MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT
- Thread starter BigAk
- Start date
here are some snippets, I am still looking:
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
(I need to give credit that the above snippet was from an article by William Llewellyn and the study referenced was 1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7)
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
(I need to give credit that the above snippet was from an article by William Llewellyn and the study referenced was 1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7)
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Just remember, you have your whole life ahead of you, no need to panic and expect overnight results, if you are feeling ok then you are already better off then when you had to inject yourself on hrt. I would give it some time, the nolvadex only idea sounds like a good one,
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
BigAk:
I have a hard time believing that your medications are fake. I know that there are fakes are out there, but it seems highly unlikely that a decently established supplement website carries them. I'm not claiming to understand what is going on with your hormone levels; I'm also not claiming that I have any medical background whatsoever. I will say that this protocol should run 45 days for a reason. If your levels were meant to be normal at day 30, then the protocol would last for 30 days. I'll be following this closely, and I truly wish you the best of luck.
I have a hard time believing that your medications are fake. I know that there are fakes are out there, but it seems highly unlikely that a decently established supplement website carries them. I'm not claiming to understand what is going on with your hormone levels; I'm also not claiming that I have any medical background whatsoever. I will say that this protocol should run 45 days for a reason. If your levels were meant to be normal at day 30, then the protocol would last for 30 days. I'll be following this closely, and I truly wish you the best of luck.
another thing I was just considering, is that my initial clomid dose was much higher than yours, at 300mg a day, and tapered down to zero quickly by the 10 day mark, with nolvadex throughout and continuing
perhaps with your protocal of a lower clomid dose (which would not have been as stimulatory), means that the nolvadex stimulation will take longer to reach its peak (which is a known effect of nolvadex, a slower gradual increase in LH)
perhaps with your protocal of a lower clomid dose (which would not have been as stimulatory), means that the nolvadex stimulation will take longer to reach its peak (which is a known effect of nolvadex, a slower gradual increase in LH)
You bring up a good point bigcat... I was going to be done with clomid tomorrow anyway.. I think I'll just cut it short and resume with the Nolvadex following chap's advise. This seems like the plan of action. Clinically I feel just fine. I am not going to panic... I will let my body fight this and we will win... God willing.bigcat10 said:
I got your PM I feel you need to stay the course here is why.
1. You just got over a bad cold and had a fever.
2. The Clomid you have may not be any good did you feel any of the sides that it has.
3. You just had morning wood with levels like this you would not see wood.
4. You very worried about this and if you were real stressed at the blood test this will drive your levels off.
5. Your just feeling to dam good don't let your mind sabotages your progress.
6. Your mind is a strong organ it can make you feel good or if you let it it will drag you down.
7. You have nothing to lose by staying the course your labs don't show how good your doing can it be lab error it does happen and a lot.
8. Staying the course will not make you sicker if it dose not work, and you can be fireing on 8 pistons one day and not on the next. I say this because you have good days and bad ones. And it looks like the good days are more lately then the bad ones.
9.You started something now finish it and drive them negative thoughts out of your head when they come in. Tell your self this is distressing but not dangerous and drive the bad thoughts out of you head.
1. You just got over a bad cold and had a fever.
2. The Clomid you have may not be any good did you feel any of the sides that it has.
3. You just had morning wood with levels like this you would not see wood.
4. You very worried about this and if you were real stressed at the blood test this will drive your levels off.
5. Your just feeling to dam good don't let your mind sabotages your progress.
6. Your mind is a strong organ it can make you feel good or if you let it it will drag you down.
7. You have nothing to lose by staying the course your labs don't show how good your doing can it be lab error it does happen and a lot.
8. Staying the course will not make you sicker if it dose not work, and you can be fireing on 8 pistons one day and not on the next. I say this because you have good days and bad ones. And it looks like the good days are more lately then the bad ones.
9.You started something now finish it and drive them negative thoughts out of your head when they come in. Tell your self this is distressing but not dangerous and drive the bad thoughts out of you head.
Phil... Thank you for your quick response and help. You bring up excellent facts.pmgamer18 said:
Here's what I have done since yesterday. I decided to do another blood work in order to measure my Estradiol and total estrogen. I went this morning and met my GP. I mentioned everything to her and she was very receptive. She did a complete physical on me and had bloodwork done to measure everything. However, she had to refer me to an endocrinologist since my case is out of her expertise. That was fine by me.. At least I got my blood drawn and I'm taking steps to resolve this.
After my bloodwork I went back home hounded by the thought that my levels are too low. I have not felt good since yesterday and my appetite was gone. Since I am suspecting that the clomid is fake, I have decided to end this failing attempt and took 250iu's of HCG to bring my levels up. I also took half a tab of Arimidex since I'm suspecting that my estrogen is too high. I hope I have not messed up by reverting back to the hcg.. My thinking is that I can bring my levels up in the mean time while I'm waiting to see the endocrinologist. Then I am going to obtain real pharmaceutical Clomid and try my recovery again. Do you think I messed up here??
I have been feeling bad since yesterday... I have no appetite... feeling very sorry for myself... I have not slept well last night. I crashed around 10:30 but woke up at 4. But, I can't say that my energy level is down.. I'm up and going and decided to head to the office actually.
Shall I keep doing the HCG until I see the new doctor?? or shall I just leave everything alone and wait for my appointment?? I guess I am freaking out about the fact that my test level is 77 and my LH is nill.
Do you think I should stay away from the hcg and take Arimidex in order to insure that my estrogen is down and hope that my body recovers itself naturally regardless of the clomid and nolvadex??
Too many scenarios run through my head... and I don't know what to do.
Also Phil...
