My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT

[coz]

I've been on my 2nd run of novladex for about 9+ weeks now. When I first started it - libido was down, errections not great and had emotionally up and down days. Was strong at the gym though & nuts felt full.

I decided that was part of taking the SERMS and would just ride it out for a few months - if it can get me back to normal its worth it for a few months - right ?

Anyway from about week 6-7 onwards things really started to pick up, hard wood throughout the night and most mornings, quality errections when I try, and some days libido that drives me crazy (although this is not that frequent), as well as emotionally very centered & brain functioning well.

Basically I think it takes your body awhile to get used to the change in hormone levels created from the novladex, as well as the novladex itself. Remeber our body's always try to bring everything back to homieostatus - but this takes time.

My advice would be either stop everything and ride it out if you feel happy with your levels at 300. Or if you would like to try to get them higher, then run 20mg a day novladex - but be prepared that is wont fix everything overnight, and u may have ups & downs for a good 6-8 weeks.

 

[Recless]

If you do not do this and choose to take an AI like Arimidex, estrogen will rebound right back up once you come off the arimidex. And, to compound things, the hypothalamus will have developed a hypersensitivity condition due to the lack of estrogen signal, and cause another HPTA stall, again. To avoid this you will have to stay on arimidex indefinitely, and that puts you right back where you started.
That is why I say, "AI's won't work here because they only treat the symptom of high E. If you rely on an AI you will just crash again once you come off the AI since you haven't treated the root of the problem."

Great point....Looking back I now know the inclusion of low dose aromsin was the cause of my crash and the reason I have still not recovered. It's the only explanation why a PCT that has worked for me time and time again failed. Not to mention resulted in gyno ~ 1 1/2 months off PCT when I have never in my life had signs of it even on a heavy aromatizing cycle. At the time I was developing gyno my E2 was not high so I beleive what van says to be true with regard to the hypothalamus simply being extremely hypersensitive to estrogen. There was nothing in my bloodwork to indicate why I was getting gyno...prolactin was very low, progesterone normal, thyroid normal, etc....

 

[Recless]

I've been on my 2nd run of novladex for about 9+ weeks now. When I first started it - libido was down, errections not great and had emotionally up and down days. Was strong at the gym though & nuts felt full.

I decided that was part of taking the SERMS and would just ride it out for a few months - if it can get me back to normal its worth it for a few months - right ?

Anyway from about week 6-7 onwards things really started to pick up, hard wood throughout the night and most mornings, quality errections when I try, and some days libido that drives me crazy (although this is not that frequent), as well as emotionally very centered & brain functioning well.

Basically I think it takes your body awhile to get used to the change in hormone levels created from the novladex, as well as the novladex itself. Remeber our body's always try to bring everything back to homieostatus - but this takes time.

My advice would be either stop everything and ride it out if you feel happy with your levels at 300. Or if you would like to try to get them higher, then run 20mg a day novladex - but be prepared that is wont fix everything overnight, and u may have ups & downs for a good 6-8 weeks.

I totally agree...I am 5 weeks into this run of nolvadex and the ups and downs have been like a roller coaster but starting to level out very slowly. In the first month there were days where my libido was through the roof and I couldn't function I was so distracted...then wham the next day I couldn't get hard if Pamela Anderson was sitting on my lap....lol

 

[ccrtx7]

These things are good for me to hear about Nolva. Anyone who has ever COMPLETELY shut themselves down from aas use or TRT knows what I am talking about. It is human nature, that if you wake up like I felt yesterday, to want to change what you are doing or freak out or whatever. People who have taken high doses of aas, but then used a good PCT and gotten back to homeostasis knows these ups and downs are part of the game. Shit, when I used to use I remember the clomid rollercoaster I would go on at times, but since the last time I used and completely shut myself down, I have been scared shitless of not feeling good again.

I am going to see this Nolva through, and I really do think it is going to help. I am also very excited to get my bloodwork done tomorrow. It is really gonna tell me a whole lot, considering it has been A YEAR since I last had it done.

I'll check in here later......

 

[ccrtx7]

I totally agree...I am 5 weeks into this run of nolvadex and the ups and downs have been like a roller coaster but starting to level out very slowly. In the first month there were days where my libido was through the roof and I couldn't function I was so distracted...then wham the next day I couldn't get hard if Pamela Anderson was sitting on my lap....lol

Recless, you probably could have gotten hard, you just wouldn't want her sitting there and would ask her politely to get off of your lap

 

[BigAk]

Basically I think it takes your body awhile to get used to the change in hormone levels created from the novladex, as well as the novladex itself. Remeber our body's always try to bring everything back to homieostatus - but this takes time.

My advice would be either stop everything and ride it out if you feel happy with your levels at 300. Or if you would like to try to get them higher, then run 20mg a day novladex - but be prepared that is wont fix everything overnight, and u may have ups & downs for a good 6-8 weeks.

I agree... It takes the body a while to get used to new hormonal status as it tried to re-adjust itself to reach equilibrium.

