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[Fckit]

I said the same thing. Volt is going to try and work on a thread this morning. I'm certain it will be sticky material

 

[Colt44]

I agree, Colt. I guess I was just making fun of some of us after we all kept going around.
But you are correct, we do need some standards to set our expectations by.

Got it. It was more of a shot across the bow. We all usually end up here. I know I've been in the middle of this conversation a few times. We always talk about. I think @lightspan even created a thread about it. I was just reiterating the fact that it needs to be followed through with and implemented.

 

[Colt44]

___

At 3 days post pin, the level will be close to peak. At 500 mg per week, this will place the serum testosterone over 4,000 ng/dL easily and in many at 5,000 ng/dL. That the level is half this at peak speaks directly that the AAS is not what it is advertised. One can expect a level of 2,000-2,500 ng/dL just prior to the pin.

What does the time of day have anything to do with the test?

Bring It On!!!

___
Another thought! Let's for argument sake say you are correct. So, 200 mg per week places you at 1,500 ng/dL. 500 mg per week will be at 3,750 ng/dL, which shows the level of ~2,000 ng/dL is BS.

Go Ahead! Make My Day! It is a dose dependent linear relationship.

But, that is not the actual observation, but still we can see that claim is even bogus by your assumption.

___
There is no way that a dose of 400 mg will provide 1,200 ng/dL 2 days after the shot.

And, working backwards gives some strange math for a half-life.

Why every two weeks? And, who administered the shot?

This is for TE 250 mg.
View attachment 14674

IF you are using UG AAS (TC/TE/TP) and wish to test, albeit indirectly, the accuracy of the advertised strength, the best time to test is within 2-3 days post pin at least two weeks into the cycle. You want to test for the peak, NOT the nadir. The nadir will NOT provide good information. That is unless they made it much stronger!

____
The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The level of testosterone in the study a 1 week after the last injection was around 3,000 ng/dL [2,800 - 3,200]. Do the math! One week prior, the level was ~6,000 ng/dL. And, for some, much higher.

Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, et al. The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men. N Engl J Med 1996;335(1):1-7. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101

View attachment 14691

@Voltrader When you start putting that thread together. Good info from the resident expert.

 

[fokai500]

With all that being said we need more tests!! MS has been here for a minute now and I think tile posted the first bloods.. It's only $45, don't you guys want to see where you're at?? I'm always curious where my numbers are..

I agree with the lack of testing and posting results for members. I've learned that a big part of meso is contributions. I just paid $53 for a test which I felt was very necessary for me and necessary to establish credability with a source.

We really need to start a thread and have a few guys different body types and ages run a test only cycle from the Same lab. I would be curious at those results.

Another thing that would be nice is more frequent testing. With all these new member sourcing here there shoud be more labs. Especially the ones who has reps here. Maybe we can try to find a way to reward members who post there bloods. Maybe a "Well Tested" badge or something.

 

[bickel29]

Another thing that would be nice is more frequent testing. With all these new member sourcing here there shoud be more labs. Especially the ones who has reps here. Maybe we can try to find a way to reward members who post there bloods. Maybe a "Well Tested" badge or something.

Well, we have had several sources offer store credit for posting bloodwork. Ironically, many of the newer sources have tried this route to establish credibility early on. Then, after they start getting complaints after the initial round of gear has dried up and they are sending out weaker gear, they are not so quick to make that offer.

But I get your point, fokai, a way to recognize within the community.

 

[redrum720]

Well see there you have it folks always pin test e its better lol j/k
Thanks @Colt44 for the info waiting on those threads with stickys

 

[Voltrader]

Alright my thread is up in the testing section. I believe Colt will have a protocol thread here too.

 

[heady muscle]

Alright my thread is up in the testing section. I believe Colt will have a protocol thread here too.

Good,
Mike can have his thread back! lol

 

[mghoward74]

Good traffic on here. Thread needed it

 

[Colt44]

Maybe a "Well Tested" badge or something.

Sounds like you're cleared from having an STD. Lol I prefer a well tested vag myself.

