Maximally Synergistic Stacks

[rufflesbaby]

I realized Dbol made my Body transform fast without fucking with my BP and messing with my sleep/hunger, Then I realized Tren made me feel like a real life God without any horrible side effects at a moderate dose.. Knew where my Test would be and how my body would handle It long ago from my first cycle. Boom I run Tren, Dbol, Test and turn into big man.

Experience with these compounds trumps all imo, It's interesting to know what might be the most synergistic and the science behind It is cool and all but I don't think you'll unlock a hidden secret from digging into it too much

*Apologies for my lack of big words, me dum dum

 

[jJjburton]

At the end of the day, you guys end up talking over each other.
And me, who have zero intent of going past 300mg ever feels like a weirdo when I see people blasting grams of gear.

Lol thats what i said too

 

[Norse13]

I use steroids that actually build muscle in real life like everything besides those 2-3 and what everyone use,every gym rat.

Why to use halo for a example just to prove a point?
Almost no one use halo, no one used halo for the purpose of building muscle,no one said "bro I will get on a 12 weeks halo cycle and get huge",no one used 2g of halo. Can we actually have some common sense here? Or yeah I showed him that I am smart by taking a example of something no one does.

Don't take in consideration halo,proviron,mtren or any other thing that 98% of people don't use often or ever
Do that comparison with general steroids (test,tren,mast,primo,eq,dhb,deca and orals dbol,drol,sdrol,anavar and some others but you get it).

Do comparisons between cycles of what gym rats take.
For example 1g of test and 600 deca does build him significantly more muscle than the guy that took 400 test and 1,2g deca over 20 weeks and having the similar variables (diet,training, resting). Does the first guy build 5 kg and the second 8 kg? No it will be similar amount

Staying practical and real-world, Leaving the books on the table and sticking to the popular injectable (test, nand, tren, mast, primo, bold, dhb),
In your opinion, if you stick to a total of 1.6 gram, would pretty much any combination of these (including test) give about the same muscle growth over a 20 week period?
1000 test + 600 tren
= 800 test + 800 deca
= 600 test + 600 deca + 400 tren
= 400 test + 400 deca + 400 tren + 400 dhb
Etc.
Excluding hypothetical combinations that doesn't work in real life e.g. 100 test 1500 tren for 20 weeks.

There was a "guru" on another steroid forum that used to be quite popular, he got banned, but his theory was of "phase cycling". In a very simplified nutshell, a 5-month cycle of first load up on test & deca (and dbol) to bring up estrogen and anabolism, then switch to highly androgenic mix of low test plus high tren etc to reduce bloat and cement in the muscles gained. Any thoughts on that ?

 

[Nilatac]

Staying practical and real-world, Leaving the books on the table and sticking to the popular injectable (test, nand, tren, mast, primo, bold, dhb),
In your opinion, if you stick to a total of 1.6 gram, would pretty much any combination of these (including test) give about the same muscle growth over a 20 week period?
1000 test + 600 tren
= 800 test + 800 deca
= 600 test + 600 deca + 400 tren
= 400 test + 400 deca + 400 tren + 400 dhb
Etc.
Excluding hypothetical combinations that doesn't work in real life e.g. 100 test 1500 tren for 20 weeks.

There was a "guru" on another steroid forum that used to be quite popular, he got banned, but his theory was of "phase cycling". In a very simplified nutshell, a 5-month cycle of first load up on test & deca (and dbol) to bring up estrogen and anabolism, then switch to highly androgenic mix of low test plus high tren etc to reduce bloat and cement in the muscles gained. Any thoughts on that ?

For the first question yes it will be about the same

For the second part I don't believe that theory and it isn't practical for a normal guy and let me tell you why.
Estrogen helps with muscle grow indeed but to reduce the bloat is more of a diet thing than drugs related.
"Cement" muscle by taking tren I don't see how that would happen. You can stay more time at a certain weight for your body to recognize that new weight is part of you now help.
You get a certain look by taking tren but when you come off that look will gone,depending on your level but some of the muscle will gone also no matter what you take on the last part of the cycle.

Just pick some substance that does what are you looking for and ride those until cycle is finish and if you want to reduce bloat adjust the diet accordingly.
I talk about a normal guy not a competitor. A gym rat shouldn't complicate with all that.

Things are simple: pick some steroids that do a particular thing you look for as all build about the same muscle, adjust your diet for your goal,train by progressive overload principles and that's all a normal guy should do.
No fancy words, no scamming training programs no useless 60 years old studies. But when you tell people how simple everything is they don't believe and they start to look in a guy mouth that say words that aren't common with confidence because they believe they have the secret. There is no secret guys. Safe your money for drugs and food and don't pay online guru trainers

 

[Type-IIx]

Anyone who used steroids knows how things goes in real life and not in a "study ".

