Planning a cycle for a fuck load of mass (health is not an object here)

[BigTomJ]

No we are not. Because it's plausible, it's not optimal and we are here for optimal, not plausible.

Someone can get in stage ready physique utilizing heavy ass free weights.

Is it plausible? Yes!
Is it optimal? No. It's RETARDED.

Right, but i was NEVER talking in the context of prep.
go read through this conversation again, i think you are losing the context.

Prep and a normal cuts are different, because one cares about an aesthetic result and the other cares only about fat loss.

I was talking about simple cuts, not contest prep.
I was speaking on the fact that many compounds are referred to as "cutting drugs" or specifically in this thread which started this discussion "cutting aids" incorrectly SPECIFICALLY in the context of a casual fat loss focused cut, such as the subject of this thread. That was the entire purpose of my comments is that they are not "cutting drugs" in this context because they will make zero difference over a "bulking" drug in this context.

I have never once suggested any protocol vs another in this discussion, only that people need to stop thinking of drugs in terms of cutting vs bulking drugs as its outdated and simply incorrect.

I seriously cant figure out where im losing you on this.

unless you actually think doing a fatloss cut on deca and dbol is actually "less optimal" and will somehow make you lose less fat

 

[narta]

unless you actually think doing a fatloss cut on deca and dbol is actually "less optimal" and will somehow make you lose less fat

No, I think that since there are PEDs that can used to OPTIMALLY cut there is no need to use deca, dbol or anything that isn't optimal. Just because contest prep is taking cutting into extreme, it doesn't mean that the same tools shouldn't be used for a "simple" (by your definition) cut.

That's my point. PEDs are tools that can be used by professionals and amateurs alike, the only difference being that on a contest prep, one is much more worried by the other factors that needs to pay attention in order to hit ABSOLUTE peak for a short time window.

Can one cut on deca and dbol? Yes.
Should he? No!

 

[jJjburton]

You both are talking back and forth over the wording of eachothers statement, not even the actual material.

You are both wrong anyway…answer is tren

 

[DECLAN]

You both are talking back and forth over the wording of eachothers statement, not even the actual material.

You are both wrong anyway…answer is tren

Tren trumps all!

 

[BigTomJ]

No, I think that since there are PEDs that can used to OPTIMALLY cut there is no need to use deca, dbol or anything that isn't optimal.

so you think something like masteron is "optimal" for a non contest cut? why?

Just because contest prep is taking cutting into extreme, it doesn't mean that the same tools shouldn't be used for a "simple" (by your definition) cut.

prep is not just "taking it to the extreme" the tools that are used are irrelevant for a "simple" cut because the benefits they are used for in prep are irrelevant to a regular cut.

Can one cut on deca and dbol? Yes.
Should he? No!

specifically why do you believe so?

again, im not arguing in favor of cutting on deca and dbol.
but exactly what outcome do you believe is a product of these compounds that makes them "retarded" for a casual cut protocol?

do you believe their estrogenic effects are counterproductive in some way to a fat loss phase?

do you believe their presumed water retentive reputation is counterproductive?

Do you believe the traditional "cutting" options, like masteron, are more effective for the goal of strict fatloss?

 

[BigTomJ]

You both are talking back and forth over the wording of eachothers statement, not even the actual material.

You are both wrong anyway…answer is tren

im specifically not discussing tren, as thats more of a nuanced discussion contrary to my stance of "cutting vs bulking drugs" where tren is in a more unique spot where it has some unique qualities and effects that do actually seem to make it debatably more effective in a fat loss protocol.

tren is one of the few examples with unique effects that does actually distinguish itsself more completely under one usecase rather than the other.

 

[narta]

so you think something like masteron is "optimal" for a non contest cut? why?


prep is not just "taking it to the extreme" the tools that are used are irrelevant for a "simple" cut because the benefits they are used for in prep are irrelevant to a regular cut.


specifically why do you believe so?

again, im not arguing in favor of cutting on deca and dbol.
but exactly what outcome do you believe is a product of these compounds that makes them "retarded" for a casual cut protocol?

do you believe their estrogenic effects are counterproductive in some way to a fat loss phase?

do you believe their presumed water retentive reputation is counterproductive?

Do you believe the traditional "cutting" options, like masteron, are more effective for the goal of strict fatloss?

You don't get it, it's ok.

Crack on.

 

[sbtr12]

You don't get it, it's ok.

Crack on.

Hey man, you tried. I was not willing.
You are a better man than me with a lot more patience.

 

[Nidus]

im specifically not discussing tren, as thats more of a nuanced discussion contrary to my stance of "cutting vs bulking drugs" where tren is in a more unique spot where it has some unique qualities and effects that do actually seem to make it debatably more effective in a fat loss protocol.

tren is one of the few examples with unique effects that does actually distinguish itsself more completely under one usecase rather than the other.

