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[LittleD90]

Go to post #5821 and look at my situation, I cant seem to figure out my issue and not many comments in way of scenarios.

Well if you’ve been on real pharm gh from the dr and still pulled the same then I can only assume it’s a response issue
Cause I can say for sure my physique has changed over the past 7 weeks and I’m tired as fuck all day
No other sides to speak of tho but only doing 6iu eod (fasted around 4/5am)

 

[Standfast]

Something is definitely off with me just has me puzzled as to why my numbers dropped and after changing to generic as well as upping the dose igf-1 was the exact same number, I'm not leaning out, no tiredness, nothing absolutely nothing. Then the clinic that prescribed me the gh just said well we can prescribe you a different kind as we have no idea what's wrong.

 

[138casanova]

Well if you’ve been on real pharm gh from the dr and still pulled the same then I can only assume it’s a response issue
Cause I can say for sure my physique has changed over the past 7 weeks and I’m tired as fuck all day
No other sides to speak of tho but only doing 6iu eod (fasted around 4/5am)

Does the tiredness ever go away? It's the only side I can't stand. I'm about three weeks away from finishing my second kit.

 

[Logan44551]

Does the tiredness ever go away? It's the only side I can't stand. I'm about three weeks away from finishing my second kit.

You're running the 120's? Sides are really use dependant. I've never gotten the tiredness. Hope it gets better for you.

 

[138casanova]

You're running the 120's? Sides are really use dependant. I've never gotten the tiredness. Hope it gets better for you.

Yeah, the 120s. Sides I get are water retention in hands, tingly fingers/dead hands when I lie down and sleep, and tiredness. I have to assume my body will acclimate at some point. [emoji2369]

 

[Mighty-mouse]

Yeah, the 120s. Sides I get are water retention in hands, tingly fingers/dead hands when I lie down and sleep, and tiredness. I have to assume my body will acclimate at some point. [emoji2369]

Depends some runs I am tired the whole run. Others are hit and miss.

 

[LittleD90]

Depends some runs I am tired the whole run. Others are hit and miss.

Does the tiredness ever go away? It's the only side I can't stand. I'm about three weeks away from finishing my second kit.

I’m guessing mine is thyroid related but not 100% just cause my total t4 and t3 came back low but free t4 was norm and free t3 high
I’m only 7 weeks in and the tiredness started about a week or two ago only has gotten worse but not as bad as when I ran a gram of test 50mg dbol that shit had me napping every day lol
It’s something I can live with but would prefer not to
Still staring at this bottle of t4 I have

 

[mtt]

Second time you've said this, then Mtt's blood work comes back with a piss poor number, and you say blood work varies and isn't reliable

Exactly. There is zero evidence that a one iu increase equates to a 100 increase in IGF. I've been around for decades and have never read this or even heard of it as a rule of thumb. So 10 ius, which is routinely used at the amateur level will get your IGF level to 1000 ng/ml. Have you tried this on yourself and posted the results? Beginning Pros are routinely at 15 ius/days. Please post any evidence you have of this being even remotely true.

 

[Logan44551]

Exactly. There is zero evidence that a one iu increase equates to a 100 increase in IGF. I've been around for decades and have never read this or even heard of it as a rule of thumb. So 10 ius, which is routinely used at the amateur level will get your IGF level to 1000 ng/ml. Have you tried this on yourself and posted the results? Beginning Pros are routinely at 15 ius/days. Please post any evidence you have of this being even remotely true.

Everytime I've tested, it's been in neighborhood of 100 points per iu. I've never tested while running higher than 4iu, my numbers came back in the mid 400's. I'd have to dig them up. Never seen igf on someone running 10iu, I don't think it'd be in the 1000's though

 

[138casanova]

Everytime I've tested, it's been in neighborhood of 100 points per iu. I've never tested while running higher than 4iu, my numbers came back in the mid 400's. I'd have to dig them up. Never seen igf on someone running 10iu, I don't think it'd be in the 1000's though

That's why I mentioned the law of diminishing returns. Mtt just decided to skip that part.

 

[LittleD90]

Well shit fuck
I have been taking berberine the entire time I’ve been on gh and just read it lowers igf-1....well fuck time to stop that shit

 

[mtt]

well my blood work was very similar 2.5iu s roughly 4/5 weeks and igf1 went from 170 to 219
I just assumed it was cause I tested too early or some other factor but now I’m getting a tad suspicious....

