My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT

Could be a number of things.
But I bet every day will be better and better.

I know what you mean about lying there being scared that you may or may not be able to perform.
But doing this to yourself will make your fears worse and that in itself can sabatoge things.

i think if you can get an erection and have an ejaculation then 77 test level sounds wrong to me.
 
hackskii said:
Could be a number of things.
But I bet every day will be better and better.

I know what you mean about lying there being scared that you may or may not be able to perform.
But doing this to yourself will make your fears worse and that in itself can sabatoge things.

i think if you can get an erection and have an ejaculation then 77 test level sounds wrong to me.
My hope is that my body is trying hard to recover and get back to normal.
 
I have to respectfully disagree, hack, but I think it is entirely possible to have sexual function with a test level of 77, I know I read a study a while back that showed that very little testosterone is required for sexual function if the other hormones are not out of balance.

AK, I wouldn't get so worried about your test results, nobody said recovery had to be an overnight thing... so you tested at 77 the other day and were feeling pretty good that day, that should tell you something... perhaps if you just stay the course in a month you might test out at 100, in 2 or 3 months maybe 200... and so on... there are many many anecdotes of people getting recovered just on time alone, I personally think with the help of serms and some patience along the way that you can get better and live a much better life than when you had to deal with all the injections all the time,

remember that eunuchs with almost no testosterone often outlived us testicled ones.... my point being don't worry too much about the test results, if all other indications indicate health..... we've all heard so many of the stories like "my tests came back and I was at 200, so my doc put me on test and hcg and arimidex and now I am all messed up and can't get an erection when I want... should I try cialis... blah blah etc. etc.."
 
Last edited:
chap said:
AK, I wouldn't get so worried about your test results, nobody said recovery had to be an overnight thing... so you tested at 77 the other day and were feeling pretty good that day, that should tell you something... perhaps if you just stay the course in a month you might test out at 100, in 2 or 3 months maybe 200... and so on... there are many many anecdotes of people getting recovered just on time alone, I personally think with the help of serms and some patience along the way that you can get better and live a much better life than when you had to deal with all the injections all the time,

remember that eunuchs with almost no testosterone often outlived us testicled ones.... my point being don't worry too much about the test results, if all other indications indicate health..... we've all heard so many of the stories like "my tests came back and I was at 200, so my doc put me on test and hcg and arimidex and now I am all messed up and can't get an erection when I want... should I try cialis... blah blah etc. etc.."
This is an encouraging post to me.... See; this goes along with my hopes that my body is trying hard to reach equilibrium on its own regardless of the serms..... But, if the serms can speed the process, that would be a good thing.
 
When I walked into the doctors office with a test level of 67 first question when he was looking at my file was can you get an erection.
I looked at him puzzled as I really didnt know where my levels were at and he had them there. I was like I think so.
He said are you sure you can get an erection, I said I dont know I really dont think about sex.

Looking back, I didnt have any morning wood and sex drive was almost completely gone to the point I didnt even remember.


So big, if you are getting some morning wood and can have sex, I bet your test levels are higher than 77.
But keep us posted on Dr. John ok?
 
BigAk said:
This is an encouraging post to me.... See; this goes along with my hopes that my body is trying hard to reach equilibrium on its own regardless of the serms..... But, if the serms can speed the process, that would be a good thing.
You took Arimidex and laid down and fell a sleep woke up feeling better. Next morning has sex your E2 must have been high.
 
I have found some studies showing the effectiveness of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen citrate. Some of these studies I found on this board. I hope this will help.



Study 1
Studies showing the effectiveness of Clomid

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.

Winters SJ, Troen P.

To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.


J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63

Study 2

The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.

Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.

Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.


Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22

Study 3

1: Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
Related Articles, Links


Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.