I'm not sure what I'll do for now. I think the fact that I stopped all cold turkey is a bad mistake also. Today, I felt panicy..etc... that I had to take a half a xanax and slept it off. I feel fine again now. I'm thinking about starting again but really slowly.. meaning 2.5mg/day and then increase slowly to 20mg/day.... hold it there for a few weeks then taper back really slowly. I think with such slow taper, the sides will be very little since I'm giving my body enough time to adjust.

Funny thing is; I recall that I used to take 20mg of Nolvadex with my cycles of AAS with no issues whatsoever. .... no sides at all.. and would even quit it cold turkey and not feel anything bad. Why is that I'm feeling it too much now that I'm natural?

 

[BigAk]

As far as Crisler's opinion that total estrogen is a useless lab report... whatever! He offers no insight as to why he considers it irrelevant so, unless I am willing to unquestionably appeal to his HRT authority, which I am not, then I consider that to be just one man's opinion.
I promise you that no matter what type of estrogen the hypothalamus is sensing, it will order the shut down of LH production if the levels are too high.

Makes sense.... I too, have a feeling that Total estrogen plays a major role in recovery. I wonder why it takes the body such a long time to return estrogen levels back to normal!!

My E2 is pretty low... and I don't even know what my total Estrogen is. I think I will order Total Estrogen test on my own next time.

 

[BigAk]

Great point....Looking back I now know the inclusion of low dose aromsin was the cause of my crash and the reason I have still not recovered. It's the only explanation why a PCT that has worked for me time and time again failed. Not to mention resulted in gyno ~ 1 1/2 months off PCT when I have never in my life had signs of it even on a heavy aromatizing cycle. At the time I was developing gyno my E2 was not high so I beleive what van says to be true with regard to the hypothalamus simply being extremely hypersensitive to estrogen. There was nothing in my bloodwork to indicate why I was getting gyno...prolactin was very low, progesterone normal, thyroid normal, etc....

Hi Recless... Sorry for not getting back to you yet on the PM, but I was thinking that your gyno could have been progesterone related, but apparently not. Let us know how your next bloodwork comes out. I hope you'll do well.

 

[BigAk]

Recless, you probably could have gotten hard, you just wouldn't want her sitting there and would ask her politely to get off of your lap

LOL... I got a wife that could be Pamela's sister..... no joke...

 

[van-man]

I I'm thinking about starting again but really slowly.. meaning 2.5mg/day and then increase slowly to 20mg/day.... hold it there for a few weeks then taper back really slowly. I think with such slow taper, the sides will be very little since I'm giving my body enough time to adjust.

I think that is a great idea.

Funny thing is; I recall that I used to take 20mg of Nolvadex with my cycles of AAS with no issues whatsoever. .... no sides at all.. and would even quit it cold turkey and not feel anything bad. Why is that I'm feeling it too much now that I'm natural?

The body gets more sensitive with age... my 65yr old dad gets the same sides from 250mg of test like I do 600mg! Go figure

 

[BigAk]

Dr. John has recommended that I supplement with 25mg/day of DHEA since my levels are below normal

DHEA ----> 111 --- (120 - 520)

Trouble is I'm scared that any DHEA will convert into estrogen in my body and limit any further HPTA recovery... What do you guys think? Am I being illogical here??

Keep in my mind that my E2 is at 7 ( 3 -- 70)... But, I have no idea what my total Estrogen is since Dr. John believes it's an invalid assay generally.

What do you guys think have caused my DHEA to be so low?? Is that normal due to extended periods of AAS and HRT?? coupled with my age 40??

Anyway.... Shall I supplement with 25mg/day of the stuff without worries??

 

[pmgamer18]

Yes but get some good DHEA there is a lot of junk out there I use this brand and was doing 2 pills a Day and my E's never changed but my DHEA went up over the top of the range when I started on Cortef. Sometimes low DHEA has to do with low cortisol and thyroid levels. My Wife's Dr. has her on 50mgs a day she is lower then you and it made her feel much better. Her skin is not dry anymore and her testosterone levels went up along with her libido .
I am now just doing 25mgs a day. I see no problems with you doing this.

This is the brand I use and when My Wife's Dr. sold her some it was the same brand.
http://www.myvitanet.com/dhea260capph.html

Dr. John has recommended that I supplement with 25mg/day of DHEA since my levels are below normal

DHEA ----> 111 --- (120 - 520)

Trouble is I'm scared that any DHEA will convert into estrogen in my body and limit any further HPTA recovery... What do you guys think? Am I being illogical here??

Keep in my mind that my E2 is at 7 ( 3 -- 70)... But, I have no idea what my total Estrogen is since Dr. John believes it's an invalid assay generally.

What do you guys think have caused my DHEA to be so low?? Is that normal due to extended periods of AAS and HRT?? coupled with my age 40??

Anyway.... Shall I supplement with 25mg/day of the stuff without worries??

 

[hackskii]

If my memory serves me correctly, testosterone can be raised in women using DHEA.
And estrogen can raise using DHEA in men.
But at 25mg I highly doubt this will be a factor.
If you are that worried about it take 50mg of zinc a day (natural aromatase inhibitor).
Dessicated liver can serve as a mild aromatase inhibitor as well.

