My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT

[Matt Muscle]

My thinking on the subject is a little different. I think while on the hcg you are still suppressing yourself strongly as well as estrogens hanging around in your system. I don' think any real recovery is actually taking place while using hcg, the body will need to come off the hcg and only then will the serms start to work for recovery and you will probably experience a crash for a bit....

I came off the hcg, was on nothing, crashed totally, hit the serms hard and libido and morning wood became ABSOLUTE ZERO... the good thing was that only lasted for about a week or so, and recovery started to come very rapidly.... I feel if I had still played around with hcg that no real recovery would have been achieved while dosing the hcg.

BigAk is in my opinion correct here. If you had not used the hCG before you recovery your outcome may have been quite different, limited by the slow recovery of the testicles.
The amount of gonadatrophins produced by the Pituitary under stimulation by clomiphene and tamoxifen may not be enough to get the testes working in the time that the SERMS are being used.
As I understand, It is the coupling of functional testes and the correct signals of LH and FSH at the right time that restores the HPTA. This is most likely why Scally uses the high dose hCG at the same time as the SERMS.
hCG is supressive of the HPTA when used on its own, but in this case it is restoring quickly one vital part of the axis, the testes.

 

[chap]

chap.... The reason that you've responded to the serms so effectively is due to the fact that your testes have had a good while of actual functionality during your intake of HCG. What good is it if your pituitary produced LH in the presence of totally atrophied testes that will take a long time to wake up into action??? You can produce LH via the serms day in/day out and it will only fall on "deaf" testes. The HCG at certain doses accelerates and jump starts the testes to prepare them to welcome the LH .

I know what you are saying and the fact that it is an often repeated theory, but I strongly don't believe it. If your body starts to produce LH quickly then that LH will do you just as much good as hcg, only the overall accomplishment is much preferable as you are not adding an external suppressive dosing regimen.... Ive read that theory a million times, and I still dont believe it is the way to go.

 

[van-man]

Chap, I think you are right and wrong depending on the timing of the HCG use. What I mean is that HCG is most beneficial when used while inhibitory AAS are still present in the system. When the testes are atrophied due to extended AAS use, HCG can be used to artificially stimulate the testes, whipping them into shape before the last of the AAS is gone. From this point you are very right to declare that the serms are the only things that matter.

BigAK, PCT is scary as fuck, and worrying won't help. You've got a lot of sharp guys with a lot of experience looking out for you, you'll be fine. Quit focusing on your feelings so much. Instead focus on objective things that will keep your mind in a more scientific gear. I measure things like AM wood; recovery time after working a particular muscle group; teste size; amount of time I am able to be up, active, and on point; along with many other useful things. My point is, your horny-ness is of no consequence. There are too many other variables that go into that; daily routine, your wife not making herself attractive enough (I'm married too), etc. This is a one man research project, you'll need to pay attention to things you can use in your next attempt if this one does not provide satisfactory results.

 

[eeso]

I believe using HCG whilst also on Testosterone isn't very effective. I compare it to pushing the accelerator and the brake at the same time.

I followed swale's protocol, and shot 250iu HCG once to twice a week. While I sorta got some feeling from it, it didn't really get my nuts going well.

However, since stopping the Testosterone shots and using HCG only, 250iu EOD, my nuts are way better, in fact everything is way better.

To use an adequate enough amount of HCG to keep the nuts going (in my opinion 250iu EOD), u would be producing enough test yourself that Testosterone shots wouldn't be needed.

 

[BigAk]

Dr. Scally has said the following: (found it on this board)

"I do have a few tips regarding HPTA normalization after AAS cessation:

1. hCG should be used subcutaneous; one may begin the administration before ending AAS use but should only be done after calculating the half-life of the AAS(s) used so as to not deplete the hCG or come up against down regulation of the lutropin receptor;

2. at some point while on the hCG begin the antiestrogen clomiphene citrate at 50 mg po bid (more will be wasteful and increase the risk of troubling side-effects, headaches and ocular pain); tamoxifen can also be added at 20 mg po qd;

3. do not depend upon a clinical response (increased libido, energy. blue-balls, increase in testicle size, etc.) as proof of returned testicular function - NEVER. A serum T should be done and timed to be done just prior to finishing hCG. I will discuss the reason for this at a later time;

4. Only after a sufficient respone in the serum T stop the hCG as planned and continue with the antiestrogens. Towards the completion of these meds and before their gone have a blood test for LH & T, simultaneously.

