, but He says he has to talk to the head

scientists and of course, his boss. He did express a measure of concern that what my previous experience with them was under the banner of first: education and secondly, harm reduction and he went further to say that my latest queries would have to be taken to the highest levels. I just dont think since he invoked a morality code the company relies on that they are going to allow people to send in samples independently..but that is, for now just a guess.
I kind of wish I hadnt provoked this BUT I will do my level best to make whatever I can happen for all the Bros out there who both need and want this scientific process to proceed. I AM a MESONIAN to the DEATH!!!
I am with Millard that it would be nice if this were a MESO thing!!

Goose

 

[Juice n Goose]

Interesting Goose and thanks for checking. The last thing we would want is for you to hurt any existing relationships you have. I to believe no matter where this goes it fly's under the Meso flag. We want to put the whole community on notice what Meso is trying to do to improve the health of the whole AAS Community. I know Milard is putting time in on his end to figure out a solution. Goose you just gave that let's go get em boys speech yesterday that fired me up.

Folks, this MUST be a Meso enterprise as we need to do what is best for us members. But wouldnt it be cool to lead the pack in both sample validity and harm reduction!?
In a way, we Mesonians as an uncensored board are already out in front. People come here and just bitch and curse. Yes it can be a pain in the arse but God bless us for upholding their right to speak candidly!!
Furthermore,we need to again seriously, as was demonstrated by the men on the muscle factory and granabolic issues,we should get back to basics and REALLY clamp down on the new sources trying to breakout here!!! Let the COC RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Goose

 

[Juice n Goose]

I have a VERY unrelated question: what the heck are trophy points how does one give or receive them?
Goose

 

[alphastrength50]

lol theyre like different acoomplishments ie. number of posts or likes recieved given etc.

 

[Juice n Goose]

lol theyre like different acoomplishments ie. number of posts or likes recieved given etc.

thanks alpha..I feel like a dumb arse for asking.
Goose

 

[alphastrength50]

np brotha youre not a dumbass we all have questions!

 

[ChaseQ]

Maybe someone here can tell me...

If I have an oral but dont know what it is can it be identified or do does MSpec just tell you if it is or isnt the compound youre looking for? (Does that make any sense?)

 

[Colt44]

MS will identify the compound.

 

[4leafclover]

TBH, I think we should focus on finding a lab first. All this other stuff is backwash if you can't find a good lab to start with.

Millard, have you talked to Astro, he has said he can make his lab available to vets for testing, maybe talk with him and see if you like what you hear?

 

[mercury]

TBH, I think we should focus on finding a lab first. All this other stuff is backwash if you can't find a good lab to start with.

I have been looking for a lab for the past 10 years. I found one in Europe the cost was $800 per sample.

I knew one lab in New Jersey but it was 10 years ago, they will no longer accept steroids.

If you know somebody working in a lab you can have favour done but no lab will accept samples. LE sooner or later will pay visit. A lot of labs were fined and had problems.

 

[flenser]

We need to get a long term EDU study going, funded by an organization like NIDAC, on the impurities and "dangers" of illegal steroids purchased through UGLs. There have been several in recent years on narcotics that allowed anonymous samples to be submitted and analyzed. Don't know why aas gets so little attention.

 

[4leafclover]

We need to get a long term EDU study going, funded by an organization like NIDAC, on the impurities and "dangers" of illegal steroids purchased through UGLs. There have been several in recent years on narcotics that allowed anonymous samples to be submitted and analyzed. Don't know why aas gets so little attention.

I think because the testing for purity and even detecting steroids is harder overall than with other drugs. For instance a regular drug panel (7 screen) can detect the purity of most major drugs within the system. It cannot detect steroids or HGH. So far as we know, only a hormone detection panel or mass spectrum analysis can detect them. And sports hasn't really funded detection of these two substances like they have the others, so developing a lower cost solution hasn't really come from our healthcare system.

More than likely one will develop though, as several European sports system are starting to fund detection methods (Tour de France is one, I can't rem the other one). Go back two years, and HGH was completely undetectable, they have since developed a way to detect the difference in synthetic HGH vs. the real stuff (thanks to Lance Armstrong). It still has a half life detection, but, is far better than nothing.

I imagine over the next two years, we will see more options arise.

 

[Burrr]

I was checking out some labs in Colorado that test weed.
There is not a one size fits all mass spec.
They have one kind of test for THC content, another to check for pesticides,another to check for heavy metals, another to check for residual solvents, and even another to check for bacterial contamination.

