My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT

[BigAk]

Thank you for sharing your story and experiences with us hackskii... It makes me feel better to see that I'm not the only one here.. I am also glad that you were able to recover and overcome this burden. It only inspires me to hear of success stories like yours.

I'm the same way... I thought that the TRT would solve my problems and I thought that I had tapped into a gold mind in the beginning... only to realize a year later that I'm facing regular unpleasant issues. Since I quit the TEST and got on a recovery protocol, I've been feeling better already... No more panic attacks.... no more high blood pressure.... no more moodiness... etc...

Those panic attacks were no fun at all.... It got to the point that a small cup of coffee would invoke an attack...

 

[BigAk]

Day 10:

Before I report on day 10, I want to document that yesterday evening (day 9) my libido kicked in out of no-where. That happened shortly post my 750iu's of HCG. Erection was very good and energy was up.

Today... Got too busy at work to scratch my butt; let alone thinking about PCT.. No depression but I have not been feeling extraordinarily happy either. Although my best buddy made me laugh hard during lunch.

My workout was good and energetic. However, my strength is a bit down. I have lost alot of the intensity I had while on a cycle. But, it's a good thing. I'm getting back to normal. I recall not long ago my intensity at the gym was overwhelming that I'd be on the verge of a panic attack. My heart would race and would sweat simply from walking. That explains why my blood pressure was up most of the time. My workouts lately remind me that I am human.. which is a good thing IMO. I miss my old self...

Didn't have a chance to realize any libido urges. Although, it was very refreshing to see my wife again after her trip the past few days with my son.

Today... I am feeling content and calm... The pop quiz feeling has disappeared since my realization that my testes are responding well to the HCG treatment. I predict however for that "pop quiz" feeling to come back again once I step into milestone two; stopping HCG totally and waiting to see what the clomid/nolva have up their sleeves for me.

I'm getting ready to take my shot of HCG and clomid... Goodnight!!

 

[eeso]

Hi eeso... You can't find Scally's protocol directly. I had to search and read many threads before I found it on another board.... Apparently, there are more than a few guys following it. I have posted the protocol in the begining of my journal thread.. Look at day 1.

It's funny how often I've been running into similar statements like your about not feeling as good while on TRT.... I thought I was the only one. Can you share with us what prompted you to give up TRT and seek recovery?

Well I'm only 23 for starters. I suspect my low test was a result of depression from a bad breakup a few years back. I was really down for a year or so. It's only now that I realise thats a possibility though. TRT causes more problems than it solves. As soon as u get one thing right, it throws 6 other things out of balance. Pretty soon I was on half a dozen drugs and things still weren't right. I was losing my hair, my dick was totally unpredictable, and now my private health insurance has stopped subsidising the test too.

My nuts respond extremely well to HCG - they're big and full on 300iu eod now, after being shut down with TRT for 18months. Gotta try and kick things back into action!

I should add that I think in my case at least, my mental state has a huge correlation to how well my dick works and brain fog too. Recently I've discovered a product that when on TRT and also HCG alone, made me feel emotionally very good, lots of energy, good focus, and an awesome dick. It's called "adrenal stress-end". I'm trying to work out whether its the adrenal cortico extracts or the l-tyrosine in it which is helping so much. I think it may be the l-tyrosine, as it may be balancing my brain chems so i feel better. Unless i have low cortisol in which case it would be the cortico extracts helping. In any case, I should soon know as I'm trying l-tyrosine on its own 2morro.

 

[eeso]

I find it interesting that Dr. Scally says to use 100mg clomid and 20mg nolva but he doesn't taper the dose at all? Why is this?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Swale says to not use more than 50mg clomid, and when using clomid and nolva, taping is essential!

I know in studies that 50mg clomid everyday put every subject well over the top of the range of testosterone.

It seems Scally really smashes the system hardcore with his dosings (hcg as well).

I do worry about clomid's side effects, particularly visual distortions that can be permanent. Some people can extremely depressed on it too. I guess i'll just wait and see how i respond.

But dosings aside, the question remains - to taper or not to taper?

 

[BigAk]

I find it interesting that Dr. Scally says to use 100mg clomid and 20mg nolva but he doesn't taper the dose at all? Why is this?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Swale says to not use more than 50mg clomid, and when using clomid and nolva, taping is essential!

I know in studies that 50mg clomid everyday put every subject well over the top of the range of testosterone.

It seems Scally really smashes the system hardcore with his dosings (hcg as well).