2 ius is considered a replacement dose. Like 100mg/wk Test Cyp. The reference range is around 100-200 so at 200 you are right in the middle. Just like when you take just a replacement dose of Test you shut off your own production. If your goal is to be above average, to have to take above average levels. If 2 ius is replacement I would start on at least 4 ius. But get tested so you know for sure where you are at and where you want to be.

 

[mtt]

That's why I mentioned the law of diminishing returns. Mtt just decided to skip that part.

OK, then tell us when this law of diminishing returns kicks in? And, again, where did you get this? Is there a study or just made of bro science and did it apply to you? If your base level is at an average 200 ng/ml and you did 3 ius
did that move you up to 500 ng/ml?

Maybe you are right. It's just some evidence is required to make such an across the board claim. It certainly doesn't apply to me at 8ius/day

 

[138casanova]

OK, then tell us when this law of diminishing returns kicks in? And, again, where did you get this? Is there a study or just made of bro science and did it apply to you? If your base level is at an average 200 ng/ml and you did 3 ius
did that move you up to 500 ng/ml?

Maybe you are right. It's just some evidence is required to make such an across the board claim. It certainly doesn't apply to me at 8ius/day

There is definitely a bit of bro-science in there, which is why I said "general rule." To be clear, that term is not and shouldn't be considered scientific, so I raise my hand on the foul if it was taken that way.

The 100 per 1 IU has been mentioned on here from other people as well, so it's not original thought. However, it does ring true for me. I tested at 4 IU per day, and had an IGF of 415. You mention the base level + 100 per IU, but there are studies to support that once you introduce exogenous GH, your GRF is significantly inhibited for the following 24 hours--not unsimilar to exogenous testosterone and your natural production. Following that logic, it would not be your base +, it would be the newly established level base of exogenous GH--assuming daily use or even EOD. That said, unlike the more predictable outcomes of testosterone replacement, GH supplementation is far from an exact science, especially in those who aren't actually medically deficit. Moreover, there are many factors, many of which have been mentioned countlessly on here, that have an impact on IGF-1. I'm not a doctor or a scientist, nor have I claimed to be. I can't tell you why 8IU doesn't do more for your IGF-1 than 4IU does for me. I can probably make a pretty good guess that it's due to your age, but that's not scientific. It is logical though. On this forum, your age would qualify you as an outlier. Hell, in my late 40s, I'm probably close to one in here as well. Finally, the law of diminishing returns is not static. I know you know this. You and I are taking the same compound and getting completely different results, because, in the end, it's not an exact science. There are a myriad of factors that, unfortunately, can't be quantified. If it were, we wouldn't have all these questions. I was trying to be helpful in passing along what I have experienced and what others have posted with their tests. I certainly wasn't trying be a know-it-all, which is why I said "general rule." Take it how you will. I'm going to keep using opti, getting blood work done, and posting my results. [emoji111]

 

[malfeasance]

well my blood work was very similar 2.5iu s roughly 4/5 weeks and igf1 went from 170 to 219
I just assumed it was cause I tested too early or some other factor but now I’m getting a tad suspicious....

I would not be unhappy with 219 on 2.5 iu. That does not seem off from where it should be. What number did you expect to see, and why?

 

[malfeasance]

Well if you’ve been on real pharm gh from the dr and still pulled the same then I can only assume it’s a response issue
Cause I can say for sure my physique has changed over the past 7 weeks and I’m tired as fuck all day
No other sides to speak of tho but only doing 6iu eod (fasted around 4/5am)

Wait - 6 iu? Did you raise it up after you tested your blood?

UPDATE - never mind. I see it is EOD

 

[LittleD90]

I would not be unhappy with 219 on 2.5 iu. That does not seem off from where it should be. What number did you expect to see, and why?

Well I figured my natural production would still be going 4 weeks in so maybe in the 300s?
Really wasn’t sure till I searched thru the threads and saw what some people were getting off like 2iu a day
But I have been on berberine which I Found out can lower igf1 so I’ll be dropping that as of today

 

[malfeasance]

Really wasn’t sure till I searched thru the threads and saw what some people were getting off like 2iu a day

Are others getting 300s off 2 iu a day?

It took me 5 to get 345 (not Optis).

 

[LittleD90]

Are others getting 300s off 2 iu a day?

It took me 5 to get 345 (not Optis).

I’ll have to go back through and find it but it seems everyone reacts differently
So I wanna run this at 8iu eod drop the berberine and retest in about 6-8 weeks and see the difference
Was it another generic you used ?

 

[malfeasance]

Yes, another generic (or Chinese UGL) for that result.