I use steroids that actually build muscle in real life like everything besides those 2-3 and what everyone use,every gym rat.

Why to use halo for a example just to prove a point?
Almost no one use halo, no one used halo for the purpose of building muscle,no one said "bro I will get on a 12 weeks halo cycle and get huge",no one used 2g of halo. Can we actually have some common sense here? Or yeah I showed him that I am smart by taking a example of something no one does.

Don't take in consideration halo,proviron,mtren or any other thing that 98% of people don't use often or ever
Do that comparison with general steroids (test,tren,mast,primo,eq,dhb,deca and orals dbol,drol,sdrol,anavar and some others but you get it).

Do comparisons between cycles of what gym rats take.
For example 1g of test and 600 deca does build him significantly more muscle than the guy that took 400 test and 1,2g deca over 20 weeks and having the similar variables (diet,training, resting). Does the first guy build 5 kg and the second 8 kg? No it will be similar amount
But if you want to make a example of a guy that take 1,6g of halo to build more muscle then the first guy and saying that not all steroids have the same capacity to build muscle because halo guy didn't grow and actually got a liver transplant check yourself how you put the problem in the first place. No one used 1,2 g of halo. I don't have a study to show you how many people use halo in general but maybe you pullout a study

Man we talked about real life applications not useless studies from 60 years ago made on 5 guys.
I know it's hard to get that but that's on what you should report yourself. Real life applications on real people that go to gym and what happen to them by taking x amount of anabolic and then compare with same people that took same total mg of anabolics but 2 or more substance and they built significant more muscle. Well the answer of that is no.

You are the study guy and pullout studies that are useless just to sound smart and probably you make a penny or two out of that by tricking people that you know what are you talking about because: "he use words that I never read before and it's a study that he speaks from so that's right".
Dude make a youtube, do videos speaking of studies like that guy Leo did and trick lost souls that that's how it is in real life applications. Or sell some useless programs or whatever is the trick in trend nowadays

Building muscle and taking steroids is a simple concept can we not complicate that for no reason.

There is no debate. You can do whatever you want as far as I am concern. You can do bungee jumping without a rope because that what studies show you and I sleep the same at night.

Everyone can do whatever they want and take whatever steroids they want I really don't care and don't win anything from this.
I don't train people and I don't have a purpose to pullout studies to sound like I have the secret to get clients online and train them on 60 years old studies. Man get a grip on what real applications is

So because I actually train some guys and study the data on compounds I'm a fraud, and because you do neither, you're to be trusted? Big man, I've been using gear for a while, probably longer than you've been an internet tough guy. You're right that there is no debate; there's no reasoning with someone that thinks nobody uses Halo when I just took my last 40 mg a week ago.

 

[Type-IIx]

I’d appreciate the information if you have the time and inclination to type it out.

I plan to write a more generalizable thesis on synergy between AAS that will demonstrate more broadly the principles of greater than additive combinations.

Here, I'll give you a worked example for testosterone-masteron-trenbolone (TMT) that has no semblance of reliance on the "19nor/test/DHT" broscience model (that I believe was worked out inductively by working backward from the case of TMT).

Recall that net muscle protein balance = muscle protein synthesis (MPS) - muscle protein breakdown (MPB). TMT acts on both sides of the equation, to increase MPS & decrease MPB.

Testosterone is an androst-4-ene-3-one, aromatizable & 5α-reducible. Testosterone increases both systemic IGF-I (via augmented GH secretory burst mass =quantity of GH secreted into bloodstream x unit distribution volume⁻¹ x pulse⁻¹; a consequence of its aromatization) & muscle IGF-I isoform activity (IGF-IEb mRNA, 4x increase in expression) [anabolic mechanisms, increasing MPS]. Testosterone is amplified by 5α-reductase to DHT in CNS & gonadal tissues, supporting sexual function. Testosterone is anticatabolic by suppressing expression of MuRF1 and atrogin-1 mRNA [decreasing MPB], and by suppressing expression of fibroblast growth factor-inducible 14 (Fn14) & IL-6 [the inflammatory response to exercise].