 

[Juice n Goose]

I think one must first know how a gas chromatagraph works before pontificating on whether or not it can detect AAS hormones. Furthermore, I promise you if you get caught by LE they will NOT do a 7 panel on it! Half of a good operators job is to make qualified assumptions as to what the sample is in order to even choose the correct column to insert into the machines chromatograph.The mass spec. only provides legal confirmation of a chromatogram.
The US Olympic Committee and even local and state LE agencies have labs(smaller agencies often send samples to the state for testing, after several presumptive tests to narrow it down prior to GC/MS.Heck even your local Doc has access to this technology!If one has not himself been exposed to this technique of substance identification by the time he's reached Chemistry 211, He's at the wrong college. I assure you the technology is quite prevalent in our country.
Of,course there is not a "ONE SIZE FITS ALL MACHINE!!" that is highly irrelevant.What is relevant,however,is to establish a relationship with a NON-FDA certified lab which has the ability to test AAS. Since it comes in liquid form largely, I can assert from personal experience with GC/MS that this fact alone reduces cost merely by eliminating the most labor intensive aspect of testing since there is no need for sample rendering(preparation to insert into the injection port.Please lets focus our efforts in a way in which we can achieve our goal to be the forerunner in the community instead of making an atmosphere of senseless doom!

This is the country that first placed men on the moon! We have the most Nobel Prize winners by double(270) with only the UK following with 101. Geez man, first you try to flank the enemy before making a frontal assault...WE CAN DO THIS!!

GOOSE

 

[Burrr]

Of,course there is not a "ONE SIZE FITS ALL MACHINE!!" that is highly irrelevant

all of the mass specs posted in this thread have been from a one size fits all ESI-TOF mass spec.
I'm bringing up the point that this one test may not be reliable for giving us compound ID, concentration, and purity.

 

[4leafclover]

Hey, I posted 3 different kinds of mass spec! With the fourth option not being discussed. ESI-TOF should be reliable for giving compound ID, and concentration, since all forms of steroids are known compounds (at least all the ones we use, with the exception of designer steroids). As for purity, it goes off of stated ML vs concentration.
Hell, ESI-TOF can isolate new compounds, since if it has mass, and can be positively charged, it can be detected. This has more to do with the detection plates, than the actual machine used.

But, like I said before, this is all mute if we can't find a lab that will do ANY work. Hell, any mass spec is > than any lab max test, and that is what we are currently relying on. When I haven't even been able to find anything on labmax that discerns "high purity = blue", well at what % is "high purity" FFS. Since this is a chemical reaction, you would think the purity would be different for different compounds... I might be wrong on this one, but the videos I've watched make no mention of the threshold for purity detection.

 

[Juice n Goose]

I think because the testing for purity and even detecting steroids is harder overall than with other drugs. For instance a regular drug panel (7 screen) can detect the purity of most major drugs within the system. It cannot detect steroids or HGH. So far as we know, only a hormone detection panel or mass spectrum analysis can detect them. And sports hasn't really funded detection of these two substances like they have the others, so developing a lower cost solution hasn't really come from our healthcare system.

More than likely one will develop though, as several European sports system are starting to fund detection methods (Tour de France is one, I can't rem the other one). Go back two years, and HGH was completely undetectable, they have since developed a way to detect the difference in synthetic HGH vs. the real stuff (thanks to Lance Armstrong). It still has a half life detection, but, is far better than nothing.

I imagine over the next two years, we will see more options arise.

Not being some dumb-arse know it all but a 7 panel cannot detect purity. It too is a presumptive test.

Testing for AAS is no harder than say methylchlorohexane. These labs computers which have enormous libraries of so many substances can detect anything. That my esteemed colleague, is the beauty of the technology.and the reason is the chromatograph heats up in a graduated fashion, from 80 degrees celsius gradually up to 450 degrees celsius in the column,pushed along by inert gas,these coiled columns are sometimes 32 meters long and are a type of glass impregnated with a liquid that clings to the walls of the column and retains the sample until the appropriate temp causes the sample to break down into its components and exit the column as each component reaches it own unique temperature,(no two are alike) and form a peak with a KNOWN area on the chromatogram. Fool proof. a note on scientific qualities of matter: every atom has its own atomic mass unit(hence the periodic table) and therefore has its own unique melting point,boiling point,freezing point,density and specific gravity,spectrum upon heating or burning and therefore a unique compound crystaline structure,which is what the MS shatters to further compare to known references. These are not trade secrets but simple chemistry and physics. One does have to choose a lab that does AAS. BUT the hormones we are after are rather simple,unlike MDMA or other rec. drugs.

There are dozens of ways to detect the elements. ESI-TOF is but one of these. Once a sample is properly ionized and charged,without which youre dead in the water, you must select the appropriate method. Most labs have that capability. Kinda like not taking your Chevy to a Ford dealer for repairs. No one said this was going to be a snap. But Oh ye of little faith..rest assured, somewhere out there is a lab just waiting for the intelligencia of men like US!



Goose