Decisions after this are individualized and take into consideration the medical history, etc. prior to initiating AAS. one of the best moments in my practice was when a graduate student in Exercise Science received his Masters on work done in my office. The thesis was titled, "The Evaluation Of A Medically Supervised Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Program Effects On Strength, Body Composition, And Blood Levels." None of these individuals suffered from ASIH post AAS cessation.
"

As for number 3, he said he'd discuss the reason at a later time. Do you guys know if he ever did?? Although I know the reasoning behind doing bloodwork, I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth. How come Dr. Scally doesn't come around much anymore anyway???

 

[hackskii]

chap.... The reason that you've responded to the serms so effectively is due to the fact that your testes have had a good while of actual functionality during your intake of HCG. What good is it if your pituitary produced LH in the presence of totally atrophied testes that will take a long time to wake up into action??? You can produce LH via the serms day in/day out and it will only fall on "deaf" testes. The HCG at certain doses accelerates and jump starts the testes to prepare them to welcome the LH in the near upcoming days when the HCG is stopped; and that's what I've been trying to achieve with HCG. The blood work results coming up will reveal if or not my testes have been producing testosterone adequately via the HCG. Before this fact is established, my testes will not be ready to function with the LH, and then more HCG treatment may be required to bring them up to action.

Recovery of the HPTA involves all of the letters in the word. "HPTA" hypothalamus, Pituitary, Testes Axis.. This means that the testes need to be recovered also; and not only the H and P.

Because you had been on the HCG for a long while before you started the Clomid, your testes were ready, able and willing to be invoked via the LH via the serms. For this reason, you're under the impression that the only thing that worked for you were the serms; while in reality HCG had already done its essential job in the entire recovery process.

Great post.
I completely agree with this.
Atrophied nuts wont respond to LH like nuts that have full testicular function.

I remember reading a study where some guys took 250mg of test E for 6 months. In the study it took a couple of weeks to fire up LH but the testicles didnt produce test for over 10 weeks and at very low levels.
So if the pituitary gland can fire up that fast and testicles take that long to respond, HCG seems to be the course of action.
Sure HCG is supressive but only to the hypothalamus and pituitary, not the testicles in fact this has an opposite effect, it is actually recovery.
If that can be brought online quickly and the nuts cant then why all the fuss with worrying about LH if the balls wont respond?
I have used HCG and there is nothing that brings the balls size up faster. HCG is like jumper cables to your balls.
I had very atrophied nuts at the end of my TRT, it was sickening. Within 2 weeks they were 3 times the size that they were.
I seriously doubt that clomid would have this effect within this two week time period.
Cold turkey using nothing, id say months to regain size.


Again great post.

 

[hackskii]

3. do not depend upon a clinical response (increased libido, energy. blue-balls, increase in testicle size, etc.) as proof of returned testicular function - NEVER. A serum T should be done and timed to be done just prior to finishing hCG. I will discuss the reason for this at a later time;

As for number 3, he said he'd discuss the reason at a later time. Do you guys know if he ever did?? Although I know the reasoning behind doing bloodwork, I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth. How come Dr. Scally doesn't come around much anymore anyway???

I think this is because all those indicators have little berring on testicular function and base levels of testosterone.
One might stop the HCG protocol too soon, causing recovery to take longer.

 

[BigAk]

I think this is because all those indicators have little berring on testicular function and base levels of testosterone.
One might stop the HCG protocol too soon, causing recovery to take longer.

Makes sense...

 

[BigAk]

Day 15:

Moment Of Truth

I have just got off the phone with the lady who relayed my bloodwork results to me. I have to say that this is one of the happiest moments I'm feeling right now..

Results:

Total T == 583 on a scale of (241-827)
Free T == 14.6 on a scale of (8.7-25.1)

Now remember; I have been off of external test since June 24 and that was at only 200mg of test enth. That's four weeks and three days since then. This leads me to believe that my testes have been responding to the HCG and been keeping me up. Or else, my levels would have dipped down low after this long out of my last shot. Do you all agree on this ?

