Private Sources and Why They Aren't the Answer

[Crazy-Canuck]

I spoke with CBS about private vs public a few months ago.

I believe a strong point CBS made was that if a source is private then they aren't under the same scrutiny that a public source would be since they're not operating in the open.

If this is incorrect CBS, I apologize. I'm in no way trying to misrepresent your point or speak for you.

Before coming to this board I exclusively used private sources. Ever since Operation Raw Deal. I've been around a while. Lol.

However since this above point was made it really gave me pause. I'm not saying private sources aren't good or safe because they can be and are, depending. But it caused me to look around a bit for sure.

Pros and cons to everything. The important thing is to get as much information as possible before deciding on any source imo.

 

[Ackmud]

Nordic (canadian UGL with many meso customers) just posted that they're now a private source only, so according to the OP effective immediately they are now a "small operation that lacks the means to test their raw powders and finished product. The gear is usually made in a kitchen by an amateur without training in chemistry or sterility"

 

[jaymaximus]

Nordic (canadian UGL with many meso customers) just posted that they're now a private source only, so according to the OP effective immediately they are now a "small operation that lacks the means to test their raw powders and finished product. The gear is usually made in a kitchen by an amateur without training in chemistry or sterility"

Either you completely missed the point or youre just trying to stir things up.

Nothing is 100% all the time, especially in the AAS "game". The point of this thread is private labs arent some magical place where everything is perfect, which many people on the outside looking in believe.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Nordic (canadian UGL with many meso customers) just posted that they're now a private source only, so according to the OP effective immediately they are now a "small operation that lacks the means to test their raw powders and finished product. The gear is usually made in a kitchen by an amateur without training in chemistry or sterility"

I think you're being intentionally obtuse in order to flog a point that's only relevant to you. Was Nordic a large operation before going private? Did they test their product before going private? Did they cook their product in a lab, using chemists, before going private?

The answer is no to all of those questions. Nordic has always been a small-time operation - by their own admission.

We have been around for 4 years now being mainly a word of mouth company. Staying local for the last 3 years and now just expanding outside of our area.

 

[Cownan]

In prior posts nordic nordic showed that he labmax tested raws and got flamed by a few members for it. Nordic said they were small time but in comparison to who? And they never admitted one way or the other if they had a lab or real chemists working for them.If they went private so they dont end up like mission I dont think its a bad idea. All the big dawgs go down after some point as accepting numerous clients is potentially dangerous.

Mainly I care about getting good gear. Nordic always treated me good as did pareto and mission. Unfortunately the big dog out of the 3 went down so I see no reason to be a dick about it @Ackmud. Unless your mad you didnt make the cut anyways lol

I do agree with the point of the thread tho. Private doesnt mean they are any better than any other lab out there. Just means they are wanting to play safe. I see nothing wrong with that

 

[Ackmud]

You're totally misunderstanding my post Cowan, I wasn't being a dick towards Nordic, my post was sarcastic because the OP made an absolute statement that Private labs are all small and unsophisticated etc (the actual words I quoted earlier but I'm too lazy to re copy and paste). I disagree with that because from the private lab(s) I have experience with, all were public at one point, had great reviews when they were public, and decided to become private for their own reasons. So judging their operations as being small and kitchen-brewed just based on whether they're private or public doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Roger rabbit]

You're totally misunderstanding my post Cowan, I wasn't being a dick towards Nordic, my post was sarcastic because the OP made an absolute statement that Private labs are all small and unsophisticated etc (the actual words I quoted earlier but I'm too lazy to re copy and paste). I disagree with that because from the private lab(s) I have experience with, all were public at one point, had great reviews when they were public, and decided to become private for their own reasons. So judging their operations as being small and kitchen-brewed just based on whether they're private or public doesn't make sense to me.

But they are small and kitchen brewed..... you won't find a large lab facility with dedicated machinery, mass spec machines etc going private. They couldn't go private with the over head they would endure, they would need mass customers just to sustain.

So there is facts to private labs are small and brewed in the kitchen, or bathtub, or shack regardless where it is, it's small and its not brewed in a certified lab.

