My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by BigAk, Jul 12, 2006.

  1. JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    You have had it made while on HRT (including body, sex and hair), what made you go of HRT?

    I am sure the answer is somewhere, but this is long thread.
  2. BigAk

    BigAk Junior Member

    Hey Fellas... Well.. It's been about a few months since my last update. :D

    In Feb of this year, Dr. Crisler found out that my ferritin levels were pretty high.. This lead him to investigate further the possibility of having Hemochromatosis. He suggested that I contact my GP to take care of it and figure out if I am a genetic carrier. I have learned during that time from abundant amout of literature confirming the fact that patient with Hemochromatosis have low levels of testosterone. Also HAN has pointed this out to my attention. Shortly after my GP had me undergo frequent phlebotomies in order to get my iron down and make my organs bleed out their iron. I started the phlebotomies sometime in April, and between April and June I performed 5 phlebotomies and my ferritin went down drastically. Just recently I did blood work to measure my ferritin and my Testosterone... To my surprise, my testosterone seemed to be climbing up more than it's ever been. From my log below you'll notice that I was stuck in the low 300'reds during and after a whole year of my restart... But, my last bloodwork shows my testosterone in the mid 400'reds.. This is really exciting to me.

    Thank God.. :)

    Here are my latest blood work results as of first week of July.


    July 9, 2008

    Testosterone Serum ----> 445 ----- (241-827)
    Testosterone Free ------> 11.1 ------(6.8 - 21.5)

    Ferritin, serum ------> 38 -------- (22 - 322)
    Iron, serum ----------> 147--------(40 - 155) Still seems high but hopefully more phlebotomies will knock it down.

    Cholesterol --------> 217 --------- (100 - 199) This seems high cause my diet is like crap
    Triglycerides -------> 88 ----------(0 - 149)

    ************************************************** **********************

    Feb 18, 2008

    Testosterone Serum ----> 376 ----- (241-827)
    Testosterone Free ------> 9.05 ------(6.8 - 21.5)
    Testosterone bioavailable ---> 198 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)

    E2 ----> 8 --- (3 - 70)
    LH ---> 6.2 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH ---> 2.9 --- (1.4 - 18.1)

    Ferritin, serum ------> 423 -------- (22 - 322) (Very high)

    ************************************************** *********

    Aug 30, 2007

    Testosterone Serum ----> 328 ----- (241-827)
    Testosterone Free ------> 8.5 ------(6.8 - 21.5)


    Nov 29, 2006 (7.5 weeks after since Oct 6)

    LH ---> 4.1 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH ---> 2.0 --- (1.4 - 18.1)

    Testosterone serum ---> 286 --- (241 - 827)
    Testosterone free ---> 6.32 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Climbing up but still below range
    Testosterone bioavailable ---> 142 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)

    DHEA ----> 111 --- (120 - 520)
    E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

    ALT ---> 66 --- (0 - 55) -- (I've had a bad back injury that's been lingering for weeks)


    Oct 6, 2006(Three weeks after last intake of nolvadex exactly)

    LH ---> 4.8 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH ---> 1.5 --- (1.4 - 18.1)

    Testosterone serum ---> 300 --- (241 - 827) -- Major improvement from 68 pre pct...
    Testosterone free ---> 4.60 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Still below range
    Testosterone bioavailable ---> 110 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)

    DHEA ----> 97 --- (120 - 520)
    E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

    Last edited: Aug 10, 2008
  3. my personal opinon you did not need the blood draws. I think that you just needed to regulate mineral balance. iron serum test is usless for tracking iron storage. it just shows how much iron you consumed over 24 hour peroid. Ferritin is more accurate. I think naturally you could have chelated iron with molybednum, milk thistle, lactoferrin, Great you went from one extreme to the next. Now you are iron deficit. ferritin shouls be between 130-170 for proper enzymatic functoining once it gets under 130 enyzmatic reactions in mitoichrondrion are reduced lowering ATP production. Now you need bringing body back into balance with proper nutrient balance and good lifestyle change. Any deviation in 10-20% is insignifcant in testosterone readings. If it jumped from 346 to 700 then yes that is a signifcant fine. On a good note here is something to think about..Since iron competes with zinc. There may be a good chance that you could be zinc defieincy from iron binding it up. Since lowering the iron this will allow body to increae zinc and copper absorption allow for better LH response from pituitarty. So the think to watch now is your LH levels to see if they increase. Dhea serum needs to be watch as well as this could correlate to free testosterone levels. You know AK I do not blow smoke up peoples asses and tell it as it is from scientific stand point.
  4. BigAk

    BigAk Junior Member

    Thank you HAN for your valuable input... as always...
  5. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Member

    Great post Hard I even tryed some DMSO from this link you gave me.
    Anemia and Vitamin B 12
    Wow I put some B-12 and folic acid in a 2 oz bottle with an eye dropper. I let it mix a few days and tryed an eye dropper full on my fore arms. In an hour Wow what a difference in how I felt but for me this was just a test I am seeing my Dr. tomorrow and will run this pasted him see what he thinks. After looking at my labs.
  6. People with low thyroid issues have low b-12 serums and over time folic acid will drop as well because b-12 defieincy can also mask folic acid. This also occurs vice versa. Phil when dealin with fish oils just eat fish salmon 2 times a week and you should be fine..
  7. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Member