I do worry about clomid's side effects, particularly visual distortions that can be permanent. Some people can extremely depressed on it too. I guess i'll just wait and see how i respond.

But dosings aside, the question remains - to taper or not to taper?

Yeah... I have not thought about the tapering aspect of clomid and nolvadex... It may be a good idea though. I guess it won't hurt to add an addional week to the protcol for each of the clomid and nolvadex taper. Let's see how things go when I stop the hcg first though... One milestone at a time here.

As far as the dosages, one can go crazy reading the many different ideas and theories behind that. As for the visual side effect of Clomid, I have not experienced that thank God.... However, although I'm not depressed, I am not feeling my old happy self. I'll be happy when this milestone is successfully over..

eeso... I am glad that you're considering recovering your system. When are you going to start?

 

[BigAk]

I have just gotten this from another board. Someone has posted it for me. I found it very interesting. What do you guys think??


Leydig cell desensitization from HCG has been shown to be blocked/minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by supressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

Modulation of Leydig Cell Androgen Biosynthesis and Cytochrome P-450 Levels during Estrogen Treatment and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin induced Desensitization

The similarity of estrogen dependent lesions to those produced by hCG treatment further indicates the involvement of endogenous estrogen in the development of the microsomal enzymatic lesions in gonadotropin-induced desensitization of testicular androgen production.

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization.

 

[colewave]

Any suggestions on how to modify this PCT to correct for a little gyno along the way?

 

[eeso]

That's very interesting BigAk! Makes me feel better about using high doses of HCG.

I'll probably be starting my recovering within a week.

As for the above question about gyno - why would u be worried about gyno if ur hitting 100mg clomid + 20mg nolva every day?

 

[BigAk]

That's very interesting BigAk! Makes me feel better about using high doses of HCG.

I'll probably be starting my recovering within a week.

As for the above question about gyno - why would u be worried about gyno if ur hitting 100mg clomid + 20mg nolva every day?

Excellent.. I'm glad that you'll be starting next week. I'll be following your progress.

 

[hackskii]

Bump for tomorrow as I have had a few beers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Well, many as it is Sat..........
I will answer tomorrow on the gyno issue.

 

[BigAk]

Day 11:

First, I would like to meniton that today is the exact 4 week aniversary since my last shot of Enth at 200mg. This means that Enth is totally out of my system, and whatever testosterone in my body is my own production via the HCG.

Well... Today has been relatively hard on me.... not sure why!!! But, it started out good this morning. Towards the later part of the afternoon, I got too sleepy and ended up crashing for a two hour nap. After the nap, things didn't spark up much. Libido is the last thing on my mind.... It's nill today. Overall, I spent the whole day feeling down and in my own world. I still managed to be a good father to my son.. We played and my wife and I had great laughs when he tried his new Superman costume at Wall-Mart.

My appetite has not been good today either... It really feels like I'm sick or something.... I really hope that it's the Clomid that's fuking with me and nothing else serious. I mean... I've been on this stuff for straight 11days now at 100mg a day. Do you guys think the clomid is making me feel down??

I have observed that my testes size starts up good during the day, but they kind of get a bit smaller towards the evening. I am thinking that since the half life of HCG is only 8 hours, it gets out of my system towards the evening... Can someone comment on this one perhaps??

I pray tomorrow will be a better and happier day!!!!

 

[chap]

well, on the hcg issue, I experimented alot with it as far as an hrt protocal, and my testicles are able to produce testosterone... I did find out like you that it is really a rollercoaster ride of levels up and down.. I think that is the biggest problem with hcg, the fact that a sustained release would be necessary to feel good on the stuff.. something that is impossible to achieve with hcg injections

I tried twice daily injections,and that was probably the best, but even then it felt like an up and down thing... perhaps a mechanical device similar to an insulin-pump might be an idea that needs to be experimented with for hcg... in the meantime I think that hcg hrt is very limited in usefulness due to that fact

 

[BigAk]

chap... You make perfect sense about the HCG.... What type of dosages were you using during that period?? and what's the highest dosage you've gone up to without noticing any additional benefit?

 

[hackskii]

I find it interesting that Dr. Scally says to use 100mg clomid and 20mg nolva but he doesn't taper the dose at all? Why is this?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Swale says to not use more than 50mg clomid, and when using clomid and nolva, taping is essential!

I know in studies that 50mg clomid everyday put every subject well over the top of the range of testosterone.

