My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT

[hackskii]

Well, if you are gettin morning wood, and erections are not a problem then id say leave things the way they are, its not like it is going to get worse is it?

I think some times if you feel good then why look for something to be out of order?

I think circadian rythem might have something to do with variables in blood work, along with the amount of stress one has, diet, sleep..........

 

[BigAk]

Well, if you are gettin morning wood, and erections are not a problem then id say leave things the way they are, its not like it is going to get worse is it?

I think some times if you feel good then why look for something to be out of order?

I think circadian rythem might have something to do with variables in blood work, along with the amount of stress one has, diet, sleep..........

Hey hacksii... Good to hear from you.

Yeah... You make alot of sense. I guess my expectations could be a little high given what I've been through, and only time will heal all things. One positive thing about the last blood panel is that I did not suffer a relapse since almost 8 weeks prior (with no meds intervention whatsoever). That; coupled with the fact that my Free Test and bio Test are on the rise, I feel I should view the whole thing in a more positive outlook.

 

[hackskii]

Hey hacksii... Good to hear from you.

Yeah... You make alot of sense. I guess my expectations could be a little high given what I've been through, and only time will heal all things. One positive thing about the last blood panel is that I did not suffer a relapse since almost 8 weeks prior (with no meds intervention whatsoever). That; coupled with the fact that my Free Test and bio Test are on the rise, I feel I should view the whole thing in a more positive outlook.

Absolutly.
Didnt you use Swale this time? I cant remember its been a while and I dont visit this board much.

One thing though, some guys have naturally lower testosterone levels (I do) and have no problems. If you feel fine but dont like the numbers then id say you are just fine.
I think if you get too into the numbers you will be worrying about something that is really nothing.

Unless the numbers are low and is creating some kind of lipid profile issues and lean muscle mass loss and ED and stuff like that then yah, no brainer.
But if you dont suffer from any signs of low test levels then its all good.
After all its not like a bank account with money in it where the larger number is always better

If you feel good and dont have to go on TRT then you are way ahead of the game here.

Id be quiet happy with your progress.
Even small things like ZMA at night before bed can help things subtly.

All in all id say its all good mate.
Im sure you are fine.
I would put your worries into something like getting laid instead.... haaaaa haaaaa

Which leads me to a topic.
If prolactin is elivated after orgasim and lowering prolactin puts LH receptors at risk, would orgasims raising prolactin elivate LH recepters sensitivity or sensitize LH receptors?
If that is the case could this elivate testosterone vie way of LH sensitivity?
Hmmmmm, just a though.
Id really like to know the answer to that one.
Maybe I should post that question.
That is a good idea.

 

[Matt Muscle]

*********************************************
Notice that my bioavailable test has gone up from 110 to 142 although my total T has virtually kept the same.

I don't know what to conclude... I'm thinking about doing another round of Clomid and Nolvadex.. Or shall I just wait a few more months and see what happens?? I have not lost hope, and I'm not going to jump into TRT. I've read about guys who took a good year or more to recover fully. I've been off HRT for merely 5 months now. I'm not even suffering any bad symptoms.

My clinical response: I'm feeling pretty good. I have no depression nor anxiety. Although my libido is not nagging, I have no issue getting turned on. My erection quality is excellent too. Morning wood is about 5-6 out of 7. My energy and strength in the gym are pretty good.

What do you guys suggest at this point??

What were your Total and Free T levels and LH and FSH like when you were on the SERM therapy? I assume you took clomid and Nolvadex intially and then followed with just Nolvadex for a decent period of time with a very slow taper?
Your levels are still borderline low.. but if you are feeling fine that is indeed a good sign.
It would be intersting to see how high your T levels got whilst being stimulated by the SERMS.

 

[BigAk]

What were your Total and Free T levels and LH and FSH like when you were on the SERM therapy? I assume you took clomid and Nolvadex intially and then followed with just Nolvadex for a decent period of time with a very slow taper?
Your levels are still borderline low.. but if you are feeling fine that is indeed a good sign.
It would be intersting to see how high your T levels got whilst being stimulated by the SERMS.

Dr. John did not order blood work during my treatment. So, I have no way of telling what my test levels were even though I was wondering the same thing. Apparently; It was more important to do blood work after all meds are out of my system to insure that I have not suffered a relapse which really makes sense actually. The true measure of recovery is determined after all serms are not in the equation. Now, after two months of ending the serms, I have not relapsed back to 68 of total T, and I'm feeling great in all aspects. I think it has to do with the ratios. Altough my total T is in the 300, my E2 is 7 which is also low.