No particular update on my condition today... At the moment I have no freaking pop quiz feeling no more. I have a little dull headache from the Clomid cause it came after my I took my dose. Nuts are nice and full... However, I have no libido.... baby steps here... lol

Today is supposed to be my last shot of HCG. I have been taking 500iu's every night for the past week. After that, I plan on dropping the HCG and resuming with the serms.

 

[farmerjohn]

hackskii, what dosage of HCG were you using? Did you also use very high doses like BigAK to get the balls working again?

 

[hackskii]

hackskii, what dosage of HCG were you using? Did you also use very high doses like BigAK to get the balls working again?

Here is what I did:
2500iu HCG EOD x 8 shots
50mg clomid twice a day (100mg total) for 30 days.
20mg nolvadex for 45 days.

Now before I started I was shooting 500iu a day of HCG and taking some Aromasin (AI) and the nolvadex @ 20mg
This did not cut it, sadly I wasnt really recovering here with this.
My nuts were the size of almonds that had been shelled

After talking to Scally, I followed his protocol and within just a few days I was amased.
I started getting morning wood, felt better within a week of doing his protocol than I did the last year.
LIbido was not 100% but hey, you have to start somewhere and it might take some time for the body to re-adjust as I was shutdown for a year or more.

I think time will heal all wounds and the HPTA in my opinion is one of those wounds that will heal in time.

BigAk, that is good news and you have good reason to be happy. Those blood results are proof that you are on the road to recovery.
Libido issues could be something to do with estrogen or a number of issues.

I would take zinc and magnesium before bed too, although Scally said it would not do much of anything but if it made me feel better than do it.
i dream better on zinc and mag myself.
This is a good thing.

Good job BigAk, this should put your mind to ease some right?

 

[BigAk]

Good job BigAk, this should put your mind to ease some right?

hackskii... I was so fuking happy you have no idea!!!! It's probably the best news I got all year. I mean. Not long ago, I was under belief that my testes are beyond repair. Just to see that it's not the case puts a lot of joy in my heart.

I think doing this blood work has been very essential; not only in terms of revealing the truth, but also in terms of encouragement. I was just getting tired of popping all that clomid and feeling shitty about it not knowing where I'm heading. Now, I'm so encouraged, I'm looking forward to resuming my recovery. I'm pressing on; on the road of recovery. Thank God for the good outcome.

 

[hackskii]

I do remember a guy on this board that suggested you would be fine.

Ok, now we know that your nuts are responding to LH.
Next step of the game is firing up the pituitary and hypothalamus.

For me I noticed that when I dropped the clomid down to 50mg about day 20, I took a turn for the worse. I was so fixated on the size of my balls I thought they were getting smaller so day 22 or 23 I went back to 100mg a day.
Scally suggested I drop the clomid to 50 after I talked to him and told him how fantastic I was doing and feeling, so at this point he told me to drop the clomid down.
But again after I got paranoid I went back to the original protocol.

One side I did notice about the clomid (a good side ) was the ejaculation volume. It thins out the discharge but probably doubles or even triples the volume.
I was like WOW, this is what the porn stars do huh?

But now, i think if you can stand the sides I would proceed as planned.
Although I have heard (don't know if this is true) that clomid's sides on the eyes can be perminant.
I have heard of guys getting depressed on clomid.
I myself don't notice any sides from clomid.

I do remember about a couple of weeks after I was done with the protocol I thought I had reduced libido.
Scally suggested I was not a young man anymore (46) and it was probably normal for my age.
But I am an identical twin and he has probably more libido than me.
So, after some deep thought I came to the conclusion that after the PCT was all said and done there would be some re-adjustment period and things would come back to normal.
I didnt take any blood work to suggest anything.

Testosterone comes back naturally very slowly. I remember when my brother was shutdown from a Deca only cycle (never ever do this), he had low test levels for one year.
Panic attacks, depression, anxiety, itchy dry skin, erectal disfunction, no libido, it was awefull.
Poor guy, I never saw him like this before and I was very concerned.
Took a year for his levels to go from 65 to 450 or something like that.
I do think that we have naturally low test levels or lower norm ranges as I find it hard to grown facial hair and building muscle takes forever.
But his test levels probably moved (probably less) maybe 50 points a month.
So, all in all after you are done I bet there will be some readjustments, but time will fix this.


Great news bro.

