My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT

[hackskii]

I hear all the time it takes some time to recover.

As your T levels are within refrence ranges I myself would not suggest the use of nolva.
Nolva is an agonist and antagonist to estrogen.

Might be good for the gyno but bad for the prostate..........

I think that the numbers are going in the right direction so why do anything?


I would be very happy if I was you.

 

[BigAk]

Hey Hackskii... Good to hear from you again. Hope you're well.

Anyway.... I see what you mean. However, although my numbers have been heading in the right direction, it seems like they're moving at a snail's pace also. The rate I'm going, I should be in mid-range by year 2020.. (exagerating... lol).. But, I can't help but think that there's something getting in the way perhaps that's preventing my body from jumping good leaps. I know that my DHEA is very very low as my blood work shows. I'm wondering if I help replenish my levels by supplementing with 25mg/day of DHEA could help me reach my goal faster??? My only reservation has been that I fear that by doing so I'll damage my HPTA... But, I'm not sure if that will happen though.. I'm just speculating.... What do you think?

 

[hackskii]

I think DHEA would be just fine supplementing and I dont think it would interfere with recovery of the HPTA.

Only problem I see with DHEA is it tends to elivate estrogen in men, but at 25mg a day that probably wont be an issue.
DHEA is great for adrenal issues and adrenal burnout, many life extention folks use DHEA and melatonin.

I really like melatonin too, gives me some pretty wild dreams and some deep sleep, as you know REM sleep raises GH production at night.
Probably a good thing for leydig cell sensitivity.
I would add that as it is cheap and totally non habit forming.
Melatonin along with all hormones decline with age.

Vitamin E is said to help leydig cells too, so it would not hurt supplementing that.

ZMA at night before bed is also said to elivate test levels.

Comming from a steroid type background in all this, I have heard many stories that it takes a year or more to fully recover.
But, I dont see any problems trying to speed things along.
There are many natural aromatase inhibitors like dessicated liver, cruciferous vegetables, zinc among other things, might be worth a try doing some read me's on that.

Because you are so far along, I dont think adding in nolvadex right now would be the best approach.
LH many times in men will be elivated due to the leydig cells not being as sensitive or responsive to LH to produce Testosterone.
I think HGH and Vitamin E help here so I cant say for sure really but it would make sense to supplement that.

Other than that I am just fine, still kicking along and trying to not let things worry or bother me.
My girlfriend seems to be spending money faster than I am making it.
Fix is just work more overtime, but my goal is to work less and play more but that is not happening.....lol

 

[pmgamer18]

With all that has been said I feel you need to run this by Dr. John be safe not sorry.

 

[coz]

Low DHEA can be a sign of Adrenal Fatigue. Have you had that checked out ? A.F can be a cause of low test

 

[BigAk]

Low DHEA can be a sign of Adrenal Fatigue. Have you had that checked out ? A.F can be a cause of low test

Hi Coz... Hope you're well.. Funny I was just looking for your userid over at anabolic minds last night to contact you but it was too late and I was tired. Anyway.. I wanted you to check out the discussion over there -----> https://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/74485-help-needed-bloodwork.html

Please do...

No I have not checked myself out for adrenal fatigue... But, I have a whole bunch of blood work results to show you if needed. I have not posted the complete panel on here.

 

[Nemesis RR]

BigAk what made you want to give up the TRT? I would understand wanting to quit doing cycles but what was wrong with a low dose of test? From your post I get that you were doing Androgel and a 200 mg shot, that is not really considered HRT. Did you not feel well on say 100mg a week of Test? I apologize for all the questions but I am 38 and thinking of going on TRT.

 

[coz]

Hi Coz... Hope you're well.. Funny I was just looking for your userid over at anabolic minds last night to contact you but it was too late and I was tired. Anyway.. I wanted you to check out the discussion over there -----> https://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/74485-help-needed-bloodwork.html

Please do...

No I have not checked myself out for adrenal fatigue... But, I have a whole bunch of blood work results to show you if needed. I have not posted the complete panel on here.