 

[eminem93]

I would like to see how MS responds to his gear being tested at underdosed.. I know he wants to be honest and straightforward, so I am curious to see how he tries to handle this.

 

[eminem93]

I think its unethical to claim your product is at 300mg/ml for the cyp but only tests out about 60% range, what is the other 40% of crap you are being jnjected with? Also, $50 for a bottle of test cyp with bloods coming back at those levels is overpriced.

 

[eminem93]

Im not taking a shot at MS, I just am curious to see how he will handle the situation now that the evidence is on the table. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle this situation.

 

[iintensity]

I have a bit of personal experience of where my test levels lye based on labs. 24-36 hours post injection of watson testosterone cypionate leaves me between 1000 ng/dl-1300. After 3.5 days I tested at 750 ng/dl.

 

[Marcus]

@eminem93 , if you have been reading... That is the debate and a bit of confusion that some of us are having. The 8-10X rule comes in to effect at peak levels when the FULL WEEKLY DOSE is taken in one shot. So unless you or another more enlightened member is able to tell us where exactly these bloods would fall when doses are split, we don't have an exact way to tell how underdosed, if at all, they are.

It SEEMS possible that when the dose is split that test levels could come back in the 6-7X range, but I honestly don't know, which is I why everyone here is talking about starting a thread to both standardize testing and gather results on split weekly doses and single weekly doses. We also have to keep in mind that both esters were on the decline off their peak value which is also why we are discussing standardizing testing and gathering more bloods from members as a base for comparison.

 

[redrum720]

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/laboratory-tests-steroid-user/ at the it kinda gives you an explanation

 

[Boilermech]

Starting Mike Strongs Test E at 600mgs a week on Sunday. Running for 12 weeks. With one pin a week. Going to be running prop at the end of the cycle so it wont effect bloods. Was going to throw in some Dbol but I'll set it aside till next cycle. I'm 37 and at 202lbs (was 240lbs around 5 yrs ago but just slowly working my way back up). I'm around 12%bf currently. Pre-cycle bloodwork has already been done. This is the first cycle in 5 or 6 years so I'm really looking forward to it. Ran insane amount of cycles years ago so nothing new to me. I will try to find Colts post about bloodwork. If no one else is running Strong Gear test E that's fine but I will post up bloodwork whenever our protocol says to get them drawn.
By the way this is a great idea guys and good luck to everyone involved.

 

[mikestrong]

I would like to see how MS responds to his gear being tested at underdosed.. I know he wants to be honest and straightforward, so I am curious to see how he tries to handle this.

Eminem I stand by my gear being dosed correctly. I think we have something pending, I will cancel it if it is not to late & then refund you. I don't want unhappy VIP
For anyone to claim my product is underdosed due to blood work is ignorant. Test my product instead, to see it is the real deal. I remember reading about Androgen Receptors being non receptive, saturated & also blocked.
Tileguy had high Estadiol:
Here is an article:
efer people to this information.

From the beginning...

Estradiol is an estrogen. It is known on blood tests as E2. Many people (even doctors) simply call it estrogen.

Why it Matters

There are basically two reasons we care about estradiol.

The first is that E2 is a powerful testosterone receptor antagonist. What this means is that estradiol binds to androgen receptors and renders them useless. When testosterone binds to an androgen receptor, it activates the receptor and you get the effect you're looking for. When estradiol binds to that receptor, it blocks testosterone from binding, yet it does not active the receptor, so nothing happens.

This means that if your estradiol is high, no matter how much testosterone you have, it isn't helping you as it should because too many of your androgen receptors are blocked by estradiol and your free testosterone has no where to go. Testosterone can't do you any good if it doesn't have receptors available to activate.

It can even get worse... because high levels of estradiol can cause the downregulation of androgen receptors. This means that your body may respond to higher levels of estradiol by creating fewer androgen receptors as cells are replaced in normal regeneration. In other words, not only does estradiol block the available androgen receptors, it causes your body to produce fewer of them in the future! This is one reason why raising testosterone levels may not have any immediate effect. It may be that your receptors have downregulated and so you'll need to lower estradiol and increase testosterone in order to get your body to upregulate again and this takes time.