As far as the sides from the clomid, I have not experienced any visual effects or any of the crazy sides people talk about.... and that's at 100mg/day. That's another reason I'm thinking that the liquid clomid is fake. That's another reason I have decided to revert to hcg until I get my hands on real clomid and try again.
As far as the labs having errors, I am doubting this because all of the values of LH, FSH, total t and free t correspond in parallel. They couldn't have made errors with all values... Am I right?
If I'm not feeling too bad, how dangerous is it that my test is 77?? Freaking out about this made me revert back to the HCG not knowing if it's a smart move...
As far as the sides from the clomid, I have not experienced any visual effects or any of the crazy sides people talk about.... and that's at 100mg/day. That's another reason I'm thinking that the liquid clomid is fake. That's another reason I have decided to revert to hcg until I get my hands on real clomid and try again.
As far as the labs having errors, I am doubting this because all of the values of LH, FSH, total t and free t correspond in parallel. They couldn't have made errors with all values... Am I right?
If I'm not feeling too bad, how dangerous is it that my test is 77?? Freaking out about this made me revert back to the HCG not knowing if it's a smart move...
I dont think test levels of 77 would be a good thing to have around for long periods of time, HDLs would drop, muscle mass will be less, fat gain will be higher, osteoporosis would be an issue, ED, no energy, brain fog, depression, your skin would get so dry you would have rashes.
I am not saying this is what will happen but could.
As far as the HCG is concerned, I cant say either way, are the nuts any smaller?
You are quite impulsive; I am very much like this myself, moreso when I have had a few drinks.
With as much HCG as you were taking if the serms were bad then you would have a big chance of gyno.
i took a 1000iu shot of HCG and the very next day I had something that felt like a splinter on my nipple.
Took a proviron and some nolva and it went away.
I am not saying this is what will happen but could.
As far as the HCG is concerned, I cant say either way, are the nuts any smaller?
You are quite impulsive; I am very much like this myself, moreso when I have had a few drinks.
With as much HCG as you were taking if the serms were bad then you would have a big chance of gyno.
i took a 1000iu shot of HCG and the very next day I had something that felt like a splinter on my nipple.
Took a proviron and some nolva and it went away.
Yes your right a level of 77 can be a problem but not that fast and he has morning wood I feel if the lab messed up on the blood be it stroage, handing, shiping or wrong viles that the blood was put into. I have had this happen so many times that I stopped using Quest they suck. My Dr. went over all the things that can go wrong and there are a lot.
I would stop the HCG and doin't do the Arimidex I don't have to tell you what I think about seeing an Endo they are just not good Dr.'s for this. If you can't stop your mind from making you worry about this your going to fail. I know because I have the same problem and it's not easy to do but your not feeling anything like someone with a level of 77 go back to the day before your test read back. You were doing fine. I never make any changes from one test I do it 4 weeks later and then push the panic button. Dam man you have nothing to lose to go a little longer. Get the good Clomid and see if this makes you feel different. You have come this far why let this upset you.
I would stop the HCG and doin't do the Arimidex I don't have to tell you what I think about seeing an Endo they are just not good Dr.'s for this. If you can't stop your mind from making you worry about this your going to fail. I know because I have the same problem and it's not easy to do but your not feeling anything like someone with a level of 77 go back to the day before your test read back. You were doing fine. I never make any changes from one test I do it 4 weeks later and then push the panic button. Dam man you have nothing to lose to go a little longer. Get the good Clomid and see if this makes you feel different. You have come this far why let this upset you.
hackskii said:
I got my levels checked once and I had a test of 66
I actually didnt feel all that bad, just never thought about sex nor really had any desire.
But all in all I felt ok.
I actually didnt feel all that bad, just never thought about sex nor really had any desire.
But all in all I felt ok.
You know what they say "If it ant broke don't fix it" if you feel good stay away from the Dr.hackskii said:I got my levels checked once and I had a test of 66
I actually didnt feel all that bad, just never thought about sex nor really had any desire.
But all in all I felt ok.
Do you feel Big needs to give it 4 more weeks.
theiceman13
New Member
I agree with Phil, I don't see how you could get morning wood with your levels at 77, I think it was a good idea to get bloodwork done, and definetly a smart move to check your estrogen.
Won't the clomid and nolva give false positives on estrogen?
I have just got off the phone with Dr. Crisler's secretary. I have scheduled an appointment to see him this coming Tuesday at 2:30.. I have also booked my plain ticket.
I feel better already just knowing that I'll be under medical supervision instead of sitting here doing guess work and relying on underground liquid products. I am giving this 200% of my effort and God willing I will recover and be fine at the near end.
In the mean time, I am NOT going to go back on hcg. I will keep taking the liquid stuff just because it's here.
How do you guys like this plan??
I feel better already just knowing that I'll be under medical supervision instead of sitting here doing guess work and relying on underground liquid products. I am giving this 200% of my effort and God willing I will recover and be fine at the near end.
In the mean time, I am NOT going to go back on hcg. I will keep taking the liquid stuff just because it's here.
How do you guys like this plan??
Matt Muscle
New Member
I think for something as important as this you must know that your medications are 100% ligitimate.... for the exact reasons you are experiencing. Its just another uncertainty that you can do without.BigAk said:
If you can get medical supervision that is sympathetic to what you are doing, then that is leaps and bounds ahead of trying to self treat.
There you are when you see him tell him we said HI. If your going to do any E2 or E testing you need to come off the clomid do a search on this SWALE posted about this some time ago. I think he will spend about 2 to 3 hrs with you and order tests to have done when you get back. I hope now you will sleep good to night.BigAk said:
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