Primo Dose?

[ggoe]

Hello Meso,
I have a general question I'm hoping you guys can help me out with. I am a 45 year old and after a long hiatus have been back working out 6 days a week for the past 3 years. I've started my very first trt cycle 3 months ago. I am now at 375 mg test p a week over 3 injections. I have some Primo I was considering adding in. First question what would be a good starter dosage? Second question is there a better option to add in before adding primo? I should add that I also implement four units GH. Thanks

 

[DugPrime]

I dont think you are trying to get anyone to use insulin I’m just saying it’s definitely not safe for a beginning user let alone advanced. If the average healthy person takes an injection of insulin it could kill them if they are not diabetic. Do I think with research and years in bodybuilding one can do it safely, sure. Tons of people use it. But saying it’s safer than trt, sorry dude I just can’t agree with you there.

This is not true. Unless you're doing something dangerous or fall on your head when hypoglycemic, you'll just wake up a bit tired and without any damage.

Also, I showed you this link: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/pdi.1960020113

"Attempted suicide with insulin overdose is uncommon. Six patients are reported who took 100-1600 units of insulin. All recovered from the acute episode without evidence of cerebral damage."

And one last thing—the average healthy male (18-65 years old) has enough glycogen in their liver to cover up to 20 IU of fast-acting insulin, so even without carbs, he probably wouldn't faint.

But again, how could 5 IU with a ton of carbs be dangerous? If even 1,600 IU failed to cause suicide or cerebral damage, and the body has enough glycogen to cover 20 IU of fast-acting insulin, where is the real risk?

This belief that insulin is extremely dangerous and can kill you easily is a myth that has been spread all over the internet for decades. Many well-known coaches have explained this in podcasts, which I can link you to if you want. Insulin is VERY safe, compared to AAs.

 

[CraneKraken]

Well that's a good question that I guess I should have asked myself. I've always been very good at being able to get lean and somewhat cut. More of the Athletic look. I've also not had much of a problem growing my chest somewhat decently. What I would say my goal is is to get more vascular and to get a more rounder book to my arms and shoulders. I've always been able to get to a certain point and it seems I just can't grow very much after that. As far as my E2 I have not ordered a panel and I know I need to get on top of that I certainly would check it before I doubled with Primo because I do not want to crush my levels I'm around 170 lean so I would definitely like to put on some muscle mass

Like you, I am also a former athlete with a lean athletic build. I'm also 46yrs old. I'm 6'1", 220lbs and have been back at it for about 9 months. So we have some things in common. I'm on a much higher dose of Test, as well as some NPP and some Tren. I'm also taking Anadrol atm. So take this suggestion with a grain of salt but it may help with your vascularity. I recently upped my GH from 4iu's to 6iu's -I take berberine as well- and saw an ridiculous increase in my vascularity. I also switched to a more reputable GH source which I believe made huge difference. There aren't many downsides to GH, especially at moderate doses so I suggestion you up your GH to get more vascular. If that doesn't work I'd maybe consider trying new source.

Again, take that with a grain of salt. I'm just sharing what worked for me and since we have a similar athletic background and are the same age simply upping your GH might get you where you'd like to be.

If you're worried about insulin resistance on the GH and don't think berberine is enough I'd consider a low dose of Tirzepatide to help mitigate any insulin resistance GH may bring on. Although it's my understanding insulin resistance usually doesn't happen until you get up to 10-14+ iu's of GH.

 

[BigJ89]

If you can’t manage or even accurately dose 5iu to 6iu fast acting insulin pre/post workout..then I seriously question if that person should even be using AAS (not saying whoever is in question can’t) just speaking generally

 

[Nidus]

Just dont over complicate things, stick to the basics. At 45yo i wouldn't fuck around with Insulin and stick to the basics, Test, Primo, 2-3iu of GH and maybe an occasional tab of anavar but wouldnt fuck around with anything else honestly.

 

[DugPrime]

If you can’t manage or even accurately dose 5iu to 6iu fast acting insulin pre/post workout..then I seriously question if that person should even be using AAS (not saying whoever is in question can’t) just speaking generally

Hahaha yeah, they even made pens for those dummies.

 

[CraneKraken]

500 test will more likely than not require some sort of AI. You might want to find your highest tolerable dose of test first - that is, highest you can get without noticeable side effects like bad acne or high E2 symptoms. Once you know this limit, it might be the correct time to implement 2nd compound (opting towards DHT derivatives such as primo before touching nor19).