Trenbolone is a triene (Δ4,9,11), non-aromatizable & non-5α-reducible. Trenbolone decreases systemic IGF-I by decreasing GH secretory burst mass but dramatically increases (muscle) satellite cell responsiveness to autocrine/paracrine IGF-I activity [anabolic mechanisms]. Trenbolone is potently insulin sensitizing (decreases blood glucose) and exerts potent antiglucocorticoid effects (decreases GR number & suppresses corticosterone) [anticatabolic mechanisms, decreasing MPB]. Trenbolone particularly (though a class effect of androgen) reduces fat mass in addition to increasing muscle mass. It does this by insulin sensitizing effects (e.g., decreased PPARγ; PPARγ controls formation of new fat cells, FA uptake and storage, and therefore insulin sensitivity), decreased differentiation of fat cell precursors (committing preadipocytes to a myogenic rather than an adipogenic lineage), increased lipolysis, and reduced lipid accumulation.

Masteron (Drostanolone; Dromostanolone) is a 5α-androstan-3-one, non-aromatizable & non-5α-reducible. Its particular unique property is its tissue-level modulation of estrogens, preventing the uptake of estrogens into, e.g., breast cells. In this, it is quite unlike SERMs, that antagonize estrogen receptor in hypothalamus & pituitary. Besides this property, it is a relatively attenuated anabolic that straightforwardly agonizes the AR.

In combination, TMT results in a hardened physique with substantial fat loss (far > than is explained by the increased metabolic cost of skeletal muscle) and substantial muscle gain, with tissue-selective antiestrogenic action, during caloric restriction or surplus. Test's 5α-reduction to DHT provides for basal sexual function. Its increasing systemic IGF-I provides for total-body growth. Its anticatabolic effects are synergistic by working by different systems as Tren's. Tren combines increased muscular/SC responsiveness to IGF-I. Mast's tissue-level estrogen modulation controls excessive aromatic product (estradiol) activity from Test. There is synergy between all of these features.

 

[Norse13]

I plan to write a more generalizable thesis on synergy between AAS that will demonstrate more broadly the principles of greater than additive combinations.

Here, I'll give you a worked example for testosterone-masteron-trenbolone (TMT) that has no semblance of reliance on the "19nor/test/DHT" broscience model (that I believe was worked out inductively by working backward from the case of TMT).

Recall that net muscle protein balance = muscle protein synthesis (MPS) - muscle protein breakdown (MPB). TMT acts on both sides of the equation, to increase MPS & decrease MPB.

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to write this up. Overall this thread is brilliant - there's a diversity of opinions but the debate is kept quite civil and I think there's good learnings coming out. I certainly enjoy it. I've been "chemically experimenting" on my body for over 30 years and I still think it's fun and interesting to try new things.

Besides TMT, do you have any other common synergistic stacks suitable for regular gym goers?
How about adding deca on top of TMT, would that yield further synergy?

 

[Type-IIx]

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to write this up. Overall this thread is brilliant - there's a diversity of opinions but the debate is kept quite civil and I think there's good learnings coming out. I certainly enjoy it. I've been "chemically experimenting" on my body for over 30 years and I still think it's fun and interesting to try new things.

Besides TMT, do you have any other common synergistic stacks suitable for regular gym goers?
How about adding deca on top of TMT, would that yield further synergy?

You're welcome. As much as I do enjoy sharing examples of what I do, it is mental labor that people actually do pay me for. It's not fair to those people to divulge countless examples; and if that makes my information less credible to readers (zOMG, he has a vested interest in withholding his proprietary work that he won't give us all for free on an internet forum), I don't know what to tell ya.

 

[Slicknyc]

Your personal opinion doesn't matter because what I say is facts.
I don't care what anyone wanna do with their bodies health and dosages but you can only grow So much at 500mg total gear.
Can you get big and look nice ?
OF COURSE
But not bigger and more shredded than yourself at 1000mg dosage

LBM is the same according to dosage , different compounds only change the appearance of your physique

I agree with this. The golden triangle Test/GH/Slin. There is just a totally different look you get as far as size and everything as far as a next level look when you are running 1500mg test a week As your base. Im not suggesting anyone run these amounts but anyone who has will agree it’s just the next level. The real difference at the pro level is the ridiculous amount of gear to maintain size when you cut. Then trying to dial in to be at your absolute best on show day is even more difficult.

 

[narta]

I agree with this. The golden triangle Test/GH/Slin. There is just a totally different look you get as far as size and everything as far as a next level look when you are running 1500mg test a week As your base. Im not suggesting anyone run these amounts but anyone who has will agree it’s just the next level. The real difference at the pro level is the ridiculous amount of gear to maintain size when you cut. Then trying to dial in to be at your absolute best on show day is even more difficult.

You 'd be surprised by the number of physiques that have stepped into a Olympia stage using less than half of what some gym bros are using nowdays.

Consistency and discipline is what builds champions not drugs. They do help but to an extend, drugs are not the magic pill. It's just a tool in the arsenal of tools that people use to achieve greatness. If drugs were the main differential factor there would be dozens of hundreds more professional athletes in all sports.