Study 4

One recent case report involved the reversal of a hypogonadal state in a man who'd previously used nandrolone decanoate, stanozolol, and methenolone for several months. The man complained of common hypogonadal symptoms ( i.e., loss of libido, fatigue, depression, etc.) and upon investigation his total and free Testosterone levels were 71 ng/dl and 29 pg/ml respectively. (The reference ranges were 260-1000 ng/dl and 34-194 pg/ml, by the way.)

He was then given 100 mg of clomiphene for 5 days and reevaluated 2 weeks later. He reported an improvement in mood, energy, and libido and his total Testosterone was 828 ng/dl. However, after a follow up 2 months later, his symptoms had returned and his total Testosterone concentration was 301 ng/dl. In other words, he suffered a relapse.

They then gave the man 100 mg per day for 2 months and then reevaluated his blood work. They found his total Testosterone was 705 ng/dl and no relapse occurred in subsequent blood work. A similar case reported restoration of the HPTA using the same dosage of clomiphene over a 5 month period.


Study 5

Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.

Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4

Study 6

Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the

Study 7

Affiliation
Department of Urology, Faculty of Medicine, Istanbul University, Istanbul, Turkey.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To identify a subgroup of men who may benefit from tamoxifen citrate (a widely prescribed drug for male infertility) among those with normogonadotrophic and hypergonadotrophic oligozoospermia, either idiopathic or after varicocelectomy. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The study included infertile men with oligozoospermia, 136 referred to our outpatient clinic and 84 infertile after varicocelectomy. All patients received tamoxifen citrate (10 mg twice daily); semen analysis and hormone tests were repeated at the end of 3 and 6 months of treatment, the values being compared with those before treatment. RESULTS : The levels of follicle-stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone and testosterone increased in all groups receiving tamoxifen citrate. Normogonadotrophic patients had a significant increase in sperm count and concentration, while the slight increase detected in the hypergonadotrophic group was statistically insignificant. CONCLUSION: In patients with normogonadotrophic oligozoospermia, tamoxifen citrate may be offered as a practical and economic alternative before using any assisted reproduction techniques. However, double-blind placebo-controlled trials are needed to confirm the findings of this preliminary study.
"

"Study on benefit of tamox-again pay attention to duration. Also notice levels were checked at 2wks-12wks, but it is not specified when increased levels of FSH, LH, and T were seen at maximized effect. Levels of T and FSH are only significant, with T at miniscuel proportions

Fertil Steril. 1983 May;39(5):700-3. Related Articles, Links

Study 8

Increased sperm count in 25 cases of idiopathic normogonadotropic oligospermia following treatment with tamoxifen.

Buvat J, Ardaens K, Lemaire A, Gauthier A, Gasnault JP, Buvat-Herbaut M.

Twenty-five subfertile men, all presenting with idiopathic normogonadotropic oligospermia, were treated with tamoxifen (20 mg/day) for 4 to 12 months. Semen analysis was performed twice before treatment and at least twice after 3 to 12 months of treatment. In 14 patients, serum luteinizing hormone (LH), serum follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), and plasma testosterone (T) were assayed before treatment, then again after 2 weeks and 12 weeks of treatment. Semen volume, sperm motility, and sperm morphologic characteristics were not modified by tamoxifen. Conversely, a twofold increase of both the mean sperm concentration and the mean total sperm count per ejaculate was observed during treatment (P less than 0.001). Mean values of T, LH, and FSH increased during treatment, but the difference was only significant for T (P less than 0.001) and FSH (P less than 0.05). Ten pregnancies (40% of cases) were reported during the 161 months of treatment.

Study 9


This observational study documents the treatment protocol of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen in returning hormonal function to normal post AAS usage. Design: Five HIV-negative males age 27-49, weighing 77-100 kg, with serum total testosterone levels below 240 ng/dL and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels below 1.5 mIU/mL were considered for this observational study. All five patients were administered the treatment protocol.