Good luck.

That is solid advice but I'd say that 500mgs of test doesn't necessarily make one likely to require an AI. We all respond in vastly different ways to the compounds we take. There are plenty of ppl, myself included, who have never needed an AI, and I routinely run 750-1000mgs of Test on cycle. I once foolishly pushed it up to 1500mgs just to see how I'd respond and even then an AI didn't seem necessary -although I did feel like shit on that dose. I took some precautionary aromasin for about a week while on 800mgs of cypionate and all it really did was make me depressed.

I'm admittedly pretty opposed to AI's. I understand some guys need them. They just seem really toxic to me and I do think guys will too often jump on them when it's not necessary, especially the younger newbie crowd. It seems even some TRT docs will just blindly prescribe AI's, even when it's low dose TRT -although I'm sure most of us would agree that a lot of the TRT docs out there are morons that got a quick certificate/license to prescribe and are just in it for the money, and are less informed than most Meso members.

*I apologize for the long rambling reply. I'm a bit long-winded at times. I just caution against taking an AI until the last resort. Obviously his blood work is key. OP is definitely in the best place to help him reach his goals in a safe and smart way.

 

[ggoe]

Like you, I am also a former athlete with a lean athletic build. I'm also 46yrs old. I'm 6'1", 220lbs and have been back at it for about 9 months. So we have some things in common. I'm on a much higher dose of Test, as well as some NPP and some Tren. I'm also taking Anadrol atm. So take this suggestion with a grain of salt but it may help with your vascularity. I recently upped my GH from 4iu's to 6iu's -I take berberine as well- and saw an ridiculous increase in my vascularity. I also switched to a more reputable GH source which I believe made huge difference. There aren't many downsides to GH, especially at moderate doses so I suggestion you up your GH to get more vascular. If that doesn't work I'd maybe consider trying new source.

Again, take that with a grain of salt. I'm just sharing what worked for me and since we have a similar athletic background and are the same age simply upping your GH might get you where you'd like to be.

If you're worried about insulin resistance on the GH and don't think berberine is enough I'd consider a low dose of Tirzepatide to help mitigate any insulin resistance GH may bring on. Although it's my understanding insulin resistance usually doesn't happen until you get up to 10-14+ iu's of GH.

Awesome info I appreciate your response definitely sounds like we are somewhat in the same boat. I've been running for Iu GH for roughly a little more than a month. Had a few QSC kits but i think I will grab another kit or so on my next order

 

[ggoe]

Just dont over complicate things, stick to the basics. At 45yo i wouldn't fuck around with Insulin and stick to the basics, Test, Primo, 2-3iu of GH and maybe an occasional tab of anavar but wouldnt fuck around with anything else honestly.

Yeah I'm not looking to get into any crazy Cycles with a ton of compounds I just pretty much know naturally where my wall is and the fact that I've hit that and definitely want to gain vascularity and muscle growth

 

[Astartes]

This is not true. Unless you're doing something dangerous or fall on your head when hypoglycemic, you'll just wake up a bit tired and without any damage.

Also, I showed you this link: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/pdi.1960020113

"Attempted suicide with insulin overdose is uncommon. Six patients are reported who took 100-1600 units of insulin. All recovered from the acute episode without evidence of cerebral damage."

And one last thing—the average healthy male (18-65 years old) has enough glycogen in their liver to cover up to 20 IU of fast-acting insulin, so even without carbs, he probably wouldn't faint.

But again, how could 5 IU with a ton of carbs be dangerous? If even 1,600 IU failed to cause suicide or cerebral damage, and the body has enough glycogen to cover 20 IU of fast-acting insulin, where is the real risk?

This belief that insulin is extremely dangerous and can kill you easily is a myth that has been spread all over the internet for decades. Many well-known coaches have explained this in podcasts, which I can link you to if you want. Insulin is VERY safe, compared to AAs.

I’m going to educate myself more as a result of your posts. Even if it is out of pure curiosity. While a bit skeptical about its safety, I want to acknowledge that there are a lot of myths that if I had accepted at face value would have limited me.