 

[Cownan]

@Ackmud. Man me and sarcasm do not go together haha. Wife hates me on that as well. So I apologize

@Roger rabbit for us canadians all labs are ugl (im sure most USA ones are too lol). Very rarely will one come across solid pharm grade. And even then its expensive. I got a script and its 100$ for 100mg/ml cyp. As long as I know labs are professional in sterility and high quality it makes no difference to me really

 

[Ackmud]

But they are small and kitchen brewed..... you won't find a large lab facility with dedicated machinery, mass spec machines etc going private. They couldn't go private with the over head they would endure, they would need mass customers just to sustain.

So there is facts to private labs are small and brewed in the kitchen, or bathtub, or shack regardless where it is, it's small and its not brewed in a certified lab.

so what defines a "large lab facility" and what does "dedicated machinery" consist of?

 

[Roger rabbit]

so what defines a "large lab facility" and what does "dedicated machinery" consist of?

I explained it in my post my man.

Mass spec machines, a lab facility that would be ISO certified equipment and procedures. Exactly what a ugl would not be able to have.

A ugl IS brewing in there home or a "clean" room they make with curtains to try to contain debris etc. ALL ugl are small regardless of what you believe. One might have more customers than the next but they are ALL small, they all brew in the kitchen they are ALL in no way large with huge overhead.

Private sources are fine, no one is disagreeing with this aspect, but the point CBS is making is valid that being a private lab you don't have the exposure and if you do get scammed that same private lab can scam people over and over and bring new victims in due to the fact it is not spoken about since it is, infact, private.

A open source lab will be exposed very quickly on all aspects from scamming to low doses gear very quickly. Those two facts cannot be denied.

CBS point isn't in the fact that a private lab isn't good or doesn't have the potential to be good, his original post came about during a time when everyone seemed to be hyped up on private sources and were basically discrediting open source labs.

 

[Roger rabbit]

@Ackmud. Man me and sarcasm do not go together haha. Wife hates me on that as well. So I apologize

@Roger rabbit for us canadians all labs are ugl (im sure most USA ones are too lol). Very rarely will one come across solid pharm grade. And even then its expensive. I got a script and its 100$ for 100mg/ml cyp. As long as I know labs are professional in sterility and high quality it makes no difference to me really

I'm not arguing this at all. A small facility can be as steril as they be. Not to the level of a true pharm grade, but regardless of this, there are measure a small ugl can take to ensure the end product is safe for its users. No denying this. Lots of good ones out there that I'm sure have solid practices. Again, they can make the product cheaper because they don't have the overhead a pharm product would... FDA regulations or whatever country regulations, fees, operating expenses, then of course the middle man, the pharmacy itself adding a price on top of the product to give to the customer etc.

The point of this thread is exactly as I explained, a private lab simply does not get put on blast like a open source lab. You always have the potential to get scammed just as hard as a open source lab and they have a higher availability to bring in more and more victims without being noticed or talked about. So private labs aren't always better than open source labs. That's what CBS point was. And this came about at a time when MANY members just went on and on about private labs, he was basically giving a warning, and I know for a fact.... of several private labs who scammed people HARD for a LONG time before they finally disappeared with people's money.

It is simply a warning letting people know to not get sucked into the private labs are the best labs and discredit the open source labs.

 

[Ackmud]

I explained it in my post my man.

Mass spec machines, a lab facility that would be ISO certified equipment and procedures. Exactly what a ugl would not be able to have.

A ugl IS brewing in there home or a "clean" room they make with curtains to try to contain debris etc. ALL ugl are small regardless of what you believe. One might have more customers than the next but they are ALL small, they all brew in the kitchen they are ALL in no way large with huge overhead.

Private sources are fine, no one is disagreeing with this aspect, but the point CBS is making is valid that being a private lab you don't have the exposure and if you do get scammed that same private lab can scam people over and over and bring new victims in due to the fact it is not spoken about since it is, infact, private.

A open source lab will be exposed very quickly on all aspects from scamming to low doses gear very quickly. Those two facts cannot be denied.

CBS point isn't in the fact that a private lab isn't good or doesn't have the potential to be good, his original post came about during a time when everyone seemed to be hyped up on private sources and were basically discrediting open source labs.

