Rewriting US/Iraq history

greyowl

New Member
Dont let war supporters con you by rewriting the recent history of U.S. foreign policy, in order to draw a veil over the way the nation was misled into an invasion of Iraq. Focus on the practical failures of the Bush administration's policy as well as its morality. The war came at a heavy cost, even before the current fighting began: to prepare for the Iraq campaign, the administration diverted resources away from Afghanistan before the job was done, giving Al Qaeda a chance to get away and the Taliban a chance to regroup.

And while the initial invasion went smoothly, since then almost everything in Iraq has gone badly (Saddam's capture is the only real piece of good news from Iraq). American troops are being killed, innocent bystanders are being bombed, the economy remains moribund, and gasoline shortages and power outages continue.

To top it all off, the ongoing disorder in Iraq is a clear and present danger to the U.S.s national security. A large part of the U.S. military's combat strength is tied down in occupation duties, and Ashcroft just announced that more troops are on the way, leaving the U.S. ill prepared for crises elsewhere. Meanwhile, overstretch is undermining the readiness of the military as a whole. And the American taxpayers, already teetering under the load of a burden they cant sustain, are being asked to pay for the rebuilding of hospitals in Iraq, at a time when millions of Americans cant afford health insurance.

Maybe the Iraqi rebellion against the American occupation will evaporate; maybe the cost to America, in blood, dollars and national security, will start to decline. But even if all that happens, Americans should be deeply disturbed by the history of this war. For its message seems to be that as long as you wave the flag convincingly enough, it doesn't matter whether you tell the truth.

By now, youve become accustomed to the fact that the absence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction -- the principal public rationale for the war has turned out to be an utter lie. The war's more idealistic supporters clearly are uneasy about all this. That's why they lay so much stress on the belief (another Bush lie) that the U.S. invaded Iraq on humanitarian grounds, and their hopes for democracy in Iraq. They're not just looking for a happy ending; they're looking for moral redemption for a war fought on false pretenses.

As a practical matter, they'll be disappointed: the only leaders in Iraq with genuine popular followings seem to be Sunni and Shiite clerics. And they are the ones leading the rebellion against the occupation.
 
greyowl said:
And while the initial invasion went smoothly, since then almost everything in Iraq has gone badly (Saddam's capture is the only real piece of good news from Iraq). American troops are being killed, innocent bystanders are being bombed, the economy remains moribund, and gasoline shortages and power outages continue.

I dont know how this is rewriting history. Historically, we are doing better to rebuild Iraq than we did rebuilding post-war Germany and Japan. If you expected us to invade, over-throw a ruling government, and then rebuild, all the while the Iraqi people are holding our hands, then you sir, are the one who needs to re-read history.

No offense, greyowl, as I understand you are against the war. However, it is getting obvious to everyone on the boards that your anti-war propoganda is the result of some weird hatred for America. Very rarely do you make any points that are substaniated, it is all pure rhetoric. If you read AirBorne's post (which you say is a lie, without any evidence that it is), it DIRECTLY counters your assertions in the quote above. But you seem to not care. Who is the one spreading lies now? You or Bush?, or maybe both?
 
Mark Kerr said:
I dont know how this is rewriting history. Historically, we are doing better to rebuild Iraq than we did rebuilding post-war Germany and Japan. If you expected us to invade, over-throw a ruling government, and then rebuild, all the while the Iraqi people are holding our hands, then you sir, are the one who needs to re-read history.

No offense, greyowl, as I understand you are against the war. However, it is getting obvious to everyone on the boards that your anti-war propoganda is the result of some weird hatred for America. Very rarely do you make any points that are substaniated, it is all pure rhetoric. If you read AirBorne's post (which you say is a lie, without any evidence that it is), it DIRECTLY counters your assertions in the quote above. But you seem to not care. Who is the one spreading lies now? You or Bush?, or maybe both?

The portion of his comments you quote are taken out of context and they are factual. The man was actually providing facts, which many of the flag wavers have failed to do.

I am American by birth, American by choice, but I have to agree with greyowl's position. I do not see it as anti-american. He is trying, without much success, to open they eyes of the blind and unseeing.
WHY CANT YOU SEE WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS DOING AND HAS DONE? WHY DO YOU INSIST ON TURNING A BLIND EYE???????????
This is a very sad period in my life. I see my fellow Americans totally ignorant of the facts and emphatically refusing to accept the truth. I can only shake my head and pray for our future.
 
Mark Kerr said:
I dont know how this is rewriting history. Historically, we are doing better to rebuild Iraq than we did rebuilding post-war Germany and Japan. If you expected us to invade, over-throw a ruling government, and then rebuild, all the while the Iraqi people are holding our hands, then you sir, are the one who needs to re-read history.