Hi BigAK, I've responded on your AM thread

 

[BigAk]

Long-term low-dose dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in aging males with partial androgen deficiency.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS) age-related withdrawal is very likely to be involved in the aging process and the onset of age-related diseases, giving rise to the question of whether preventing or compensating the decline of these steroids may have endocrine and clinical benefits. The aim of the present trial was to evaluate the endocrine, neuroendocrine and clinical consequences of a long-term (1 year), low-dose (25 mg/day) replacement therapy in a group of aging men who presented the clinical characteristics of partial androgen deficiency (PADAM). Circulating DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, total testosterone and free testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), progesterone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, allopregnanolone, estrone, estradiol, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), cortisol, follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) levels were evaluated monthly to assess the endocrine effects of the therapy, while beta-endorphin values were used as a marker of the neuroendocrine effects. A Kupperman questionnaire was performed to evaluate the subjective symptoms before and after treatment. The results showed a great modification of the endocrine profile; with the exception of cortisol levels, which remained unchanged, DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, total and free testosterone, DHT, progesterone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estrone, estradiol, GH, IGF-1 and beta-endorphin levels increased significantly with respect to baseline values, while FSH, LH and SHBG levels showed a significant decrease. The Kupperman score indicated a progressive improvement in mood, fatigue and joint pain. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that 25 mg/day of DHEA is able to cause significant changes in the hormonal profile and clinical symptoms and can counteract the age-related decline of endocrine and neuroendocrine functions. Restoring DHEA levels to young adult values seems to benefit the age-related decline in physiological functions but, however promising, placebo-controlled trials are required to confirm these preliminary results.

PMID: 15672938 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[pmgamer18]

I have been low on DHEA and take 25mgs of it a day for yrs. About 5 months a go I found out I have low Aldosterone meaning I am secondary (hyporeninemic hypoaldosteronism). I was put on Florinef .1mgs a day. Now my test for DHEA-S is way over the top of the range.486 range 25 to 95 mcg/dl. Yet last months test was just DHEA and it was low 78 range 180 to 1250 ng/dl. The month before this it was a DHEA-S test and high 358 25 to 95 mcg/dl. Now lets keep going back this test DHEA 63 low range 180 to 1250 ng/dl. And this test was before starting Florinef DHEA -S done at a different lab this test was good 326 range 80 to 560 ug/dl.

I think Quest is full of it how can DHEA be to low and DHEA-S be to high.

 

[BigAk]

I think Quest is full of it how can DHEA be to low and DHEA-S be to high.

That sure does not make sense.. I thought Quest was the most reliable lab for blood work!!!!

 

[BigAk]

Alright fellas... For those of you who've been following my journal... Below are my very latest blood results as of 2/18/2008.

It seems like my Testosterone is climbing up but at a snail's pace but still in low but normal range.
Notice the big difference in my Bioavailable testosterone and the big jump from the start @ 110 to the end @ 198. But, I'm not sure what the range is...
Also; my E2 has climbed up from 7 to 8 ( still pretty low)

Note how high my Ferritin is ... I'm not sure what an impact this will have on the rest of my levels.

I'm not sure what the future holds any more...

************************************************************************

Feb 18, 2008

Testosterone Serum ----> 376 ----- (241-827)
Testosterone Free ------> 9.05 ------(6.8 - 21.5)
Testosterone bioavailable ---> 198 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
E2 ----> 8 --- (3 - 70)
LH ---> 6.2 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH ---> 2.9 --- (1.4 - 18.1)

Ferritin, serum ------> 423 -------- (22 - 322) (Very high)


***********************************************************

Aug 30, 2007

Testosterone Serum ----> 328 ----- (241-827)
Testosterone Free ------> 8.5 ------(6.8 - 21.5)


*********************************************


Nov 29, 2006 (7.5 weeks after since Oct 6)

LH ---> 4.1 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH ---> 2.0 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
Testosterone serum ---> 286 --- (241 - 827)
Testosterone free ---> 6.32 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Climbing up but still below range
Testosterone bioavailable ---> 142 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
DHEA ----> 111 --- (120 - 520)
E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

ALT ---> 66 --- (0 - 55) -- (I've had a bad back injury that's been lingering for weeks)

*********************************************

Oct 6, 2006(Three weeks after last intake of Nolvadex exactly)

LH ---> 4.8 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH ---> 1.5 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
Testosterone serum ---> 300 --- (241 - 827) -- Major improvement from 68 pre PCT...
Testosterone free ---> 4.60 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Still below range
Testosterone bioavailable ---> 110 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
DHEA ----> 97 --- (120 - 520)
E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

*********************************************

 

[hardasnails1973]

That sure does not make sense.. I thought Quest was the most reliable lab for blood work!!!!