 

[Astartes]

Awesome info I appreciate your response definitely sounds like we are somewhat in the same boat. I've been running for Iu GH for roughly a little more than a month. Had a few QSC kits but i think I will grab another kit or so on my next order

Better rethink ordering from QSC

 

[ggoe]

No doubt about it I suppose I was lucky to get what I got before everything fell down

 

[ve79]

Coming from a "similar" background of a "true" diagnosed hypogonadism (it took me 2-3 years to finally figure out) starting off with a TRT in a country which is very restrictive regarding this topic and nowhere close to what you could easily get in the US.

After being on TRT for a while using 20mg Anavar on a cut for a few weeks I used Primo the next year.
I used just 200mg per week and it did its job. Figured out how it affected my E2 on bloodwork to learn from that. Had to raise the Test at least to a 1:1 ratio, else I felt mentally and libido wise pretty bad even with (what most would consider) perfectly fine E2 levels on paper.

I also tried increasing Test only to a certain degree, but about 250-300mg I start feeling worse again mentally and libido wise - hello too much E2. I guess everybody is different. Just affects my mental side, nothing regarding gyno symptoms/RR or too much water retention.

From that experiences I adjust my dosages and compounds since I do not compete and I do not see more benefits feeling like shit for no reason.

But I guess a good solid advice is always to keep it as simple as possible.

I know people who tolerate 500mg Test a week using no AI. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones haha.

Im about to add primo next month. Ive never used it but Im 45 and im taking as little as 150mg of cyp and i feel great. Im strong and lean but once i did raise it to 200 i felt like shit and libido also suffered my estrogen went up to 90 I went back down to 150 and added 2mg of Arimidex weekly .

 

[NewGuy756]

Im about to add primo next month. Ive never used it but Im 45 and im taking as little as 150mg of cyp and i feel great. Im strong and lean but once i did raise it to 200 i felt like shit and libido also suffered my estrogen went up to 90 I went back down to 150 and added 2mg of Arimidex weekly .

you should probably get a sensitive E2 labs done as 2mg arimidex a week for 150 mg week test seems like way too much.

From what I read anecdotally that amount of arimidex is more suited to 500-800 mg test a week.

 

[ve79]

you should probably get a sensitive E2 labs done as 2mg arimidex a week for 150 mg week test seems like way too much.

From what I read anecdotally that amount of arimidex is more suited to 500-800 mg test a week.

I know my earodial is super sensitive. I feel fine though no issues with my joints but definitely have to look into it

 

[NewGuy756]

I know my earodial is super sensitive. I feel fine though no issues with my joints but definitely have to look into it

just get the sensitive E2 labs done.

If indeed that is the right dosage for you then you'd be an extreme outlier and you should consider if it's even worth it at all because that dosage is going to have negative side effects that can impact your health in the long run.

You should also gets labs done on your lipids and triglycerides, from the arimidex side effects and consult a doctor on the results.

 

[ve79]

just get the sensitive E2 labs done.

If indeed that is the right dosage for you then you'd be an extreme outlier and you should consider if it's even worth it at all because that dosage is going to have negative side effects that can impact your health in the long run.

You should also gets labs done on your lipids and triglycerides, from the arimidex side effects and consult a doctor on the results.

How long does it take for the arimidex to get out of my system before I get my blood work for my e2?

 

[BamaCrazy]

How long does it take for the arimidex to get out of my system before I get my blood work for my e2?

It varies person to person. Most of the drug will clear your system in 10 days. 6 days after ceasing to take the medication your body will gradually start making estrogen again.

 

[NewGuy756]

How long does it take for the arimidex to get out of my system before I get my blood work for my e2?

you are going to want to get tested while arimidex is in effect.

So likely the day after taking it, because what you are checking for is if it is crashing your E2.

You are going to want to take the sensitive E2 test because other broader spectrum labs that include E2 are too unreliable and by a large amount.

 

[ve79]

you are going to want to get tested while arimidex is in effect.

So likely the day after taking it, because what you are checking for is if it is crashing your E2.

You are going to want to take the sensitive E2 test because other broader spectrum labs that include E2 are too unreliable and by a large amount.

Ok I was supposed to take it yesterday but I didn't and my blood work is tomorrow?

 

[NewGuy756]

Ok I was supposed to take it yesterday but I didn't and my blood work is tomorrow?

IDK you should probably ask another member that also responded to you on this topic because they probably know way more about this than me.