Maximum Muscle Mass Gain Natural/Steroids

[Testacular]

Came across this model:

Lyle McDonald's Natural Lean Muscle Mass Gain Model
Years Training: Muscle Gain:
1 year 20-25 pounds (2 pounds per month)
2 years 10-12 pounds (1 pound per month)
3 years 5-6 pounds (.5 pound per month)
4 years 2-3 pounds (not worth calculating)

with other similar models found here: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html/

So I searched the web and meso forums like the lurker that I am and didn't find anything really but people arbitrarily wondering how much overall mass they would gain off of particular cycles.

Been training for 20 years, am currently on TRT (testosterone enanthate 150mg a week) and would classify myself as an intermediate at best. Shocked at how low these numbers are, especially when genetic potential is reached around years 3-4.

There has to have been scientific studies done on lean muscle mass gain with subjects using various amounts of anabolic steroids, if so how far to they deviate from this example?

 

[SauceBoss]

20-25 pounds in your first year of training ? Most people don't even learn how to engage their lats the first year of training

 

[PaulHeyman]

Maybe a 20-25lb body weight increase overall, but not all muscle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Big_paul]

Training naturally I never got over 230lbs at 10-11 percent bf. That was with 3 hours training each day 6 days a week.

I don't think that what works for L M works for everyone. I plateaued at 225-230.

 

[Test_Subject]

I put on just under 40 pounds my first year of serious training, but I was a stick up until then, so there's that.

 

[Dr JIM]

There has to have been scientific studies done on lean muscle mass gain with subjects using various amounts of anabolic steroids

NO there is not (exclusive of the "research" conducted by the Russians in the mid 1900s) bc the use of AAS as PEDs is illegal and so is the type of longitudinal research required to evaluate the effectiveness of these agents over a several year interval.


Nonetheless the data being cited on Body Compy seems reasonably accurate IME.
Yea so those who post "gains" of 20 pounds in two-three months WILL lose the majority of it, esp if the primary modification involves the use of PEDs rather than similar changes in diet and exercise.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

WHAT EVERYONE GETS WRONG ABOUT FFMI AND THE “NATTY LIMIT”
What Everyone Gets Wrong About FFMI and the "Natty Limit"

I constantly see the claim that an FFMI of 25 is the “natty limit” of muscularity, and that it’s impossible (or at least unbelievably unlikely) that you can get more muscular than that without the use of steroids.

To backtrack a bit for people who feel like they’re stepping into the middle of a conversation, the Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a measure of muscularity. You calculate it by dividing lean body mass (in kg) by height (in meters) squared.

It’s essentially the same formula as Body Mass Index (BMI), but for lean body mass instead of total body mass. The higher your FFMI, the more jacked you are.

It’s been proposed by several prominent members of the online fitness community that no drug-free lifters can attain an FFMI above 25 – if someone has an FFMI over 25, you know for sure they’re on drugs. The less extreme view is that one or two rare outliers may be able to attain an FFMI over 25 without drugs, but doing so would be so incredibly unlikely, that you can still be 99% sure someone’s on the sauce if their FFMI exceeds 25.

In this article, I want to explain why that position is probably wrong or, at the very least, why there’s insufficient evidence to make such a statement.

...

 

[Testacular]

The Alan Aragon Model (source: Alan Aragon, Girth Control (2007))

"So a 150 pound beginner might be able to gain 1.5-2.25 pounds of muscle per month (18-27 pounds per year). After a year, he’s now an intermediate at 170 pounds and might be capable of gaining 0.85-1.7 lbs per month (10-20 pounds per year; I’d consider 20 lbs. an exceptional gain). After another year, he’s an advanced lifter at 180 and might only gain 0.5-1 lb per month (a true 1 lb/month gain in muscle mass for an advanced athlete would be pretty rare)."

The overall gains of (18-27 pounds per year) or (10-20 pounds per year) weren't really the surprising part, it was that those gain gains were capped at 1.5-2.25 pounds of muscle per month and 0.85-1.7 lbs per month respectively.

I would wager that the vast majority of people don't know about this (as I didn't but a week a ago) being how often you hear of people going on super high calorie diets thinking that the extra caloric intake will build more muscle when it is being stored as fat. My favorite line at the gym is when i hear, "you don't know bro, i carb up like crazy bro". Bro speak for an excuse to slam 3 pizza pies in a sitting, thinking he's putting on 10 lbs of muscle a month because he's eating like a pig and going to the gym everyday.