No offense, greyowl, as I understand you are against the war. However, it is getting obvious to everyone on the boards that your anti-war propoganda is the result of some weird hatred for America. Very rarely do you make any points that are substaniated, it is all pure rhetoric. If you read AirBorne's post (which you say is a lie, without any evidence that it is), it DIRECTLY counters your assertions in the quote above. But you seem to not care. Who is the one spreading lies now? You or Bush?, or maybe both?

Since your comparison to the situation between Iraq and post-war Germany is incoherent and incomprehensible, I won't bother to refute this point, except to point out the rebuilding of Germany and Japan was an absolute success, and the occupation of Iraq has turned into a shambles.

By the way, if the history of World War 2 is a foretelling of things to come, this means that in 30 years we'll all be driving cars made in Iraq.

As to your second 'point' about AirBorne's post ... my response proved conclusively that the "chaplain's letter" is actually a forgery. The reason why I am not going to refute his assertions point by point is because they are a deliberate attempt by the forgers to draw attention to Bush's "humanitarian" mission, in order to sidetrack people from grasping the fact that Bush lied when he said he ordered the invasion of Iraq to make life better for Iraqis, and to protect American security. Which is, after all, the point of this thread.

As to your suggestion that I am anti-American -- it's a pretty common tactic among the right wing these days to attack the motives of someone when you can 't rebut their points. After all, if you can't refute their arguments, why not just assassinate their character? This is what you've just done. Believe me, it doesn't for a minute obscure the bankruptcy of the pro-war position which you take. Americans are seeing the trust cost of the war in the number of bodybags being sent home, and in their tax bills.

By the way, did you notice that you haven't addressed a single point in the post I used to start this thread?
 
Amen greyowl, haven't you grasped the fact that everyone on this board that supports this fucking senseless war is a conservative and they are backing up every one of Mr. Bush's fuckups.

I tell you what maybe some of you are just so oblivious to what the future holds between the U.S. and Iraq but it is not going to be nice. Where hell do you think that all of this mess came from? It was from the first time Bush Sr. went in there and stirred up trouble. I look at the big picture and it does not look very good.
 
jarz said:
The portion of his comments you quote are taken out of context and they are factual. The man was actually providing facts, which many of the flag wavers have failed to do.

I am American by birth, American by choice, but I have to agree with greyowl's position. I do not see it as anti-american. He is trying, without much success, to open they eyes of the blind and unseeing.
WHY CANT YOU SEE WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS DOING AND HAS DONE? WHY DO YOU INSIST ON TURNING A BLIND EYE???????????
This is a very sad period in my life. I see my fellow Americans totally ignorant of the facts and emphatically refusing to accept the truth. I can only shake my head and pray for our future.


Spetember 11 did a great thing for a America, it for the first time united our country. Now I see that it has worn off because we have boths sides here aruging and divided. This is exactlly what our enemies want. You know what. I really did not like Bill Clinton as president, but I supported him. The reason was simple he was my president. I have know idea what information he has, and what meetings go on in the White House. It is easy to sit back and verbally abuse the president. Try being the president see if any of you would so a better job with the information you have.
 
Iraqi weapons of mass destruction -- the principal public rationale for the war has turned out to be an utter lie.

hmmm....after the first gulf war, didnt saddam use "chemical/biological weapons" to kill fellow iraqi's who were against him? didnt he use these "weapons of mass destruction" on not only men, but women and children too? yes...yes he did. and its amazing how people seem to forget that little tidbit of information.

saddams iraq was a powerful force in that region. and to hold on to that power he made sure to let everyone know that he had these weapons and was not afraid to use them. he played the UN like an old fiddle.

saddam, the dirt bag that he is, is an intelligent man. he knew we were coming. isnt it possible that he had the weapons moved? to syria? what a coincidence that shortly after the invasion of iraq, syria said they wont go forward with their nuclear program. could it be because they new george w bush aint no pussy? most likely. also, i think its pretty damn possible that syria said that so that we wont send inspectors to syria and find these weapons that saddam had moved. hell...saddam sent a truckload of stolen money towards syria. why not some chems too?

maybe we should look at the bigger picture here. greyowl...you're not from the USA are you?

have a nice day
 
"it is getting obvious to everyone on the boards that your anti-war propoganda is the result of some weird hatred for America. Very rarely do you make any points that are substaniated, it is all pure rhetoric."