How does a usual cutting cycle look like, one that you would consider really good and how it would differ from low, medium and high dose assuming this is how its done for amateur/pro qualifiers/pro levels

Genuinely just curios to learn more

 

[DECLAN]

No, I think that since there are PEDs that can used to OPTIMALLY cut there is no need to use deca, dbol or anything that isn't optimal. Just because contest prep is taking cutting into extreme, it doesn't mean that the same tools shouldn't be used for a "simple" (by your definition) cut.

That's my point. PEDs are tools that can be used by professionals and amateurs alike, the only difference being that on a contest prep, one is much more worried by the other factors that needs to pay attention in order to hit ABSOLUTE peak for a short time window.

Can one cut on deca and dbol? Yes.
Should he? No!

Hey man a tool is a tool bro. If you can cut a tree with a knife why use a chainsaw, yeah it will take a year or so to do it but you know its not like you need it gone optimally; cutting is cutting!

 

[Sector]

TLDR for cutting:
Calories consumed < calories burned

compound choice boils down to preference. Some people might want to look like the michelin man while cutting, some people prefer a dryer look and less water retention (also better for blood pressure retaining less water). I prefer the later personally. again, all preference

 

[BigTomJ]

Hey man a tool is a tool bro. If you can cut a tree with a knife why use a chainsaw, yeah it will take a year or so to do it but you know its not like you need it gone optimally; cutting is cutting!

Compound selection will have no impact on the speed of your cut.
Using Masteron just because you're cutting will not make your cut any more successful or faster just like using a conventionally "bulking" compound will not make your cut any less successful or slower.

 

[BigTomJ]

You don't get it, it's ok.

Crack on.

Noted, I'll use smaller words for you next time. Apparently this entire conversation has soared over your head

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Health should be an objective if you want to keep any of the mass you gain…

Gonna be the most jacked guy in the cardiac floor with heart failure

 

[gotmyles]

prolactin will be pretty high lol

 

[BigTomJ]

How does a usual cutting cycle look like, one that you would consider really good and how it would differ from low, medium and high dose assuming this is how its done for amateur/pro qualifiers/pro levels

Genuinely just curios to learn more

This is a super individualistic question, each person will be drastically different.
But I'll try to generalize.

So for a regular fat loss phase (non-contest, no extreme deficit, just lean out some and fix insulin sensitivity)., I prefer to go with the minimum amount needed to preserve muscle mass. For me this is generally just trt.

I think most non contest cutting cycles are a waste since you aren't in an advantageous position to grow new tissue, and it doesn't take much at all to maintain muscle.


Contest cutting cycles pretty generally include test, mast, and winny or anavar towards the end with the option of some tren at some point.

Dosing wise is going to be all over the map.
There are amateurs that take more than pros, and there are pros that take less than I do. It's going to be so individualistic I can't give an actual generalized recommendation for dosing.


I can tell you what I take, and I can say what kind of numbers I see (wether I agree with them or not) but I can't speak for what the top pros are taking, the pros I'm friends with are lower level pros or classic physique guys that are already at their weight cap. So I don't believe they are fair examples

 

[DECLAN]

Compound selection will have no impact on the speed of your cut.
Using Masteron just because you're cutting will not make your cut any more successful or faster just like using a conventionally "bulking" compound will not make your cut any less successful or slower.

yea there is, you’re assuming everyone has the same reaction on drugs. It is not easy for me to bulk on anadrol because it induces acid reflux, same shit with cutting on eq, because strangely it drives my appetite up.

Sure, I can work through it but that isn’t optimal is it. We can word it differently anyway we want but if we’re going to use drugs shouldn’t we use it intelligently? Or just use random compounds because diet dictates everything?

 

[BigTomJ]

yea there is, you’re assuming everyone has the same reaction on drugs. It is not easy for me to bulk on anadrol because it induces acid reflux, same shit with cutting on eq, because strangely it drives my appetite up.

Sure, I can work through it but that isn’t optimal is it. We can word it differently anyway we want but if we’re going to use drugs shouldn’t we use it intelligently? Or just use random compounds because diet dictates everything?

I completely agree. There is more nuanced than just the broscience "cut vs bulk" drugs.

You gave a perfect example, anadrol is commonly a "bulking" drug, but contrary to the broscience labeling, it's no actually a good choice for you.

Let's look at mast vs npp.
Mast is clearly the broscience favorite as a cutting drug.
Some people may have slightly more water retention on npp than mast.
Does that mean you're going to lose less fat or have your cut take longer because you opted for npp vs mast?
Of course not. And that ALL I've been saying.

It's one thing when there is objective reasoning in favor of one option vs another, such as your examples between EQ and anadrol, but simply "use Masteron on a cut bro" broscience bullshit is outdated and silly.

 

[narta]

I'll use smaller words for you next time.

You can't. You already at the maximum threshold of your intelligence.

 

[narta]

Hey man a tool is a tool bro. If you can cut a tree with a knife why use a chainsaw, yeah it will take a year or so to do it but you know its not like you need it gone optimally; cutting is cutting!

Yeah why bother with the right tools...