Scott

 

[theiceman13]

Dr. Scally has said the following: (found it on this board)

"I do have a few tips regarding HPTA normalization after AAS cessation:



As for number 3, he said he'd discuss the reason at a later time. Do you guys know if he ever did?? Although I know the reasoning behind doing bloodwork, I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth. How come Dr. Scally doesn't come around much anymore anyway???

I did some research on the web on Dr. Scally the other night as I am interested in his protocol as well. Unfortunately it seems as though his medical license was revoked in Texas for allegedly using his practice to legally give scripts for juice to BBers. In the cast a 44 year old female said she was on so much that she was sprouting facial hair and had an enlarged clit... lol... anyway I read that he is appealing the decision, I don't know if that information I found was true or not but if it is it probably explains his absence.

 

[hackskii]

I did some research on the web on Dr. Scally the other night as I am interested in his protocol as well. Unfortunately it seems as though his medical license was revoked in Texas for allegedly using his practice to legally give scripts for juice to BBers. In the cast a 44 year old female said she was on so much that she was sprouting facial hair and had an enlarged clit... lol... anyway I read that he is appealing the decision, I don't know if that information I found was true or not but if it is it probably explains his absence.

Well, his license did get suspended but he is appealing it right now and this is where most of his time goes.
He does have a concultation service and it is in his link.

I dont know about that one on the girl though.
I think that he got spanked by the board and what he did (from what I talked to him about) was blown way out of perportion.

His information is good, he has treated thousands of men, he is a good guy.
I have massive respect for him.
He helped me out big time, whether or not he did anything wrong he helped me in a way nobody could.
I owe him big time.
I was so happy with him that I offered him money and he would not take it even though I am sure he could use it.
So, I guess this is the way I can pay him back for the good work he did on me.

Not only that but I have had friends that I gave the protocol to that had good success too.
One older guy did a little cycle of deca and that hammered him bad.
I even told the guy to leave deca alone but he decided he would go ahead.
Well, very small amounts of just 200mg slammed his natural test levels and poor guy was in bad shape.
He started on Scally's protocol on Monday.
I have to get back in touch with him, but I hope he did half as well as me.

So, indirectly Dr Scally has helped many people, he is a good dude in my book.

Scott

 

[eeso]

In that extract from scally, he says to use 50mg clomid and 20mg nolva in the program.

Is that the standard starting program, and u guys just bumped the clomid to 100mg because u weren't responding to the 50mg? I know this is the case for hacksii...

 

[BigAk]

I do remember a guy on this board that suggested you would be fine.

Scott

LOL... Yeah... Doing this would be so hard and too much to handle without the awesome support I've gotten from you guys. I'm thankful for this.

I am going to resume the protocol as usual.. I may not drop my Clomid dosage. The next milestone to cross is getting enough LH and FSH from my pituitary. I'll have to be patient with the sides. Luckily I have not had sides visually. But, I get dull headaches after my intake of Clomid. Last Saturday, I felt sick all day I felt like crying. The emotional aspect is really hard sometimes.

hackskii.. Have you considered supplementing with Tribulus at all now that you're on your own? I can imagine it would be helpful in hyping up the pituitary into producing more LH.... dunno!!!

 

[bigcat10]

I am happy for you BigAk. I have been following this thread carefully. I will be going down this same road sometime soon. For the record, what is Dr. Scally's protocol exactly?

 

[BigAk]

I am happy for you BigAk. I have been following this thread carefully. I will be going down this same road sometime soon. For the record, what is Dr. Scally's protocol exactly?

Thank you bigcat... I am happy that you're considering recovering yourself!! I have posted Dr. Scally in my very first post in this same thread... then hackskii just posted it again a few posts back.... But, here it is again anyway:

Recovery Protocol (Inspired by Dr. Mike Scally):
2500 iu HCG EOD for 8 shots (15 days total)
20mg of Nolvadex for 45 days
50mg of Clomid taken twice daily 12hours apart for a total of 30 days

 

[hackskii]

In that extract from scally, he says to use 50mg clomid and 20mg nolva in the program.

Is that the standard starting program, and u guys just bumped the clomid to 100mg because u weren't responding to the 50mg? I know this is the case for hacksii...

Yah 50mg x 2, (100 total a day). 12 hrs. apart.
I never changed anything.