Natural production threshold

[Skippy the kangaroo]

Hey all,

Curious at what level of daily testosterone release natural production can begin again?

For example, does artificial daily release have to be fully at 0.0 or would the HPTA begin to produce at a low enough level, 5.0 for example.

Is there any research about this out there? What are peoples thoughts?

Much appreciated

 

[WannaBeBIG]

I don't understand your arbitrary 5.0 as something related to the HPTA, but it's a negative feedback loop so any external hormones will suppress the HPTA.

If you want to restart the HPTA let's say after a cycle of AAS your optimum level of external hormones is zero. I think your question pertains to tapering hormones and if that will slowly restart the HPTA at the same time thinking one will raise while the other lowers. I think that depends on how long HPTA was suppressed for.

If your HPTA was suppressed from a single dose of Test your HPTA would slow and recover rather quickly, but if you ran a cycle for let's say 12 weeks, you need a proper PCT just to aid the HPTA in recovering since naturally it may take months to recover natural production. Hell, even with a dialed in PCT there are no certainties that your natural production will ever recover fully.

 

[Skippy the kangaroo]

I don't understand your arbitrary 5.0 as something related to the HPTA, but it's a negative feedback loop so any external hormones will suppress the HPTA.

If you want to restart the HPTA let's say after a cycle of AAS your optimum level of external hormones is zero. I think your question pertains to tapering hormones and if that will slowly restart the HPTA at the same time thinking one will raise while the other lowers. I think that depends on how long HPTA was suppressed for.

If your HPTA was suppressed from a single dose of Test your HPTA would slow and recover rather quickly, but if you ran a cycle for let's say 12 weeks, you need a proper PCT just to aid the HPTA in recovering since naturally it may take months to recover natural production. Hell, even with a dialed in PCT there are no certainties that your natural production will ever recover fully.

Hey thanks for getting back to me.

That 5.0 daily release figure was in relation to long term esters producing a small amount that doesn’t provide “normal” or above normal levels of testosterone production but still suppressing your system.

To be a bit more clear, if you took a long term ester (such as test U) those levels could be anywhere from 1mg - 20mg daily release for several weeks or months even. (Toward the end of the half-life)

Because the level is so low would natural production kick in at all or would the body be suppressed for that entire period?

Essentially my question is does the body require absolutely zero exogenous testosterone to begin it’s own natural function even if it’s as low as 1-5mg per day, or will it begin to right itself during that period?

 

[Canknucklehead]

If you have exogenous testosterone you will be suppressed.

 

[Skippy the kangaroo]

If you have exogenous testosterone you will be suppressed.

Yeah I figured as much.

Just curious because I’ve been able to find less research on longer term esters and when you look at daily release your levels can sit very low for a long period which would obviously be suboptimal

 

[Canknucklehead]

Yeah I figured as much.

Just curious because I’ve been able to find less research on longer term esters and when you look at daily release your levels can sit very low for a long period which would obviously be suboptimal

Maybe someone with more science knowledge would be able to comment on the specifics.

@Type-IIx perhaps?

 

[Type-IIx]

The HPG axis will become fully suppressed with >= ~7mg daily exogenous T (active T, after Esterase activity and cleaving of the ester from IM injection). Other compounds are more or less suppressive, e.g., Var only modestly suppresses the HPG axis with high dose use (i.e., 80mg daily anavar for 12 weeks, on average, suppresses HPG axis functioning by ~30%). Basically, aromatizing androgens are the most suppressive (T is relatively suppressive, more suppressive than Deca) and compounds that aromatize to potent aromatic products (e.g., MENT) are the most suppressive, while mild, non-aromatizing androgens tend to be less suppressive.

 

[Type-IIx]

I should say also, the compounds that (commonly the progestins or trienes) with direct PR, ER binding also cause substantial HPG axis suppression directly rather than via their aromatic products.

 

[Skippy the kangaroo]

The HPG axis will become fully suppressed with >= ~7mg daily exogenous T (active T, after Esterase activity and cleaving of the ester from IM injection). Other compounds are more or less suppressive, e.g., Var only modestly suppresses the HPG axis with high dose use (i.e., 80mg daily anavar for 12 weeks, on average, suppresses HPG axis functioning by ~30%). Basically, aromatizing androgens are the most suppressive (T is relatively suppressive, more suppressive than Deca) and compounds that aromatize to potent aromatic products (e.g., MENT) are the most suppressive, while mild, non-aromatizing androgens tend to be less suppressive.

Thanks for the reply.