Well put Mark! Mark, if I was a partner in a law firm who was looking to hire you would get my vote. :)
 
joe shmoe said:
Iraqi weapons of mass destruction -- the principal public rationale for the war has turned out to be an utter lie.

hmmm....after the first gulf war, didnt saddam use "chemical/biological weapons" to kill fellow iraqi's who were against him? didnt he use these "weapons of mass destruction" on not only men, but women and children too? yes...yes he did. and its amazing how people seem to forget that little tidbit of information.

saddams iraq was a powerful force in that region. and to hold on to that power he made sure to let everyone know that he had these weapons and was not afraid to use them. he played the UN like an old fiddle.

saddam, the dirt bag that he is, is an intelligent man. he knew we were coming. isnt it possible that he had the weapons moved? to syria? what a coincidence that shortly after the invasion of iraq, syria said they wont go forward with their nuclear program. could it be because they new george w bush aint no pussy? most likely. also, i think its pretty damn possible that syria said that so that we wont send inspectors to syria and find these weapons that saddam had moved. hell...saddam sent a truckload of stolen money towards syria. why not some chems too?

maybe we should look at the bigger picture here. greyowl...you're not from the USA are you?

have a nice day
I dont know if anyone has seen the history channel special on the tunnels of Iraq but there was no way of really knowing about WMD. There is a virtual city under Iraq and buckers that survived 2 direct hits from our biggest bunker busters without a scratch.

The bottom line is that after the towers fell..baghdad was having a national parade. Bush said point blank back then that they would be treated like the terrorists as would all who condoned the attacks. I believe the WMD cry was for the benefit of the national community when what it really was was some payback.

I knew on sept 15th that we were going into iraq and Im glad we did. I do think we need to leave and stop spending so much american blood and taxpayers money as the job is done..let them fend for themselves...they are trying to get as many of us before June 30th as they can and it will continue to rise.

Until you suffer an attack of that magnatude on your largest city you are not in a position to comment on the state of how this country defends itself. The majority of these terrorist are coming in from canada.
 
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garyzilla said:
Spetember 11 did a great thing for a America, it for the first time united our country. Now I see that it has worn off because we have boths sides here aruging and divided. This is exactlly what our enemies want. You know what. I really did not like Bill Clinton as president, but I supported him. The reason was simple he was my president. I have know idea what information he has, and what meetings go on in the White House. It is easy to sit back and verbally abuse the president. Try being the president see if any of you would so a better job with the information you have.

You are comparing apples and oranges. I can disagree, as I have from the begining of his administration, with Bush and his agenda. I do not have to support him simply because he weasled his way into office.
How dare you imply I should.
When Republicans call Libritarians their enemy, more so than Democrats, who is drawing the line in the sand? It certainly isnt me. I will stand my ground and voice my opinion until my death. It is my right as an American citizen and I dont give a damn who doesnt like it.

peace.
 
jarz said:
The portion of his comments you quote are taken out of context and they are factual. The man was actually providing facts, which many of the flag wavers have failed to do.

I am American by birth, American by choice, but I have to agree with greyowl's position. I do not see it as anti-american. He is trying, without much success, to open they eyes of the blind and unseeing.
I agree that questioning the actions of our government isnt un-American, in fact, there isnt anything more patriotic.

However, he DIDNT provide facts. He provided inaccuracies. I will quote one of his assertions, with an actual fact and let the board decide:

Greyowl-American troops are being killed, innocent bystanders are being bombed, the economy remains moribund, and gasoline shortages and power outages continue.

Fact-Power generation hit 4,518 megawatts (Oct), exceeding prewar output. What power outages? There is more power being supplied than before we invaded. The net result has been MORE POWER now than with Saddam. Guess what? The power outages argument was wrong!

This is what I mean by anti-American. Greyowl knows the facts, but chooses to spew inaccuracies in order to make America look bad. Plain and simple, and everyone can see it.

greyowl said:
Since your comparison to the situation between Iraq and post-war Germany is incoherent and incomprehensible, I won't bother to refute this point, except to point out the rebuilding of Germany and Japan was an absolute success, and the occupation of Iraq has turned into a shambles.

Well, if you dont understand, then I will explain. After WWII, Japan and Germany had to be rebuilt by the Allies, just as Iraq has to be. Sure Germany and Japan were an absolute success, BUT IT TOOK ALMOST A DECADE! We have been in Iraq, what like 1 year? And you expect it to be rebuilt already? That is my point. Rome wasnt built in a day, and neither will Iraq. Oh, and here is a fact to illustrate my point:

"Iraq, under US lead control, has come further in six months than Germany did in seven years or Japan did in nine years following WWII."

I hope I have been clear now.
 
grisb81 said:
Amen greyowl, haven't you grasped the fact that everyone on this board that supports this fucking senseless war is a conservative and they are backing up every one of Mr. Bush's fuckups.

Actually, I dont support Mr. Bush's domestic policies. I am not going to vote for him and I didnt vote for him in 2000 either. I just happen to agree that his response to 9/11 (as far as foreign policy) was justified and reasonable.
 
Mark, what you are quoting is the Bush administration propaganda. I dont believe a word any one of them say or write.