I feel that in time things will get better even. It's apparent that my body is trying to climb up slowly. my Free T is increasing; so is my bioavailable. Also my DHEA is going up without supplementation which is a good sign.

I plan to wait about 3 to 4 more months and do another bloodwork to see where I am. Afterall, I've been away from HRT for merely 5 months now.

 

[van-man]

Big Ak, I'm glad to see you're sharing again.
First I want to give you the range for your bioavailable...the scale range runs from 110 - 575ng/dl. To give you something to compare to, I was at 128.4 on the fourth week of my last PCT and my total test at that point was 467! My doctor reminds me everytime I see him that bioavailable is all that really matters in real life so, that might explain your good mood etc.

Now, as far as the rest of your stuff goes, here is my unsolicited $0.02.
I think it should be very encouraging to see that your levels have held relatively firm from your first to second blood test; however, I think in light of this knowledge, you should get back on the nolvadex to encourage the levels to climb nearer to your desired levels. Nolvadex will boost your LH and allow test levels to go on the rise again. Once blood work has confirmed that you are within a satisfactory and liveable range, you can taper off the nolva to allow your HPTA to come in for a nice soft landing at its new functional home.

 

[Matt Muscle]

I agree. Getting labs done during the course of nolvadex IMO would be very usefull for that exact reason. So you can tell WHEN your levels have reached a more appropriate target.

 

[BigAk]

Big Ak, I'm glad to see you're sharing again.
First I want to give you the range for your bioavailable...the scale range runs from 110 - 575ng/dl. To give you something to compare to, I was at 128.4 on the fourth week of my last PCT and my total test at that point was 467! My doctor reminds me everytime I see him that bioavailable is all that really matters in real life so, that might explain your good mood etc.

Now, as far as the rest of your stuff goes, here is my unsolicited $0.02.
I think it should be very encouraging to see that your levels have held relatively firm from your first to second blood test; however, I think in light of this knowledge, you should get back on the nolvadex to encourage the levels to climb nearer to your desired levels. Nolvadex will boost your LH and allow test levels to go on the rise again. Once blood work has confirmed that you are within a satisfactory and liveable range, you can taper off the nolva to allow your HPTA to come in for a nice soft landing at its new functional home.

Hey van-man.... Good to hear from you again... Thank you for letting me know what the range for bioavailable test is.. I was going to post a new thread to ask this particular question...lol

I agree with you.. I am very encouraged by the fact that my levels have held tight over the weeks with my free and bioavailable test climbing up; hence feeling great . I think your suggestion is sound. Running a round of Nolvadex at this point would be beneficial. I'm gonna give that a try and then post more bloodwork results.

My strength in the gym is going up and I've gained all the weight that I have lost during my low T period. Many people have commented that I'm packing on more mass lately. It's exciting to feel like my old self again. Sometimes it's hard to believe that I've come out of all this with a smile on my face. Thank God!!!

 

[hackskii]

For recovery sake, clomid works better than nolva to me.
Running both together work fantastic, as long as the nuts are producing.

 

[BigAk]

Big Ak, I'm glad to see you're sharing again.
First I want to give you the range for your bioavailable...the scale range runs from 110 - 575ng/dl. To give you something to compare to, I was at 128.4 on the fourth week of my last PCT and my total test at that point was 467! My doctor reminds me everytime I see him that bioavailable is all that really matters in real life so, that might explain your good mood etc.

Now, as far as the rest of your stuff goes, here is my unsolicited $0.02.
I think it should be very encouraging to see that your levels have held relatively firm from your first to second blood test; however, I think in light of this knowledge, you should get back on the nolvadex to encourage the levels to climb nearer to your desired levels. Nolvadex will boost your LH and allow test levels to go on the rise again. Once blood work has confirmed that you are within a satisfactory and liveable range, you can taper off the nolva to allow your HPTA to come in for a nice soft landing at its new functional home.

So.. I started some Clomid and Nolvadex about a week and a half ago in an effort to try to bring my total T further upward. Within a few days I started having the typical Clomid sides again (uneasy feeling... emotions... mild anxiety.. etc...) So I said hell with the clomid and I stopped it but resumed with the nolvadex. However, within a few days, my morning wood has disappeared and my morning erections have become shitty. It's like I can get myself horney but I can't maintain a good erection. However, last night I was able to get it up easily with good quality erection. This was a big bummer since I had been doing too well in this department just recently before I started the SERMs again. I stopped the Nolvadex after one week, but it's been two days now and I'm still feeling the same. I think I'm feeling down because of it. I know it will take the Nolvadex good 10 days to get out of my system. What do you guys think I should do at this point???. I want to get back to feeling right again darn it...