 

[Norse13]

You 'd be surprised by the number of physiques that have stepped into a Olympia stage using less than half of what some gym bros are using nowdays.

But how do you actually know what Olympia athletes use?

I personally trained at a gym where a guy who multiple times placed Top 10 in Mr.O also trained, he was sponsored by the gym and I'd see him multiple times a week. My wife had a few training sessions with him, I'd say hello what's up. But not a single person that I knew had, or would share, the details of his stack through the seasons. I'm just wondering how y'all know these details - do your kids go to same birthday parties or are you all cousins or what?

 

[Nilatac]

You 'd be surprised by the number of physiques that have stepped into a Olympia stage using less than half of what some gym bros are using nowdays.

Consistency and discipline is what builds champions not drugs. They do help but to an extend, drugs are not the magic pill. It's just a tool in the arsenal of tools that people use to achieve greatness. If drugs were the main differential factor there would be dozens of hundreds more professional athletes in all sports.

Don't compare average gym guy to a Olympia competitor. Those are elite genetics. Genetic play a huge role in sports and not only bodybuilding, powerlifting,strongman.
To compare yourself with a pro and what they do is a very bad way to look at things
Look how some looked when they start bodybuilding. You or anyone was close to their shape?
Genetics, drugs build champions because everyone is working out. Many guys are consistent and they do what are supposed to do but the results are no near that great. They don't have genetics for this.

And they aren't a Olympia competitor because they didn't took more deca that is more anabolic and if they would they would build more muscle than only test. Those things makes close to 0 difference and no one should even bother with that

Jay at 15 &18




Phil when he play basketball and first competition






Ronnie young when he was doing powerlifting and in a competition I believe somewhat natural or close to

 

[narta]

So it's logical the average gym rat to pump grams of steroids with no intention or chance to step into a competition stage, cause he has poor genetics for it?

That's exactly the brosciense that has and will be killing lots of folks out there. The "I wanna look/lift good no matter what" mentality. Yeah sure let's see how good you look/lift 6 feet under. Where is the harm reduction in that, that this board has as a guideline/preaches?

And on the matter of discipline and consistency NO that vast majority of gym goers does NOT have the willpower to be in the mentality of a champion for years on end. If this forum is a representation of the gym goers (and it's not most guys/gals in here are far more disciplined that Joe Gymrat) then anyone can see the lack of consistency. Bulk, cut, break diet, don't wanna push hard today, programm is deemed a failure after 4 weeks on it and let's not get into the "I don't feel the cycle 3 days into it so I 'm gonna change things up"

And before anyone says it, I too was one of them folks in my younger version.

Of course everyone can do whatever they want with their body and NOONE should have a say on that as a matter of principle.

 

[Nilatac]

So it's logical the average gym rat to pump grams of steroids with no intention or chance to step into a competition stage, cause he has poor genetics for it?

That's exactly the brosciense that has and will be killing lots of folks out there. The "I wanna look/lift good no matter what" mentality. Yeah sure let's see how good you look/lift 6 feet under. Where is the harm reduction in that, that this board has as a guideline/preaches?

And on the matter of discipline and consistency NO that vast majority of gym goers does NOT have the willpower to be in the mentality of a champion for years on end. If this forum is a representation of the gym goers (and it's not most guys/gals in here are far more disciplined that Joe Gymrat) then anyone can see the lack of consistency. Bulk, cut, break diet, don't wanna push hard today, programm is deemed a failure after 4 weeks on it and let's not get into the "I don't feel the cycle 3 days into it so I 'm gonna change things up"

And before anyone says it, I too was one of them folks in my younger version.

Of course everyone can do whatever they want with their body and NOONE should have a say on that as a matter of principle.

The logic is if you see that you don't have genetic for bodybuilding don't do bodybuilding. Don't pump grams to have a chance to step on stange. But that's person depending and what risk they want to expose to.
You can look good with bad genetics and with taking a small amount of gear but you have to realizing that and accept that

But let's not put this speech: Olympia competitor take half of what you take so is discipline. Is not is genetics that made him who it is.
Also who knows what a Olympia guy took. I wasn't with him 24/7 to see what he was doing. You was? If not then why you pretend you know by saying Olympia competitor take half of what some gym guy take
Or we believe what Lee said:200 mg deca and 200 mg test 12 weeks?

I know personally a guy that he is a really discipline and consistent guy in the gym and diet and he won't step on a stage like never. Is not for him this no matter what he does. He works hard or whatever you want to call this but that's not the problem

Also harm reduction by saying take less. Man everyone should know what they expose to taking steroids. Are a bunch of kids around here?