Problems with sulfuration of the liver causing you to be slow converter.
How much vitamin C are you taking? pull back. You need to have transferritin checked and also start upping chelators such as mik thistel and lactoferrin to get that shit down. hemochromatosis could be the result of your low tesotsterone BigAK so domating blood may be in your future. Why your e2 is low possible low copper can do this. Is your igf-1 level or dhea levels are low then you might need to check into this. Boron can raise estrogen as well as more testosterone. E2 could be low because you have low armotase. So to raise estrogen one could eat soy and tofo, but as long as your other indicatores. A possible solution to why iron is high is because of copper imbalnces since copper is metabolize iron that mechanism could not be working properly. Also molybdenum will help reduce ferritin because helps to release iron from its storage..

My next step would be copper serum and ceruoplamsin and if abnormal results then look at 24 urine test for copper to see if it getting locked in the tissue causing a bio defeicny. I found this with another client and also my self...It was a big discovery !!

 

[JanSz]

Alright fellas... For those of you who've been following my journal... Below are my very latest blood results as of 2/18/2008.

It seems like my Testosterone is climbing up but at a snail's pace but still in low but normal range.
Notice the big difference in my Bioavailable testosterone and the big jump from the start @ 110 to the end @ 198. But, I'm not sure what the range is...
Also; my E2 has climbed up from 7 to 8 ( still pretty low)

Note how high my Ferritin is ... I'm not sure what an impact this will have on the rest of my levels.

I'm not sure what the future holds any more...

************************************************************************

Feb 18, 2008

Testosterone Serum ----> 376 ----- (241-827)
Testosterone Free ------> 9.05 ------(6.8 - 21.5)
Testosterone bioavailable ---> 198 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
E2 ----> 8 --- (3 - 70)
LH ---> 6.2 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH ---> 2.9 --- (1.4 - 18.1)

Ferritin, serum ------> 423 -------- (22 - 322) (Very high)


***********************************************************

Aug 30, 2007

Testosterone Serum ----> 328 ----- (241-827)
Testosterone Free ------> 8.5 ------(6.8 - 21.5)


*********************************************


Nov 29, 2006 (7.5 weeks after since Oct 6)

LH ---> 4.1 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH ---> 2.0 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
Testosterone serum ---> 286 --- (241 - 827)
Testosterone free ---> 6.32 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Climbing up but still below range
Testosterone bioavailable ---> 142 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
DHEA ----> 111 --- (120 - 520)
E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

ALT ---> 66 --- (0 - 55) -- (I've had a bad back injury that's been lingering for weeks)

*********************************************

Oct 6, 2006(Three weeks after last intake of Nolvadex exactly)

LH ---> 4.8 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
FSH ---> 1.5 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
Testosterone serum ---> 300 --- (241 - 827) -- Major improvement from 68 pre PCT...
Testosterone free ---> 4.60 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Still below range
Testosterone bioavailable ---> 110 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
DHEA ----> 97 --- (120 - 520)
E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

*********************************************

Post #1 have a date
07-12-2006, 11:42 PM

3/6/2008 =today
7/12/2006
your saga is 603 days old and no progress.


There is something else going on that you are not telling, beacuse it does not adds up.

You are not even close to any good numbers.
Your Total T is vey low
Your E2 is extremely low.
You are doing some kind of funky calculations for FreeT trying to raise a hope.
FreeT calculator uses SHBG you do not have that number.
Even if you got SHBG=0 calculator would not come out with numbers you are posting.

You are computer programer so you know how to work numbers, so you must be doing it purposely.

Do not know what to say about your high ferritin, but get Hematocrit tested.
=============================================================
Take some action, you are hurting your beautiful body.
.
.

 

[BigAk]

Problems with sulfuration of the liver causing you to be slow converter.
How much vitamin C are you taking? pull back. You need to have transferritin checked and also start upping chelators such as mik thistel and lactoferrin to get that shit down. hemochromatosis could be the result of your low tesotsterone BigAK so domating blood may be in your future. Why your e2 is low possible low copper can do this. Is your igf-1 level or dhea levels are low then you might need to check into this. Boron can raise estrogen as well as more testosterone. E2 could be low because you have low armotase. So to raise estrogen one could eat soy and tofo, but as long as your other indicatores. A possible solution to why iron is high is because of copper imbalnces since copper is metabolize iron that mechanism could not be working properly. Also molybdenum will help reduce ferritin because helps to release iron from its storage..

My next step would be copper serum and ceruoplamsin and if abnormal results then look at 24 urine test for copper to see if it getting locked in the tissue causing a bio defeicny. I found this with another client and also my self...It was a big discovery !!