Lets say you're 5'10" 15% bf with maintenance calories at 3,150. With the goal in mind of gaining 1 lb lean muscle mass a month, with minimal fat gain, what caloric surplus would you aim for?

 

[ErikR]

The Alan Aragon Model (source: Alan Aragon, Girth Control (2007))

"So a 150 pound beginner might be able to gain 1.5-2.25 pounds of muscle per month (18-27 pounds per year). After a year, he’s now an intermediate at 170 pounds and might be capable of gaining 0.85-1.7 lbs per month (10-20 pounds per year; I’d consider 20 lbs. an exceptional gain). After another year, he’s an advanced lifter at 180 and might only gain 0.5-1 lb per month (a true 1 lb/month gain in muscle mass for an advanced athlete would be pretty rare)."

The overall gains of (18-27 pounds per year) or (10-20 pounds per year) weren't really the surprising part, it was that those gain gains were capped at 1.5-2.25 pounds of muscle per month and 0.85-1.7 lbs per month respectively.

I would wager that the vast majority of people don't know about this (as I didn't but a week a ago) being how often you hear of people going on super high calorie diets thinking that the extra caloric intake will build more muscle when it is being stored as fat. My favorite line at the gym is when i hear, "you don't know bro, i carb up like crazy bro". Bro speak for an excuse to slam 3 pizza pies in a sitting, thinking he's putting on 10 lbs of muscle a month because he's eating like a pig and going to the gym everyday.

Lets say you're 5'10" 15% bf with maintenance calories at 3,150. With the goal in mind of gaining 1 lb lean muscle mass a month, with minimal fat gain, what caloric surplus would you aim for?

First I would try to get your bf a little lower, then start by adding 500 cal. Above maintainance and see how that goes before increasing it.

 

[Dr JIM]

First I would try to get your bf a little lower, then start by adding 500 cal. Above maintainance and see how that goes before increasing it.

I agree but it's not just a "caloric" issue.

Like those who are searching for the "optimal E-2 level" the same holds true for caloric intake ……….. they want it simplified as the number of calories per day wo considering the caloric content as in "macros" (which many on Meso use as jargon to impress others)

The bottom line add 500 cals/day, but as a well defined MEAL PLAN to ensure
those "macros" have meaning such as;
- 50% protein
- 20% fat
- 30% carbs

This is want separates doers from talkers and a successful effort from a failed one IME

 

[Testacular]

I agree but it's not just a "caloric" issue.

Like those who are searching for the "optimal E-2 level" the same holds true for caloric intake ……….. they want it simplified as the number of calories per day wo considering the caloric content as in "macros" (which many on Meso use as jargon to impress others)

The bottom line add 500 cals/day, but as a well defined MEAL PLAN to ensure
those "macros" have meaning such as;
- 50% protein
- 20% fat
- 30% carbs

This is want separates doers from talkers and a successful effort from a failed one IME

I am positive your break down is correct, just to clarify (because the amount of misinformation on the internet is astounding) this would lead to a 15kcal surplus a month. Practically no one knew that there are 600 calories in 1lb of muscle (if this is even correct) as similarly there are 3500 calories in 1 lb of fat. The answer to supposedly gain 1 lb of muscle was all over the place with people saying anywhere b/w a 2500 - 3500 calorie surplus, without even mentioning proper "macros", is adequate. Obviously this is totally wrong just like the claims on some (even reputable sites) that it is possible to gain 1 lb LBM a week. Would the 'overhead' go to synthesize these muscles as this is an 'expensive' process?

 

[Dr JIM]

How many calories are in a pound of FAT?

It's a reasonably simple calculation since there is 9Kcal in each GRAM and one pound approximates 1/2 kilo which equals 500grams

9Kal/gm X 500grams=

One POUND OF FAT = 4500 kcal !

 

[Dr JIM]

Obviously this is totally wrong just like the claims on some (even reputable sites) that it is possible to gain 1 lb LBM a week.

That's bc forums are replete with comments by novices who are led to believe almost any weight gained while cycling must be due to anabolism and are the result of changes in LBM.

In fact many bc of their youthfulness can eat darn near anything and gain WEIGHT while cycling BUT eventually they all reach a plateau where the benefits of AAS are not near as remarkable and improvents in LBM become much more difficult.