And if you aren't competing you are gym rat that do this for a hobby

Is genetics, food,drugs and training that made a champion and that not only in bodybuilding.
I am 180 cm. Do you believe that if I am discipline and work hard will I play in NBA? No because is not for me that and I must to accept that basket is not for me and I can do this for a hobby only

 

[AlwaysHungry]

What bullshit I hear Mr Olympia is a chemical warfare competition that's the sad truth. Bodybuilding is veeery dark sport , you don't even have an idea what these guys are taking in terms of number of products they use or in terms of quantity they use. The level of abuse at this competitions is scary ! Don't fucking kid yourselves.
All Olympian competitors are disciplined in terms of diet training. All Olympian competitors have good genetics. All Olympian competitors handle the drugs good.
There are some genetic freaks who respond very well to drugs but still! High amounts.

 

[Nilatac]

What bullshit I hear Mr Olympia is a chemical warfare competition that's the sad truth. Bodybuilding is veeery dark sport , you don't even have an idea what these guys are taking in terms of number of products they use or in terms of quantity they use. The level of abuse at this competitions is scary ! Don't fucking kid yourselves.
All Olympian competitors are disciplined in terms of diet training. All Olympian competitors have good genetics. All Olympian competitors handle the drugs good.
There are some genetic freaks who respond very well to drugs but still! High amounts.

Not only at Olympia. In strongman I hear a podcast from a coach that train a pro strongman and he was saying that close to a competition he push around 10g of anabolics.
It is a 180-200kg guy,genetic elite and whatever you want but those steroids doses play a huge role in winning or losing a competition

Steroids is part of sports and drugs works more drugs works better is the truth

 

[jJjburton]

The thing about genetics is by taking these AAS and performance enhancing drugs your changing those. Genetics tells someone if they will have low t or not, if they are diabetic or not. Soo all these medicines do kind if change genetics.

So food and drugs and disipline. I would say can really do anything in here. Not in that order.

 

[lilchikin]

Synergy (greater than additive combinations, 1 + 1 > 2) between drug classes & compounds is something I want to eventually write a sort of thesis about. It's clear that AAS dose vs. ΔLBM is not subject to a sigmoidal S-curve, meaning that AR-mediated effects are not the solitary determinant of AAS effects.

The drug classes are not grouped in practice as 19-nor/testosterone/DHTs. Rather, with respect to biological effects and functional properties that combine greater than additively, the drug classes are best grouped by their structural features and distinctive metabolisms (e.g., androsta-1,4-diene-3-ones vs. androst-4-ene-3-ones vs. androst-1-ene-3-ones, etc.).

Synergy relies on how drugs modulate: glucocorticoids, IGF-I activity (e.g., whether systemically for total-body mitogenic & myogenic effects, or by increasing intramuscular satellite cell responsiveness to IGF-I for tissue-selectivity), estrogens, strength by nongenomic mechanisms, anticatabolic processes, etc.

Indeed, synergy between compounds does more than merely permit total dose reduction; it results in a markedly different physique. I think few would actually attempt to argue that a 1.5 g testosterone blast yields the same physique as a 600 mg test/500 mg tren/400 mg mast blast (or even after adjusting for potency to activate AR, that the same holds true). TMT is a synergistic combination. I can happily illustrate how & why, and this has nothing to do with whether the three drugs are "19-nor/test/DHTs." In fact, I think the broscience model was almost certainly derived inductively, just by working backwards from the case of TMT, as it offers such clear synergy. Such is the depth of analysis that characterizes the bulk of common wisdom in the steroidverse. Anyhow, there are countless synergistic combinations that rely on combinations of different drug properties.

sorry to resurrect this old thread - @Type-IIx can you go into depth on the synergy between TMT. I scrolled through this thread and didn't see you dive in. Would love that.

 

[Type-IIx]

sorry to resurrect this old thread - @Type-IIx can you go into depth on the synergy between TMT. I scrolled through this thread and didn't see you dive in. Would love that.

Maximally Synergistic Stacks

I realized Dbol made my Body transform fast without fucking with my BP and messing with my sleep/hunger, Then I realized Tren made me feel like a real life God without any horrible side effects at a moderate dose.. Knew where my Test would be and how my body would handle It long ago from my...

thinksteroids.com

 

[lilchikin]

Maximally Synergistic Stacks

I realized Dbol made my Body transform fast without fucking with my BP and messing with my sleep/hunger, Then I realized Tren made me feel like a real life God without any horrible side effects at a moderate dose.. Knew where my Test would be and how my body would handle It long ago from my...

thinksteroids.com

Thank you - amazing info