 

[wildfox]

Sorry, BigAK, but I am really confused. In August did you see Dr. Crisler for long-term TRT, or short-term HPTA restoration? It just seems you go one route for a while, and are happy with it, but then change directions and try something different?

I am respectfully trying to understand what you have been doing. No offense intended.

 

[BigAk]

Sorry, BigAK, but I am really confused. In August did you see Dr. Crisler for long-term TRT, or short-term HPTA restoration? It just seems you go one route for a while, and are happy with it, but then change directions and try something different?

I am respectfully trying to understand what you have been doing. No offense intended.

oh.. No problem wildfox.. I know it's a long thread and hard to follow the details. Yes.. I went to see Dr. Crisler for a short term HPTA restoration and was able to bring my number up from 77 back in Aug. to 300 two months ago. If you read a few posts back, you'll see that I've been doing pretty nicely with my recovery. Just a week ago however, although still doing and feeling well in all departments, I decided to hop on the SERMs again in an effort to bump my total T levels back up again. Consequently I lost my erection... lol... I should have followed the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it..." We humans; have to mess with things cause we're never content. I have just stopped the Nolvadex after one week to see if my erection would come back again. I think with the addition of the SERMs again, something went out of wack that caused this.

 

[van-man]

I hate clomid! That shit has caused me more fucking problems than any drug I've taken!
You should've never pick that stuff up again. For some people who can tolerate it, it works fine. But, it seems there is another catagory of people like you and me, that it just takes for a ride. My doc won't even perscribe the stuff. I think clomid was your problem the first time, and I think it is your problem now. And I also think that quickly coming on a big combination dose of SERM's and off just as quick is most definitely causing you problems. You have to keep it smooth and simple. Quit taking so much crap all at once!
My suggestion is to resume the nolvadex at 10 or 20mg Ed and be patient. The nolva is not going to hurt you.
If you wanted to try something else, there is toremifene. But I think nolvadex is a better overall choice.

 

[BigAk]

You're right van-man... It's the clomid messing with my head again. I started feeling better shortly after I stopped it. It should be out of my system within next day or two. As far as the Nolvadex, I have read that some of the side effects are:
For males only

Less common

decreased interest in sexual intercourse; inability to have or keep an erection; loss in sexual ability, desire, drive, or performance.

I recall Chap had low libido due to the Nolvadex and it improved upon stopping it.. Chap, you around?

 

[Recless]

I always have a drop off in libido with all the SERM drugs I have used...That includes clomid, nolva, and raloxifene. I am on nolvadex right now and am experienceing this...No signs of ED but lack of interest...loss of morning wood as well. I have a good feeling though my latest labs will show the nolvadex is working as intended and it will be worth suffering through these sides. It will be worth sticking it out through another run brotha.

 

[van-man]

Well, I'll tell ya guys... for me the way it works is that I start with a high libido at the end of a cycle thanks to the AAS and HCG, then I switch to the SERM only phase of PCT and my libido crashes. Everything still works, but I just don't feel like using it, ya know? Anyway, I've had this period last for two to three weeks before it begins the turnaround. Once the turn around starts, everything starts coming back real quick. However, this last PCT which I just finished this week, I decided to go 8 weeks on the nolva at 20mg Ed before I started the taper; for the taper I did one week of each 10mg, 5mg, and 2.5mg. From week six at 20mg through the end of the taper my libido did nothing but go up! Now that I'm done, I would say that I have a libido that is near 70% of what it is on cycle. Anything more, and I would have problems

I should also say that, I do blood work every 4th week during a PCT beginning with the first one 48hrs after my last HCG injection. At no point during this whole PCT have my blood tests turned in a sub 400ng/dl on total testosterone. But, charting the measurments shows that my total E did not return by down to normal range until some time in week 6. I say this because, my doc has told me time and time again that estradiol only has a 6hr half life, but despite that fact, it takes forever to get total E back down!

My theory is that when I guys stalls, his relative E gets stuck higher than his relative T. What I mean by relative is that even though the are both present in the body in very different amounts, there is still a operational range for them to be in. When a guy is trying to restart, initially that boost in T will also boost E and make the body want to crash again since E is already probably too high. So, you have to ride through it on the SERM's (low libido and all), and do everything you can to help lower E naturally(no soy, alcohol, etc.) so that you can sustainably flip the scale and get the relative T back on top of the relative E. AI's won't work here because they only treat the symptom of high E. If you rely on an AI you will just crash again once you come off the AI since you haven't treated the root of the problem.