I understood the OP to be public vs private lab discussion whereas your post is admittedly UGL vs pharm grade - I think we're discussing different things here

 

[Roger rabbit]

I understood the OP to be public vs private lab discussion whereas your post is admittedly UGL vs pharm grade - I think we're discussing different things here

Eh possibly we are talking around each other. Either way, was a fun convo. STAY safe my man[emoji106]

 

[Cownan]

@Roger rabbit I always enjoy reading your posts. They are always well thought and I should know better before jumping in haha

 

[Roger rabbit]

@Roger rabbit I always enjoy reading your posts. They are always well thought and I should know better before jumping in haha

What fun would it be to sit back and not join in? Glad to have had the chance to conversate with you my man[emoji106]

 

[Crazy-Canuck]

You're totally misunderstanding my post Cowan, I wasn't being a dick towards Nordic, my post was sarcastic because the OP made an absolute statement that Private labs are all small and unsophisticated etc (the actual words I quoted earlier but I'm too lazy to re copy and paste). I disagree with that because from the private lab(s) I have experience with, all were public at one point, had great reviews when they were public, and decided to become private for their own reasons. So judging their operations as being small and kitchen-brewed just based on whether they're private or public doesn't make sense to me.

Even small labs can make good gear. Its about the quality of the raws. Providing the person formulating knows what they're doing. The problem is testing said raws to accurately measure exact purity. This takes expertise and expensive lab equipment from my understanding.

 

[Anonymous J]

T What private sources don't have is better quality gear than established public sources.

CBS

Since this is my first post... I'm going to preface this by establishing here and now that I will never rep, shill, or hump any brand of gear. Not via post, pm, or otherwise.

CBS, it isn't very wise to speak in absolutes and lump everyone into one category... regardless of your post count, credibility on an internet forum, or real life anecdote.

There are plenty of private sources who employ talented brewers which will go above and beyond the standard.

One UGL in particular works in a positive pressure room, uses 1 meter long 50nm pore sectional cartridges to filter, washes the impurites from the raws (i.e carbolic acid from testosterone enanthate), has found a way to minimize hydrolysis in vivo by eliminating most of the benzyl alcohol and benzyl benzoate in favor of sesamol, neem, D-limonene, and a few other compounds in appropriate amounts (these compounds can be dangerous for the end user if you dont understand how to work with them). They also pasteurize all completed products for 4 hours at 176-181 F, barring trenbolones and testosterone cypionate, since cypionate under heat can and does become Tetrahydrofuranpropionate.

There are many other practices they put forth, and I can't be assed to list them all.

I'm sure this UGL is not alone in their effort. Not everyone puts money first. Some UGLs are dedicated advocacies for the lifestyle and care about the end user. It takes some hunting to find these gems.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

There are plenty of private sources who employ talented brewers which will go above and beyond the standard.

I'm sure this UGL is not alone in their effort.

Which is it? Are there plenty of private sources who employ talented brewers or do you just think there are?

One UGL in particular works in a positive pressure room, uses 1 meter long 50nm pore sectional cartridges to filter, washes the impurites from the raws (i.e carbolic acid from testosterone enanthate), has found a way to minimize hydrolysis in vivo by eliminating most of the benzyl alcohol and benzyl benzoate in favor of sesamol, neem, D-limonene, and a few other compounds in appropriate amounts (these compounds can be dangerous for the end user if you dont understand how to work with them). They also pasteurize all completed products for 4 hours at 176-181 F, barring trenbolones and testosterone cypionate, since cypionate under heat can and does become Tetrahydrofuranpropionate.

Assuming that statement is even true - and unless you have direct involvement with the lab in question you wouldn't even know if that actually takes place and isn't just marketing propaganda - how does it contradict what I said?

I noticed that at no point did you mention one of the most important QA steps: testing raws so the lab actually knows what their powder consists of.

I've never claimed it's not possible for a private lab to produce a quality product. I said it's much less likely for a small private lab to have the means to produce product of the same quality as the well established public sources. There's nothing controversial about that statement - or at least there shouldn't be.

Not everyone puts money first. Some UGLs are dedicated advocacies for the lifestyle and care about the end user.

Sure they do. Altruists commit felonies everyday and risk years in prison because they want to help and advocate on behalf of the community and lifestyle they believe in, right? Money has nothing to do with it. They're humanitarians, sacrificing for the good of their fellow man. I'm surprised they even accept payment for their gear.