Really interesting. So depending on the compound, >=7mgs per day would have some suppression but the body would begin to activate and pct could be started.

If that semi suppression was over a month would the suggested approach be to pct for the full period to aid the natural production?

Assuming bolderone is one of the more mild compounds. If it had to be a final shot on the cycle. (Ie right before coming off) pct could still be started a few weeks later even though there is a low level of daily release in the system for a month or more?

 

[Type-IIx]

Thanks for the reply.

Really interesting. So depending on the compound, >=7mgs per day would have some suppression but the body would begin to activate and pct could be started.

If that semi suppression was over a month would the suggested approach be to pct for the full period to aid the natural production?

Assuming bolderone is one of the more mild compounds. If it had to be a final shot on the cycle. (Ie right before coming off) pct could still be started a few weeks later even though there is a low level of daily release in the system for a month or more?

To be clear, 7mg daily is what comports with the upper end of natural T production. Aside from that, some compounds are more or less suppressive. I am confused by where you get from 7mg causing full suppression to "some suppression" and "semi suppression." I also am confused by the assumption that boldenone is a mild compound with respect to HPG axis functioning. And why you think PCT does anything beneficial.

 

[Type-IIx]

Honing in on your precise original question: "Essentially my question is does the body require absolutely zero exogenous testosterone to begin it’s own natural function even if it’s as low as 1-5mg per day, or will it begin to right itself during that period?"

This is a very theoretical question that I don't think has been answered. Perhaps @PeterBond knows. I suspect there could be, given a long enough time frame at say 2.5 mg daily exogenous T (active hormone, after Esterase activity and cleaving of the ester if administered intramuscularly) something on par with 33% suppression (if the individual's base-line T is ~7mg daily).

For all practical purposes though, you might as well just come off and not PCT since recovery is not accelerated by any such methods.

 

[Skippy the kangaroo]

To be clear, 7mg daily is what comports with the upper end of natural T production. Aside from that, some compounds are more or less suppressive. I am confused by where you get from 7mg causing full suppression to "some suppression" and "semi suppression." I also am confused by the assumption that boldenone is a mild compound with respect to HPG axis functioning. And why you think PCT does anything beneficial.

Just to be clear. I’m not offering an opinion as I’m not a subject matter expert in this, I’m trying to learn and understand and perhaps help others as I haven’t seen this discussed much elsewhere.

On the theoretical side it looks like I wrote that >=7mgs wrong should be <=7mgs. But what I was kind of getting at is it a sliding scale (depending on a large number of factors) in regard to the % of suppression placed on the system under the 7mg or similar mark? I think you’ve answered that in your latest reply.

On the practical side could you please elaborate on your comments about PCT?

Thanks

 

[hijoshiki]

For all the knowledge on this subject personal experience will be your best teacher.

If you plan to cycle on and off it's best to stick with short esters, something like acetate that will be out of your system rather quickly. Even acetate will stick around for a couple of weeks.

Best ball recovery for myself has always been ace for three weeks and then just stop. It will be 4 weeks later and you'll notice the balls starting to plump up and gain volume.

I'm not into the whole PCT, Sarms, hCG stuff. I don't like the sides from any of these. Both Power PCT and absolutely nothing both arrive at the same natural levels within 9 months.

Even me having used for the past 15 years, I can come off and get my nuts to start working again, I did it just recently by using nothing but test ace for 6 weeks and then I just stopped for two months and there were my tiny little raisin nuts getting nice and fat and felt fine to a degree, but not as good as I did while I'm on, so I'm back on.

Obviously in my case I'm a lifer, I will never be without using, but it's not a bad idea to come off every now and then to wake up the ballsac. And in my case I know something is happening down there because I get sharp pains randomly shooting up from my balls that grab my attention. And of course I feel the nut sac getting fuller where's when I go for years without coming off they get so tiny I start getting worried.

 

[Type-IIx]

Just to be clear. I’m not offering an opinion as I’m not a subject matter expert in this, I’m trying to learn and understand and perhaps help others as I haven’t seen this discussed much elsewhere.

On the theoretical side it looks like I wrote that >=7mgs wrong should be <=7mgs. But what I was kind of getting at is it a sliding scale (depending on a large number of factors) in regard to the % of suppression placed on the system under the 7mg or similar mark? I think you’ve answered that in your latest reply.

On the practical side could you please elaborate on your comments about PCT?

Thanks

Sure. The HAARLEM study suggests post-cycle therapy (PCT) doesn't work

It makes sense to preserve HPG axis functioning with hCG (and optimally, hMG also) on cycle, rather than trying to restimulate things post-, basically.