    Also when I went on Iron pills my thyroid meds seamed to work better and I stated feeling hyper my Dr. lowered my thyroid med from 4 grains of armour down to 3 I now think he went to low. Now my FT3 is below mid range and I am having Reflux and Heartburn real bad. It started after he lowered my dose of Iron pills from 1 pill 2x's a day to just one. But 3 months ago he lowered my Armour 1 grain and I am now reading about low thyroid levels having an effect on stomach acid not enough causing this. I see my Dr. tomorrow and will be going over this the heart burn is so back it wakes me up and burns the center of my chest and up into my shoulders. At first I though it was my heart and had an EKG done all is fine. I went back on my reflux meds and it got worse I found out all the med is doing is lower the acid even more. I now feel I need to go up on my armour 30mgs.

    I noticed when I stopped my Iron pills 5 days before my labs my stools were yellow this means I am not digesting my food.
  8. HeadDoc

    HeadDoc Psychologist

    interesting thread . Please keep up with the blood work. Is there any thought about following up the Hans' observation about minerals? He keeps making the point about zinc and copper. How many have followed up with blood work? There is an old sticky about the dangers of high zinc. Is it worth reconsidering?
  9. BigAk

    BigAk Junior Member


    Thank you for making this a sticky. This has been a two year effort and I think it could be valuable to those who are going through the same road I started in 2006. I am going to keep updating it as I go along with my treatment and findings with Dr. John.

    I have been taking zinc all along for the past two years; either in the form of ZMA or as a stand alone supplement. However, per HAN's asseretion, my body may not be getting it as my high iron has been competing against it all along. Now that my iron is under control, I'm hoping that my body is taking in more of the zinc I'm providing. I realize that my latest jump in testosterone is not as high as one wold wish for, but it can't be ignored either... For the past year and half, I have been consistently registering in the low 300reds. The latest jump is something to acknowledge in my opinion.. It only shows me that I'm on the right track in figuring out my obstacle, and it's a matter of correcting all various issues that stifle my progress.

    Lately, I had a liver ultrasound done and the result came back confirming "Fatty Liver"... According to HAN, many of the major hormonal conversions happen in the liver.. If my liver is not performing optimally, this will impact my testosterone production and other hormones negatively. I have to admit that my diet has been bad. I've been eating the typical diet adopted by any Tom, Dick, and Harry... Taco Bell, Wendy's, subs, Pizza, Chinese food or Mexican food at night... No wonder my liver is fatty.. I have currently taking steps to correct this.

    Dr. John has asked me to schedule an appt. with him.. I will be speaking with him this week to see what next step we should take.

    As far as my clinical symptoms as of today:

    1) Feeling of tiredness that comes and goes.... A good nap seems to always correct this problem.
    2) Low libido... Although my performance and errections are excellent when nature calls.
    3) Feeling of well being that comes and goes...
    4) Lack of agressiveness.
    5) Easiy fatigued in the gym.

    Maybe the above symptoms are normal for a guy in his fourties... not sure.... but have to say that seeing my testosterone rise on paper has given me a good boost of morale.. I know it's still low under the standards of the guys on the boards who strive for 700 and above.... But, this begs the question: Which is better; 700 from a needle or 500 from your own???

    Last edited: Aug 13, 2008
  10. JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    Betaine HCL
    digestive enzymes
    no antacids

    read on Betaine HCL
    TESTOSTERONE NATION - Question of Strength

    Betaine HCL
    is a gastric acid
    not to be confused with
    Betaine --->TMG
  11. hackskii

    hackskii Member

    Digestive enzymes are totally awesome, so are pro-biotics.
    This will better allow you to digest your food and get more out of them.
  12. lou123

    lou123 Junior Member

    How old are you ? I think you hit the nail on the head for some of it being normal. I doubt raising your T levels to 700 with drugs will make you feel much different and will just have you juggling T and E2 levels as well as possible sides from the T such as HBP and MPB.
  13. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Member

    I was at my Dr.'s last Tue. Yet Quest labs got me again labs are not done and today I have the Dr.'s office looking to see if they are going to be able to do them.

    I told my Dr. about my FT3 levels on my last labs falling so he uppped my armour again. He told me my Heartburn and Reflux are do to my thyroid levels falling. He said this causes your stomach to make less acid and your food does not get digested and you end up with heartburn and reflux. I have meds for this and they made it worse he said that is because it is lowering the acid even more. So I got some Apple Cider Vinegar wow does this help one tsp in 4oz's of water before eating and the problems are much better. I take NOW Digestive emzymes and this helps.