 

[Anonymous J]

Are there plenty of private sources who employ talented brewers or do you just think there are?

Assuming that statement is even true - and unless you have direct involvement with the lab in question you wouldn't even know if that actually takes place and isn't just marketing propaganda - how does it contradict what I said?

I noticed that at no point did you mention one of the most important QA steps: testing raws so the lab actually knows what their powder consists of.

I've never claimed it's not possible for a private lab to produce a quality product. I said it's much less likely for a small private lab to have the means to produce product of the same quality as the well established public sources. There's nothing controversial about that statement - or at least there shouldn't be.

Sure they do. Altruists commit felonies everyday and risk years in prison because they want to help and advocate on behalf of the community and lifestyle they believe in, right? Money has nothing to do with it. They're humanitarians, sacrificing for the good of their fellow man. I'm surprised they even accept payment for their gear.

I'm not giving this sources name. Ever. Trying to make me look like a shill will end in failure. I joined this forum to help educate the members since many are in dire need of proper info. As far as I'm concerned, you're eloquent posting is wasted on vitriol.

1) I dont know how you expect me to incriminate myself or someone I may know. There are talented brewers who spend thousands of hours trying to make a better product. It is their lifeblood. All they do. They don't spend any time being the salesman. Your not getting a name or a lab from me. It isn't propaganda. It is fact witnessed by yours truly.

2) Lab. Doesn't test raws. Pick one. An operatiom that doesnt test raws isnt a lab. It's a dirty homebrew.

3) You actually.. in your OP... exactly said they will not have a better product. Lol. My experience says otherwise.

4) Money is always a prime motivator for any business - illegal or not. But for you to judge someone's MO/motives as you have so deftly done.... it's unsound and crass. Misfortunate and possibly misguided altruism... but altruism by nature nonetheless.

I think you just like to play devil's advocate lol. I don't know about you, but where I live.. nearly every BBer seems to look out for the others band of brothers style. That's how we should all be as a community. Dont rag on those doing good work pretending they can't exist.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

I'm not giving this sources name. Ever. Trying to make me look like a shill will end in failure.

Where did I ask for the source's name?

Why do your think I'm trying to make you look like a shill? Do you have a guilty conscience? Are you trying to hide something? You seem awfully defensive.

I joined this forum to help educate the members since many are in dire need of proper info.

Really? What info are they in dire need of that only you can provide?

Regardless, your 6 posts since February haven't done much to further your stated goal of helping to educate the members you claim are in dire need of proper info, have they?

As far as I'm concerned, you're eloquent posting is wasted on vitriol.

Perhaps you should reaquaint yourself with the definition of vitriol because there was nothing vitriolic about my reply to you or my OP.

1) I dont know how you expect me to incriminate myself or someone I may know. There are talented brewers who spend thousands of hours trying to make a better product. It is their lifeblood. All they do. They don't spend any time being the salesman. Your not getting a name or a lab from me. It isn't propaganda. It is fact witnessed by yours truly.

There you go again, suggesting that I've attempted to get this lab's name. You sure are defensive about this mysterious, unnamed lab.

2) Lab. Doesn't test raws. Pick one. An operatiom that doesnt test raws isnt a lab. It's a dirty homebrew.

And that is the vast majority of labs, whether they're public or private.

3) You actually.. in your OP... exactly said they will not have a better product. Lol. My experience says otherwise.

No I didn't. Perhaps you should read my OP again:

None of this is to say that public sources are inherently better than private sources. But just because a source is private doesn't mean the quality of their product is superior, either. There are no magic sources with special access to raw powder. At the end of the day, both public and private sources are selling exactly same thing - UGL quality gear.

4) Money is always a prime motivator for any business - illegal or not. But for you to judge someone's MO/motives as you have so deftly done.... it's unsound and crass.

I'm almost always crass but there was nothing unsound about my reasoning.

but where I live.. nearly every BBer seems to look out for the others band of brothers style. That's how we should all be as a community. Dont rag on those doing good work pretending they can't exist.

This is a pseudonymous forum where anyone can say they're anything. You may be comfortable giving people the benefit of the doubt but history has shown that approach is not only unsound, it's reckless. Believing we're all part of some "band of brothers" is a good way to lighten your pocketbook.