The second reason we care about estradiol is that you also have estrogen receptors and estradiol binds to them and causes them to activate. This is fine if you want to grow man boobs, store fat on your belly, and have an enlarged prostate, but not so good if you want to look and feel like a man.

Where It Comes From

Brushing aside the highly controversial subject of environmental estrogens, the primary pathway for estradiol production is via the conversion of testosterone by aromatase. This means that the aromatase enzyme binds to testosterone and chemically converts it to estradiol. Think about that for a minute. Realize that this conversion is a double whammy. In one process you're losing T and gaining E. Obviously this is not good.

This is where aromatase inhibitors (AI) like anastrozole (brand name Arimidex - aka "adex" etc.) come into the picture. They bind to the aromatase enzyme and prevent it from converting your testosterone to estradiol. They do not work directly on estradiol nor on estrogen receptors. It is SERM's like Clomid and Nolvadex that bind to estrogen receptors. SERM's and AI's are different animals, so don't get them confused.

So an AI gives you the double whammy in reverse. It prevents the loss of testosterone to conversion and consequently lowers your estradiol which helps keep your androgen receptors available for testosterone.

E Follows T

Here's where doctors fuck up. They forget that E follows T. As your T levels go up, so will your E levels. If you're not doing something to control your E (like taking an AI) then you aren't really going to get anywhere with higher T levels because your higher E levels are just going to cancel out any beneficial effect from the T. Like I said, your T can't do you any good if all your androgen receptors are bound with estradiol.

For those of us with "age related" low T, this is a serious issue because our bodies are naturally trying to keep T low and E high by pumping out aromatase.

If you're younger and have low T for some other reason, aromatase may not be as much of an issue, but it still matters.

Fat

Fat produces estrogen and aromatase; even in men. If you're carrying extra fat, one of the best things you can do to help your hormone balance is to lose the fat.

In Range does not equal Normal

One of the problems you're likely to face is the problem of doctors believing that any blood test value that is "in range" is "normal" and therefor fine. I wish it was that simple.

Let's look at testosterone values. The range for Quest is 241-847 ng/dL. But those values are derived simply by looking at the values of everyone who has a blood test for testosterone. What's normal for a younger man is to be in the higher end of the range. What's normal for an older man is to be in the lower end of the range. Well low T might be "normal" but that doesn't mean it's good! I may be an older guy, but why should I be happy with low T simply because it's normal? ALL men of all ages should be in the higher end of the range if they want to feel good and perform athletically and sexually as men.

The same holds true for estradiol. The range is 13-54 pg/mL but "normal" young men are at the low end of the range and that's where you want to be as well.

Trust me, if your T is 250 and your E is 50, you may be "in range" for both values, but you aren't going to feel good or have anywhere near the athletic and sexual performance that would have if your T was 800 and your E was 15.

Natural Variation

All populations exhibit variation. The average height for men might be 5' 10" but we all know guys who are much taller and much shorter. This same variation applies to T levels, E levels, and reactions to various therapies. In other words, while the principals I've outlined hold true in general, how they specifically apply to you will vary. Be smart and deal with it.

Ok, that's enough from me for now. This is just a basic primer; there's a lot more to this subject so use this as a springboard to do more research on your own.

Anyway I am no expert. But I don't recall anyone on here talking about Androgen Receptors.

Eminem PM so we can arrange a refund/return of your recent order.
Respectfully
MS

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Excellent post MS. That makes sense. I learn something new everyday here

 

[pumpkintits]

yeah i think when it comes to t levels, people seem to be set on the 8-10x rule and anything less is considered underdosed, but i think it's safe to say there are many other factors that come into play that determine what your levels come back at, which is why i think there's been so much discussion about it lately. i do know that when it comes to trusting a source with my money and the quality of product i'm getting in return, it really doesn't come any better than Mike in my opinion.