    I got a link from Hard about the use of DMSO (dimethylsulfoxide)
    Anemia and Vitamin B 12
    I asked my Dr. about trying this and he said as long as I don't get a rash or a bad taste in my mouth try it.
    I mixed it ilke the link says with some B-12, Folic Acid, and a multi. vit. and put an eyedropper full on my fore arms and rubed them together. Wow if was like I got a big B-12 shot.
    Here is a cut and post on how to mix it.
    I use a two ounce bottle with an eyedropper, add 10mg of vitamin B12 (ten 1000 mcg tablets), 9.6 mg of folic acid (twelve 800 mcg tablets) and a single multivitimin-multimineral tablet and fill it with 99.9% DMSO (leaving a bubble at the top so it can be mixed when shaken). All ingredients were obtained from my local health food store. The tablets are mostly binder and take a few days to fall apart. They don't fully dissolve, but that doesn't seem to matter in terms of potency. I now use this regularly on approximately a once every month or two basis. It serves as a reasonable mood elevator for me, and I believe it contributes significantly to my general health. My interpretation is I seem to become deficient in vitamin B12 even though I take oral supplements regularly.
    In the link this helps with stomach problems and Anemia.

  14. hackskii

    hackskii Member

    Digestion becomes worse with age, and B-12 is less absorbed too.
    There are some great digestive enzymes on the market and my favorite ones are from here:
    They make a very good probiotic blend too.

    If you dont want to order online, go to trader Joes and get the Darwens blend, or you can use Twin labs digestive enzyme.
    I believe that one has ox bile in it.

    If all else fails, you can purchase hydrochloric acid tablets and many of the old time bodybuilders used to take these with their protein shakes.

    Older folks have compromised stomach acid, this leaves the food not digested properly, this is where the B-12 defiencies come to play.
    But, you can buy B-12 injectable versions online and they are very easy to shoot with an insulin needle, in fact you can buy B-complex blends and they have all the B's in them.
  15. JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    I did came across injectable cyanocobalamine,
    please post link to injectable B-complex blends.
    If not here, then thru PM.
  16. hackskii

    hackskii Member

    I dont remember where I bought it from, but it is dirt cheap and came in a 100ml bottle for very cheap.
    I will never be able to use all that. I keep it in the fridge and shoot once in a while.
    It is cheaper than tablets, and very easily assimilable.
    You can tast it in your nose after shooting it in just a few minutes.
  17. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Member

    The link is not loading up are you sure it's a good one. I am taking NOW Super Enzyme Capsules. Back before I found out I have low Ferritin and Iron I had bad Heartburn with Reflux and took meds for this and it helped. When I went on Iron pills doing 212 mgs a day of Elemental Iron as my levels of iron came back up my heartburn and reflux went away. I was able to stop meds for this and meds to help me breathe. In time taking 4 grains of Armour for my low thyroid I became to high hyper. My heart rate and BP went up and my Temps I was sweating a lot and my Dr. looked at my labs and lowered my armour from 4 grains to 3 and I felt better fast. But I stopped losing weight and now my fatigue is back and the heartburn with reflux. The armour was lowered 3 months ago on my last labs 8 weeks ago my Dr. lowered my Iron dose to 106mgs of Elemental Iron. Now I am short of breath again and feeling fatigue I feel my Dr. lowered my Armour dose to low and my labs now show this my FT3 is lower now then before I stated on Armour. I feel the Iron levels coming up helped the armour work better and this is why I felt hyper. He should not have lowed the armour 1 grain. So now I go back in to go over my labs it's been 8 weeks on the lower dose of iron.

    I will be damed if my labs are not any good quest called my Dr. a week after I did my labs and said they were not stored right. So I went in and redid them and was told they would be ready when I seen my Dr. in the next week. Well they are not ready we have no idea what I need to do and all we get from Quest labs is the labs are pending.

    When you need them the most this is what happens we can't even find out if the blood they got is any good. So here I sit the heartburn gets so bad when I sleep it wakes me up I even went into the ER thinking it's my heart. The only thing that helps is Apple Cider Vinegar but how much of this can one take in a day. I am taking it in the middle of the night and before I eat my chest burns so bad it's hard to breathe. I need to get some help with this.
  18. hackskii

    hackskii Member

    I noticed the link isnt working.
    You can e-mail them here:

    Another thing Phil that I have noticed is a problem with over production of acid is this.
    Now you wont hear much about this but, you can test your bodies PH using litmus paper, you test your urine and your saliva.
    If you are low or acidic, then you need to change your diet.
    I have written some stuff up on this on another board and can send that to you.
    I do know guys first hand that have been helped alot with changing the diet around.

    It basicly goes like this, some foods are acid ashing, some are alkaline ashing.
    Usually minerals buffer acids, if your diet is too acidic or acid ashing, then it rips off the bones among other things to ballance the bodies PH.
  19. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Member

    Yep we tested for high acid and I am not high. My Diet is very good I follow the Weight Wacthers Program. Also if my Acid was high then the meds I use to take would have helped but they made it worse. I will get the paper and do this test.
  20. wildfox

    wildfox Junior Member

    What dose of this B-complex injection is recommended?