Quote:
Treatment consisted of combination therapy which included concurrent administration of (a) Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, (b) Clomiphene Citrate and (c) Tamoxifen Citrate for a standard duration of 45 days. This protocol was repeated with every patient until serum LH and total testosterone values reached normal ranges... All five patients were considered eugonadal by normal laboratory reference ranges by the conclusion of treatment. Average serum total testosterone rose from 98.2 to 692.8 ng/dL (p<.001) while the average serum LH rose from an average undetectable value of less than 1.0 to 7.92 mIU/mL (p<.0008).


Quote:
Conclusions: Although the treatment protocol of HCG, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen proved beneficial in reversing AAS induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, future controlled studies need to be performed to confirm the beneficial effects of this combined pharmacotherapy in returning HPGA functioning to normal.


Study 10

William Llewellyn and the study referenced was 1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7)

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH


But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
 
pmgamer18 said:
You took Arimidex and laid down and fell a sleep woke up feeling better. Next morning has sex your E2 must have been high.
Actually not the E2 Phil.. It turned out that my Total E was the one that was high I think.. I just got the blood results from Last Thursday.... and I am very puzzled at a few things. Here they are.

I'll start with Estrogen... Bare in mind these results were prior to starting Arimidex...

Estradiol <15 (normal is <54)
Estrogen 116 (40-115) -----> Do you guys think it's too high??

Total T 68 (241-827) -----> This has dropped since Monday from 77 (very discouraging!!!)
Free T 1.0 (8.7-25.1) -----> This has gone up two points actually from 0.8 on Monday.

LH 0.5 ----> same as Monday
FSH <0.3 ----> which is less than of Monday at 0.3

Everything else is in normal ranges including lipids etc...

I am discouraged that my total T is even lower... However, I am puzzled as to why the free T has gone up a bit.. from 0.8 to 1.0... It's not much ... but I don't understand it.

After I took this blood work on Thursday, I started taking Arimidex. Do you guys think Arimidex would lower my total estrogen?? or does it only work at preventing whatever testosterone I have convert to estrogen?? I'm just trying to understand the mechanics here... Do you guys think it was a wise decision that I started Arimidex?? and do you think it played a role in making me function better sex-wise??

Do you guys think that if my estrogen is too high, it will sabotage my recovery and prevent the feedback process??... therefore, yielding little LH ??

I can't wait till tomorrow...
 
BigAk said:
Actually not the E2 Phil.. It turned out that my Total E was the one that was high I think.. I just got the blood results from Last Thursday.... and I am very puzzled at a few things. Here they are.

I'll start with Estrogen... Bare in mind these results were prior to starting Arimidex...

Estradiol <15 (normal is <54)
Estrogen 116 (40-115) -----> Do you guys think it's too high??

Total T 68 (241-827) -----> This has dropped since Monday from 77 (very discouraging!!!)
Free T 1.0 (8.7-25.1) -----> This has gone up two points actually from 0.8 on Monday.

LH 0.5 ----> same as Monday
FSH <0.3 ----> which is less than of Monday at 0.3

Everything else is in normal ranges including lipids etc...

I am discouraged that my total T is even lower... However, I am puzzled as to why the free T has gone up a bit.. from 0.8 to 1.0... It's not much ... but I don't understand it.

After I took this blood work on Thursday, I started taking Arimidex. Do you guys think Arimidex would lower my total estrogen?? or does it only work at preventing whatever testosterone I have convert to estrogen?? I'm just trying to understand the mechanics here... Do you guys think it was a wise decision that I started Arimidex?? and do you think it played a role in making me function better sex-wise??

Do you guys think that if my estrogen is too high, it will sabotage my recovery and prevent the feedback process??... therefore, yielding little LH ??

I can't wait till tomorrow...

Results are mixed on using arimidex to lower total E's. Some have reported success. Others, including myself, have not had a good result.
 
Yes for me Arimidex dose lower my Total E's but yours was not a Total E test or was it. That is no to high most are good estrogens when it goes a lot higher then it's a problem. Don't take anymore Arimidex your E2 is less then15 I am shocked you got it up this low I can't taking a pill.
 
pmgamer18 said:
Yes for me Arimidex dose lower my Total E's but yours was not a Total E test or was it. That is no to high most are good estrogens when it goes a lot higher then it's a problem. Don't take anymore Arimidex your E2 is less then15 I am shocked you got it up this low I can't taking a pill.
yeah... I have quit taking everything now... I didn't even take the xanax today...