Hi Han... Sorry for not writing earlier ... had a crazy busy couple of days at work.. But, anyway...

Yea... Dr. John is checking on a few things with regards to possible hemochromatosis. Just did another blood test and waiting to hear from him.

So you really think high ferritin could interfere with my testosterone production?? I tried to find supporting research but could not find any.. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right places. If you have some research please let me know.

As far as my copper, it could be out of wack.... For over a year now, I've been on ZMA and been reading that Zinc may cause copper to plummet but I haven't been supplementing with copper.

Dr. John has the results of my organic acid test and rihnes test.. They didn't mail those to me. But, the ferritin stuck out like a sore thumb.

.

 

[BigAk]

There is something else going on that you are not telling, beacuse it does not adds up.

You are not even close to any good numbers.
Your Total T is vey low
Your E2 is extremely low.
You are doing some kind of funky calculations for FreeT trying to raise a hope.
FreeT calculator uses SHBG you do not have that number.
Even if you got SHBG=0 calculator would not come out with numbers you are posting.

You are computer programer so you know how to work numbers, so you must be doing it purposely.

Do not know what to say about your high ferritin, but get Hematocrit tested.
=============================================================
Take some action, you are hurting your beautiful body.
.
.

Jan... I am hiding absolutely nothing brother... I promise... Actually I do have my SHBG... I just didn't post all the results... But, here you go:

SHBG ----> 26 ----- (13 - 71)
Albumin, serum -------> 4.0 ----- (3.5 - 5.5)
Total Testosterone ------> 376 ------ (241 - 827)

Plug these numbers using the calculator that you gave me, I end up with

Testosterone Free ------> 9.05 ------(6.8 - 21.5)
Testosterone bioavailable ---> 198

Try it for yourself, so hopefully you'll believe me.
.

 

[BigAk]

As far as taking action, we're working on it Jan.... me; along with Dr. John... I may end up on TRT again in the near future... Who knows?? I have accepted this fact already....

BTW... Thanks for the compliment... LOL

.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Hi Han... Sorry for not writing earlier ... had a crazy busy couple of days at work.. But, anyway...

Yea... Dr. John is checking on a few things with regards to possible hemochromatosis. Just did another blood test and waiting to hear from him.

So you really think high ferritin could interfere with my testosterone production?? I tried to find supporting research but could not find any.. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right places. If you have some research please let me know.

As far as my copper, it could be out of wack.... For over a year now, I've been on ZMA and been reading that Zinc may cause copper to plummet but I haven't been supplementing with copper.

Dr. John has the results of my organic acid test and rihnes test.. They didn't mail those to me. But, the ferritin stuck out like a sore thumb.

.

I am copper deficint as well test came back 76 (70-150) and this was taking 2 mgs of multi up untill the test !!
Go figure. your copper could be low for fact of low estrogen not taking it up for absorption. Low estrogen = low copper and zinc would be driving that already into the shitter so to speak. I tested 2 clinets on copper and both of them came up deifeinct. GO FIGURE !!

 

[jinxie1]

Jan... I am hiding absolutely nothing brother... I promise... Actually I do have my SHBG... I just didn't post all the results... But, here you go:

SHBG ----> 26 ----- (13 - 71)
Albumin, serum -------> 4.0 ----- (3.5 - 5.5)
Total Testosterone ------> 376 ------ (241 - 827)

Plug these numbers using the calculator that you gave me, I end up with

Testosterone Free ------> 9.05 ------(6.8 - 21.5)
Testosterone bioavailable ---> 198

Try it for yourself, so hopefully you'll believe me.
.

BigAK, I read your diary entries with admiration. You certainly have a tenacious spirit. I can't say I fully appreciate your reluctance to go on TRT, after trying the re-start over a lengthy period of time, but I'm sure you have valid reasons. We have to do what feels right for each of us.

It sounds like Jans feel similarly. He's just giving you some tough love.

Hang in there, brother.

 

[hackskii]

Hell, my test levels this month were only 257 and I dont feel bad at all.
Sure It would be nice to have a little higher libido but I am almost 50 and I really dont want to go on TRT.

BigAk, if you feel fine where you are at why go on TRT?
Some guys just hover in the lower end of things and are fine with that.
It could be the case that your SHBG is a bit low due to the estrogen being low and free test could be higher, which might make things seem as bad as it appears.

If you got good sex drive, then I doubt you are going to have any problems.
Morning wood is always a good thing and if you get that then I would not worry yourself.