What makes such anecdotes even more difficult to interpret, few forum runners have even bothered to objectively measure their LBM and tend to overestimate such improvements and MINIMIZE changes in TBF IME

 

[Testacular]

How many calories are in a pound of FAT?

It's a reasonably simple calculation since there is 9Kcal in each GRAM and one pound approximates 1/2 kilo which equals 500grams

9Kal/gm X 500grams=

One POUND OF FAT = 4500 kcal !

What would say then are the calories needed to synthesize 1 lb of muscle? If there are any accurate links too those would be appreciated as well. The goal is not to be a hemorrhoid, l know you're taking your time to respond to all of these questions and that is very greatly appreciated as I finally feel I am in a place where people know what they are talking about. I realize I have segued into another topic, deviating from the title of the original post, but since the amount of lean muscle mass gained being natural is as low as it is I would like to understand the mechanisms behind it. (correction: The surplus would be be 14 kcal as per 28 days or 4 weeks not 15 kcal as i stated wrongly) Thanks very much again for the MEAL PLAN going food shopping and starting it tomorrow!

 

[ErikR]

How many calories are in a pound of FAT?

It's a reasonably simple calculation since there is 9Kcal in each GRAM and one pound approximates 1/2 kilo which equals 500grams

9Kal/gm X 500grams=

One POUND OF FAT = 4500 kcal !

Is the calorie count of body fat different then the count of pure fat?

 

[Dr JIM]

Good question but in general there is not much of a difference EXCEPT for protein.

That's bc the digestion, assimilation, degradation etc of protein requires an additional energy expenditure of 20-30%
(aka the "thermic effect", or BEE
as in Bioequivalent Energy Expenditure) before its
fully bioavailabile.

Contrarily Fats and Carbs are essentially GTG, with a BEE of roughly 0 and 5% respectively, and require very little energy expenditure to become fully bioavailable.

Finally and this is worth noting, the human body doesn't like giving up its fat stores and those biochemical processes which favor Lipolysis such as a LOW insulin level,are NOT necessarily optimal for SKM anabolism.

And it's for this reason, among others, I've tried emphasize the fact gaining fat is MUCH easier than loosing it, soooo don't push calories in the absence of a well thought out dietary plan UNLESS
you're willing to accept gains in TBF.

That's not to say either of these processes are mutually exclusive
bc while some cells may be in a relatively catabolic state others will be in a state of anabolism.

The point is many on forums want a simple solution, to a very complex biochemical process.

I hear it time and time again just "ramp up those cals dude" and force your body into a state of anabolism, overlooking the fact fatty deposition is ALSO an anabolic process.

While the latter IS modifiable, a successful effort will require much more thought and effort than just loading CALORIES!

Jim

 

[Dr JIM]

Good question but in general there is not much of a difference EXCEPT for protein.

That's bc the digestion, assimilation, degradation etc of protein requires an additional energy expenditure of 20-30%
(aka the "thermic effect", or BEE
as in Bioequivalent Energy Expenditure) before its
fully bioavailabile.

Contrarily Fats and Carbs are essentially GTG, with a BEE of roughly 0 and 5% respectively, and require very little energy expenditure to become fully bioavailable.

Finally and this is worth noting, the human body doesn't like giving up its fat stores and those biochemical processes which favor Lipolysis such as a LOW insulin level,are NOT necessarily optimal for SKM anabolism.

And it's for this reason, among others, I've tried emphasize the fact gaining fat is MUCH easier than loosing it, soooo don't push calories in the absence of a well thought out dietary plan UNLESS
you're willing to accept gains in TBF.

That's not to say either of these processes are mutually exclusive
bc while some cells may be in a relatively catabolic state others will be in a state of anabolism.

The point is many on forums want a simple solution, to a very complex biochemical process.

I hear it time and time again just "ramp up those cals dude" and force your body into a state of anabolism, overlooking the fact fatty deposition is ALSO an anabolic process.

While the latter IS modifiable, a successful effort will require much more thought and effort than just loading CALORIES!

Jim

 

[Dr JIM]

Oh and stay tuned bc I just received the trypsin LC/MS "Z" sample results which are quite revealing, as they highlight just
how sensitive an AAA can be if done correctly by someone with extensive experience.

MANDS and I will be reviewing the data (a full 89 pages) to determine which portions will be most useful for Meso members

 

[Dr JIM]

^^ Wrong thread lol!