If.. IF...it is true, then there you go, hard earned American money at work. Either way, people are refusing to see our tax dollars are going to a third world country to better them and to hell with us hard working smucks. Oh and while your at it, why not give it to me and mine in the keester, no thanks, no reach around necessary. Your Welcome Mr. President! Happy to do it becuase Im American.
 
Jarz, you claim the notion of power output in Iraq is propaganda, but no one has stepped to the plate to actuallyt refute it with real information.
 
hmmm....after the first gulf war, didnt saddam use "chemical/biological weapons" to kill fellow iraqi's who were against him? didnt he use these "weapons of mass destruction" on not only men, but women and children too? yes...yes he did. and its amazing how people seem to forget that little tidbit of information.
EXACTLY, Joe! There were and still are WMD somewhere, we just don't know where.

Bush rec'd intelligence that Iraq had WMD and his haters are blaming him for receiving bad info. After it became clear we could not find the WMD, Bill Clinton, who I think is a scumbag, did a noble thing when he admitted that his administration was also under the belief that Iraq had WMD (much to the chagrin of his fellow democrats who will use anything to blast Bush).

Why are our intelligence agencies so bad? Several reasons, all having to do with liberal pussies being in charge for too long. Early in his first term Clinton and the democrat controlled Senate slashed spending on our intelligence. Why is that never mentioned in the national media? But the biggest problem is that in the 70s the fucked up democrats passed legislation that put our intelligence agencies in severe handcuffs. Why? Because these pacifist pussies were afraid that some mean American spook might assasinate some communist dictator as communism was spreading in the Pacific Rim and Central America. Democrats have always turned a blind eye to rogue leaders that gained control of their country by overthrowing their government and killing thousands of innocent citizens.
 
While I can say that I do not agree with everyone, I will say that I definately respect everyone's input. This is why we live in a gret country- because we can do such things as this.

Now Greyowl, the reason for my other post was plain and simple- to show that the media very seldomly shows us any of the good things that go on in the world. It is only the terror and bloodshed.

Now, some of you speak as if you were just working in the white house a couple months ago. The fact is, nobody on this board is the president. No one truly knows what kind of intel they are getting, whether they flat out lied, whether there are/were WMDs...etc etc. I get tired of people claiming that they know what is going on, and that the government is just EVIL EVIL EVIL and that everyone who supports anything are sheeples. Is there no sense of patriotism anymore. Are people truly living such a horrible life here in America, Canada, Europe- where ever, that they need to constantly refut everything? I am not saying that it is wrong to question and wonder and voice your opinion, but because no one is an official in the higher echelons of the government ranks, then no one can TRUTHFULLY argue their points if it has to do with sensitive govt issues.

Now, many of you could possibly be right. Maybe our govt and pres Bush is an evil dictatorship in the making and just wants to make American life as horrible as possible....but even if you may be right, you have no proof. All you have are accusations which you choose to believe.

I am not flaming anyone so dont take anything I say the wrong way. Yes I am military, yes I lean republican, and many of you know that and seem to hold it against me. It seems now adays that if you are the opposite political affiliation of what someone else is, all you can do with each other is argue about who is wrong.

Bottom line- I love America and the freedoms it grants me. No matter who the president is, I will follow his orders and he is deserving of ALL of our respect- I garauntee Bush is smarter than just about everyone on this board.
 
Bob Smith said:
Jarz, you claim the notion of power output in Iraq is propaganda, but no one has stepped to the plate to actuallyt refute it with real information.


Much like most of you who believe and trust in Bush, I cannot provide hardcore documentation that what I say is true, so therefore, I will RE-POST the rest of my statement, which you conveniently omitted.


" If.. IF...it is true, then there you go, hard earned American money at work. Either way, people are refusing to see our tax dollars are going to a third world country to better them and to hell with us hard working smucks. Oh and while your at it, why not give it to me and mine in the keester, no thanks, no reach around necessary. Your Welcome Mr. President! Happy to do it becuase Im American."
 
AirBorne said:
While I can say that I do not agree with everyone, I will say that I definately respect everyone's input. This is why we live in a gret country- because we can do such things as this.

On this I agree with you!!! Amen.
 
jarz said:
Much like most of you who believe and trust in Bush, I cannot provide hardcore documentation that what I say is true, so therefore, I will RE-POST the rest of my statement, which you conveniently omitted.


" If.. IF...it is true, then there you go, hard earned American money at work. Either way, people are refusing to see our tax dollars are going to a third world country to better them and to hell with us hard working smucks. Oh and while your at it, why not give it to me and mine in the keester, no thanks, no reach around necessary. Your Welcome Mr. President! Happy to do it becuase Im American."
You said you didnt believe a word the Bush admin says, so the rest of your statement is irrelevant.

BTW, Im far from a hardcore Bush supporter.
 
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