I felt pretty good today actually... Maybe I got too excited that I had sex this morning... dunno... I can't wait till tomorrow... I am nervous actually.. My biggest fear is that Dr. Crisler would tell me I have no hope of recovery and my only avenue is TRT. Phil... you know him better than most... do you think he would try to talk me into TRT for life?? or would he be open to recovering my hpta?
 
BigAk said:
yeah... I have quit taking everything now... I didn't even take the xanax today...

I felt pretty good today actually... Maybe I got too excited that I had sex this morning... dunno... I can't wait till tomorrow... I am nervous actually.. My biggest fear is that Dr. Crisler would tell me I have no hope of recovery and my only avenue is TRT. Phil... you know him better than most... do you think he would try to talk me into TRT for life?? or would he be open to recovering my hpta?
No I don't know him all that well just from the Web. But from what I see from his men he treats he is a dam good Dr. on this. I don't think he would tell you you need to be on TRT unless you needed to be on it and you can't get jump started. Good Luck today and let us know how it went. If what you will have to say you don't what to post then PM me.
 
Well, they will rule out one thing at a time.
They will probably run a catscan on your pituitary to make sure there is no tumor, then do a series ot tests to determine if you are primary, secondary.
He like most TRT docs will sit you down and have a long talk with you for probably an hour.
He will ask you tons of questions and this usually will make a determination along with blood work.
The big picture will be known.
Dr John is super smart in his field.
I am sure you are in the very best of hands.

When it is all said and done you should be just fine.
 
I'm sitting in my hotel room relaxing after a long and productive day making it to see the best of the best doctors in this field.... Dr. Crisler

All I can say is WOW!! My trip was worth every penny spent... I'm excited ... but I'm also pretty tired from my trip.... I will hit the sack now... and will write more tomorrow.

Can you see the smile on my face!!!!... :)
 
hackskii said:
Wow, you are already there?

That was fast.

Keep us posted.
When do you see him?
I have already visited with Dr. Crisler yesterday.. I'm currently waiting for my flight to come back home.

Dr. Crisler was very knowledgable, humorous, supportive, and encouraging. I am so blessed to be able to meet with him one on one. He spent over an hour with me, analyzing my case and assessing my bloodwork and doing general physical examination on me. Afterwards, he developed a specific plan tailored to my needs and prescribed the proper meds. We will be doing bloodwork along the line and will tackle my recovery from every angle till we get it right. I am really excited about it.

Although I will start my plan tomorrow, I am not going to post a day by day update. However, I will update periodically with bloodwork results

Gotta go.. my taxi is here...
 
Are you going for recovery or are you going on TRT for life?

I know you are probably on a plane right now flying.

I am very curious to know what he said, or is going to do.
 
hackskii said:
Are you going for recovery or are you going on TRT for life?

I know you are probably on a plane right now flying.

I am very curious to know what he said, or is going to do.
No.. We're working on restoring my hpta... We're going to tackle it from every angle while doing bloodwork periodically. Dr. Crisler feels very optimistic that we'll succeed; so do I. I am starting his outlined protocol today. I will keep updating on here frequently.

All I can say now is that I feel very good about our plans.. I will take it one day at a' time.
 
BigAk said:
No.. We're working on restoring my hpta... We're going to tackle it from every angle while doing bloodwork periodically. Dr. Crisler feels very optimistic that we'll succeed; so do I. I am starting his outlined protocol today. I will keep updating on here frequently.

All I can say now is that I feel very good about our plans.. I will take it one day at a' time.

Would you mind sharing his approach to your recovery?

If you dont want this public can you PM me on this please?

I am very interested in his approach due to his optomism.
 
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