I don't know if that helps too much, but that is the recovery process as I have observed it.

 

[ccrtx7]

Big AK and guys ( and you Van,

Just wanted to let you know, Ak, you are not alone on this one. I am currently on Nolva 25mg ED, and have been for a week and a half. I did a long aas cylce a while back, never recovered properly, and am attemting to get my HPTA back online properly.

Last week was amazing. My balls were fuller than I remember maybe ever. Erections prob 4-5 out of 7 mornings ( I never got morning wood really anyways). I def felt the low libido, but when my gf wanted it and it was gametime, felt like my old self again. I was def having high hopes about recovering and getting my old self back. ( I felt very strong in the gym too)

Yesterday at work I had a semi crash again. Head was blurry, I was worried, penis and balls tightened up, etc etc. I did not go work out last night either. Today I called into work and have felt SHITTY all day. I HATE THIS FUCKING FEELING. Anyway, I called a DR off the tuneupyourT.com page, and asked all the appropriate questions and am getting blodwork done on Fri. The visit and the bloodwork are LONG overdue anyway, but this shitty feeling just sped up my will to call the DR

Van, are these up and down feeling to be expected?? Man I was feeling so damn good and then BAM!!!!! I want this Nolva to work and I am gonna ride it out, but not if it is hopeless. Hopefully the bloodwork will give some much needed answers to some questions. AK hang in there. Keep this thread going cause I want to keep the insight going, and I will post my results here asap.

 

[BigAk]

AI's won't work here because they only treat the symptom of high E. If you rely on an AI you will just crash again once you come off the AI since you haven't treated the root of the problem..

According to Dr. John Crisler Arimidex will work on reducing all Estrogens totally. Here's a thread I posted where he's been lately. ----> http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/56246-does-arimidex-decrease.html

However, in that same thread (if you keep reading), you'll find that Dr. John believes that the Total Estrogen Assay is not valid for males. He didn't even order it for me. But, he always ordered E2. He claims that 95% of the guys (including the normal healthy ones) he tested came back with high levels of total Estrogen which in his opinion made it invalid.

My gut feeling however, tells me differently. I feel like the ratio of total T to total E plays a major role in recovery.

That said, when my test levels were at 77 back in Aug, my total Estrogen was 116 on a scale of 115 being the highest. Now that my Total T have climbed up to 300 and remained this way with no SERMs, I have no idea what my total E is but I'm very curious. Note that my E2 is at 7 which is on the low end. But, despite that, I was feeling great since my shbg was going down from (48 to 28) yeilding more bioavailable T and E2.

In my case, I'm very hesitant to take Arimidex to try to knock down my total E fearing that my already low E2 would vanish; causing me bad issues. Any input on that??...

 

[BigAk]

AK hang in there. Keep this thread going cause I want to keep the insight going, and I will post my results here asap.

Thank you ccrtx... I hope you feel better soon man.. and keep us posted with your results.

 

[van-man]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with regard to the AI's.
Yes Arimidex [AI's] will lower total estrogen; but, we are not going to stay on arimidex. We are trying to recover, not stay on some form of HRT.

Look, if estrogen is high, something is making it high. If you take arimidex or some other AI, you can lower estrogen. But high estrogen is not all we need to remedy. Estrogen is high because of something else, not just because it decides to be. In this way estrogen is just a symptom of something underlying. We need to stop what is making estrogen high. If you do not do this and choose to take an AI like Arimidex, estrogen will rebound right back up once you come off the arimidex. And, to compound things, the hypothalamus will have developed a hypersensitivity condition due to the lack of estrogen signal, and cause another HPTA stall, again. To avoid this you will have to stay on arimidex indefinitely, and that puts you right back where you started.
That is why I say, "AI's won't work here because they only treat the symptom of high E. If you rely on an AI you will just crash again once you come off the AI since you haven't treated the root of the problem."

As far as Crisler's opinion that total estrogen is a useless lab report... whatever! He offers no insight as to why he considers it irrelevant so, unless I am willing to unquestionably appeal to his HRT authority, which I am not, then I consider that to be just one man's opinion.
I promise you that no matter what type of estrogen the hypothalamus is sensing, it will order the shut down of LH production if the levels are too high.