It seems Scally really smashes the system hardcore with his dosings (hcg as well).

I do worry about clomid's side effects, particularly visual distortions that can be permanent. Some people can extremely depressed on it too. I guess i'll just wait and see how i respond.

But dosings aside, the question remains - to taper or not to taper?

I think the whole idea of tapering is a good one. I think anytime you stop an anti-estrogen it is a good idea to taper it. Reason being would be something like estrogen rebounding. Stopping them suddenly would be a flood of estrogen on possibly estrogen sensitive receptors.

I dont think you will need to taper the clomid as long as the nolva is in the system. Estrogen rebounding would not be an issue as Nolva is still taken.
Now after the 45 days I did taper my nolva just for the above reasons.
Swale's suggestion was 5 days half dosing the SERM till you get down to 2.5mg on the nolva. I have the liquid nolva too so halfing that will be easy.

 

[hackskii]

I have just gotten this from another board. Someone has posted it for me. I found it very interesting. What do you guys think??


Leydig cell desensitization from HCG has been shown to be blocked/minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by supressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

Modulation of Leydig Cell Androgen Biosynthesis and Cytochrome P-450 Levels during Estrogen Treatment and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin induced Desensitization

The similarity of estrogen dependent lesions to those produced by hCG treatment further indicates the involvement of endogenous estrogen in the development of the microsomal enzymatic lesions in gonadotropin-induced desensitization of testicular androgen production.

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization.

I think Swale suggested around two years ago that estrogen was the driver in leydig cell desentization, this is one reason he suggests smaller doses and an AI with any steroid stack (gear user).

 

[hackskii]

HCG's half life is way longer than 8 hours, I think it is closer to 3 days TBH.
I think someone on this board suggested 17 hours for a test spike, but found it actually quicker than that.

I think you just might be a little sick bro, I myself didnt have any problems with HCG or the other meds.

 

[BigAk]

HCG's half life is way longer than 8 hours, I think it is closer to 3 days TBH.
I think someone on this board suggested 17 hours for a test spike, but found it actually quicker than that.

I think you just might be a little sick bro, I myself didnt have any problems with HCG or the other meds.

Yeah... today is far better than yesterday.. not sure what was up with me yesterday... I may have been a little sick. Upon rise this morning, I have no headache and no depression. I feel a whole lot better.

I am not sure where I got the info about the hcg half life.. I probably miss-read the info I read somewhere... You're right.. I just looked it up again. The half life is 3 +/- 0.5 days.

 

[BigAk]

Day 12:

Today has been alot better than yesterday already.. it's about 1pm and I feel a whole lot better than I felt all day yesterday... I still have no clue why yesterday sucked so badly. Maybe it was all in my head and I talked myself into depression yesterday. I have noticed that I get down whenever I start thinking negatively about the road I'm taking. I really look forward to the day when I don't have to rely on HCG anymore and start using my LH and FSH.

Like chap has said; HCG will cause alot of fluctuations which maybe the cause of some my disturbances in mood. So far, I've been injecting about 500 - 700iu's per day... I will be riding this until Wednesday.

Sometimes, I have been getting headaches. I suspect it's due to the Clomid intake. I will not take Aspirin while on HCG as the two do go together. Do you guys see any harm with taking Tylenol ??

Libido is till very low today. However, I have no trouble inducing it and achieving an adequate erection.

Energy is very up today.... and my appetite is good. It was very bad yesterday; as if I was too nervous to eat.... My appetitie has been generally alot less since I've started my protocol. I have lost 5 pounds in the past few weeks.

 

[chap]

regarding 'half life' of hcg, I think people wrongly assume that due to a half life being talked about, that there is a nice linear effect of the drug while in the body, I dont believe that is anywhere close to the case with hcg.... I just dont believe it is a nice linear time release type effect


when I was experimenting with it I seem to remember I felt best on 150 iu morning and 150 iu night give or take....but 2 shots day everyday gets a little bit of a pain very quickly

 

[eeso]

I've been on HCG only (and indolplex with dim as my estrogen control) for about 6 weeks now.

I find shooting EOD is fine for me. Been doing 300iu EOD. Might even drop it to 250 until I start my recovery protocol. I found if i did E3D shots I'd feel down on the 3rd day.

My nuts are responding great to this dose of hcg. Makes me wonder if i really need the massive doses that scally suggests. I guess I should do it his way though, otherwise I'll just be left wondering, if in the end it doesnt work.