 

[BigAk]

If my memory serves me correctly, testosterone can be raised in women using DHEA.
And estrogen can raise using DHEA in men.
But at 25mg I highly doubt this will be a factor.
If you are that worried about it take 50mg of zinc a day (natural aromatase inhibitor).
Dessicated liver can serve as a mild aromatase inhibitor as well.

you're right hackskii... DHEA may convert to estrogen in men, and that's my concern. But, according to Dr. John and Phil also, at 25mg there's little issue. However, I am coinciding my DHEA intake along with a cycle of Nolvadex.

 

[BigAk]

This is the brand I use and when My Wife's Dr. sold her some it was the same brand.
http://www.myvitanet.com/dhea260capph.html

Thank you Phil for giving me the link. I'm gonna order this particular brand of dhea.

 

[Ramstein II]

Well, I'll tell ya guys... for me the way it works is that I start with a high libido at the end of a cycle thanks to the AAS and HCG, then I switch to the SERM only phase of PCT and my libido crashes. Everything still works, but I just don't feel like using it, ya know? Anyway, I've had this period last for two to three weeks before it begins the turnaround. Once the turn around starts, everything starts coming back real quick. QUOTE]

For those of you struggling with fear of losing libido on SERMS, I can atest to what Van-Man is saying. Look at this way, your libido is crap when you come off of HRT or a cycle anyway, so who cares if a SERM compounds it. I must say this though, I am 9 weeks out from my last T injection and feel absolutely fantastic. I'm about 2.5 weeks out from my last Nolvadex dose which was a tapered low dose, so the Nolva is virtually out of my system (5-7 day half life). My libido started climbing in direct correlation to tapering Nolva and is now as high as ever. I like sex much better off of T supplement. I think FSH and sperm production play a role in libido. But, anyway, the good news is that libido only suffers for 2-3 weeks. No big deal really.

When your natural system recovers and the SERMS wear off, it's like BANG you feel like doing it. In fact, I feel so good now that I'm questioning whether I'll ever do a cycle again (maybe not for a very long time or until I'm old and need TRT).

I am so glad I followed the PCT of HCG + Nolva. My doc originally tried to talk me into tapering off T and recovering naturally. With PCT my recovery was remarkable and I feel great. Energy, workout recovery, libido etc... all fantastic! I hope all those wanting to be natural again can obtain these results.

 

[hackskii]

Wow, that is cool.

 

[van-man]

While this thread is on the whole libido topic, I want to throw out some more information I've learned through my blood tests of this last PCT.
I think the whole dogma about nolva raising SHBG my be a bit over hyped. At week one of my PCT SHBG was at 30nmol/L; by the end of week 8 it had risen to the staggering height of 33nmol/L!
What is also worth noting is that at the end of my cycle, I had been using winstrol, which is also known for its ability to lower SHBG. In light of the winstrol information, one could argue that all the SHBG did was return to its normal levels during PCT. Whatever the case, I don't think that an increase in SHBG is something that needs a whole lot of consideration.

 

[wildfox]

While this thread is on the whole libido topic, I want to throw out some more information I've learned through my blood tests of this last PCT.
I think the whole dogma about nolva raising SHBG my be a bit over hyped. At week one of my PCT SHBG was at 30nmol/L; by the end of week 8 it had risen to the staggering height of 33nmol/L!
What is also worth noting is that at the end of my cycle, I had been using winstrol, which is also known for its ability to lower SHBG. In light of the winstrol information, one could argue that all the SHBG did was return to its normal levels during PCT. Whatever the case, I don't think that an increase in SHBG is something that needs a whole lot of consideration.

That's interesting information.

The lack of libido on Nolvadex may have nothing to do with SHBG binding Testosterone. I believe having too little estrogen (not sure which, estradiol) could also lower libido. Nolvadex jamming up estrogen receptors in the pituary (which we like: causes increased LH and FSH) could be the reason for lower libido while on it (because it blocks other estrogen receptors that we want for libido).

Pure speculation on my part. I have no proof, but I've read here that some guys taking too much DIM (caused estradiol to be too low) complain of low libido as those whose estradiol is too high.

 

[hackskii]

Absolutly low estrogen can cause poor libido.

I think we have to remember here that nolva as well as clomid is an agonist and antagonist to estrogen.
In some parts of the body it will act as an estrogen.
Similar to nolva and estrogen causing uterine cancer.
The prostate comes from the same embryonic tissue as the uterus.
So, as you can see there is some risk to the uterus for estrogen and nolvadex while the nolva can protect the woman from estrogen seneitive tissue in the breast from developing cancer.

Many guys say they feel like women when they take clomid.

But everyone is diffrent and for every guy that says it kills libido there are probably 5 guys that say it does not.

I can tell you one thing that nolva does. It lowered my cholesterol tons, in fact lowest I ever saw it was when I was doing a PCT and was using nolva.

Anyway, just some thoughts to kick around here.