Seeking advice for future cycle considerations

[hudson98]

If you commit then you stay on forever. To me this 2 years on is just fucking around nothing more and imagine how hard it is to recover mentally from such thing after staying on for couple of years then to feel like complete dead man walking for who knows how long just to maybe recover on paper, not reality...

agree with this

 

[Rido]

agree with this

I have a friend who wants to commit. I will just have that talk with him. I told him I would help him run his bnc. He has had impressive physique changes in 4 months alone.

I just told him I have to do more reading on if he should ever cycle off. I have a feeling he will want to blast and cruise for the rest of his life.

 

[cdoubleu]

On the other hand I can’t help but think that the longer a person if shut down the harder a recovery will be.

If you commit then you stay on forever. To me this 2 years on is just fucking around nothing more and imagine how hard it is to recover mentally from such thing after staying on for couple of years then to feel like complete dead man walking for who knows how long just to maybe recover on paper, not reality...

@Cridi887, @hudson98, @Vanargandar

When I think of the potential for a difficult recovery after a longer shutdown blasting and cruising I don’t usually think about the mental effects. Good to take that into consideration as well.

My idea of 2 cycles over the next 3 years feels more manageable in terms of recovery. But it is just that, feelings on the subject. My goals with that I spoke on earlier won’t put me in a position where I need large trt doses to maintain huge amounts of mass. If I can make a good recovery after a pct and continue naturally from there as long as possible that would be ideal for me.

I know cycling is not the popular option these days, but if I plan to do just 2 cycles before I am 40 and cease does anyone have thoughts that this would be achievable or even worth doing considering my goals?
Aside from my setbacks from a prolonged injury I feel great all around. High energy, high sexdrive, strong erections and regular morning wood still.
Would it even be worth doing a couple of cycles, considering the chance I don’t make a great recovery, and risk losing those things.
I made a full recovery and then some my first go with aas. (Two factors: I was 8 years younger and only on for 4 weeks)

Bloodwork will done again and current prior to any aas.

 

[Rido]

@Cridi887, @hudson98, @Vanargandar

When I think of the potential for a difficult recovery after a longer shutdown blasting and cruising I don’t usually think about the mental effects. Good to take that into consideration as well.

My idea of 2 cycles over the next 3 years feels more manageable in terms of recovery. But it is just that, feelings on the subject. My goals with that I spoke on earlier won’t put me in a position where I need large trt doses to maintain huge amounts of mass. If I can make a good recovery after a pct and continue naturally from there as long as possible that would be ideal for me.

I know cycling is not the popular option these days, but if I plan to do just 2 cycles before I am 40 and cease does anyone have thoughts that this would be achievable or even worth doing considering my goals?
Aside from my setbacks from a prolonged injury I feel great all around. High energy, high sexdrive, strong erections and regular morning wood still.
Would it even be worth doing a couple of cycles, considering the chance I don’t make a great recovery, and risk losing those things.
I made a full recovery and then some my first go with aas. (Two factors: I was 8 years younger and only on for 4 weeks)

Bloodwork will done again and current prior to any aas.

I mean, you are gonna feel like shit. I feel bad after just going from 1g a week to 200mg a week.

Now extend that onto going to near 0 and not having any natural production for a few weeks.

I do not know the extent of damage that can occur from being on a cycle for 4 months vs BNC for 3 years.


I also feel its a staple, most of us would want TRT at 50 on out.

I hate to ask @Type-IIx for his input because we harass him so much.

Maybe he can answer his opinion the damage of BNC on our HPTA system and if someone still wants to maintain testicular function during 10 years of AAS use.

Would it be better to BNC for 2-3 year intervals and allow fully recovery to BNC again? or is the damage the same during every shutdown.

or would it be better to go back to cycling?

Even if there is no evidence, just his opinion

 

[Vanargandar]

@Cridi887, @hudson98, @Vanargandar

I know cycling is not the popular option these days, but if I plan to do just 2 cycles before I am 40 and cease does anyone have thoughts that this would be achievable or even worth doing considering my goals?

This is just my opinion, but it's completely possible you'd do more harm than good blasting 2 or 3 times within a 3 year period. The sex drive and stuff you have going for you now could possibly be worse along with the confounding variable that you'll be getting 3 years older. There's plenty of people you can find on here who tried PCT'ing and ended up worse off, but there's plenty of people that had the opposite happen, essentially, you're rolling the dice with your health and hormones. All that being said, you recovered completely fine before but might not be that lucky next time...or maybe you will, who knows.

One thing I will say is that you'll feel like shit when you come off and it could take months (or more) to return to "normal" again, which if you successfully do you could still end up with lower positive markers than before. I tried coming off in the past and made it 2 months before I just said, "Fuck it." I know no one personally and have only heard of very few people blasting or blasting and cruising for several years+ and NOT ending up on TRT or Enclomiphene mono-therapy.

But I agree with @Cridi887, I'd be curious as to what @Type-IIx has to say.

 

[hudson98]

I have a friend who wants to commit. I will just have that talk with him. I told him I would help him run his bnc. He has had impressive physique changes in 4 months alone.

I just told him I have to do more reading on if he should ever cycle off. I have a feeling he will want to blast and cruise for the rest of his life.

your a nicer man than me. I would tell him terms and to research it himself. just like when people ask me how to train, ill give them 5 minutes of my time but then tell them what to look up, not spoon-feed to them lol

 

[Rido]

your a nicer man than me. I would tell him terms and to research it himself. just like when people ask me how to train, ill give them 5 minutes of my time but then tell them what to look up, not spoon-feed to them lol

We have a funny give and take relationship. We are both swingers and he has brought many good looking girls around to play with. He has also baby sat my dogs and will help out with anything I need.

He is not as scientifically oriented as I am with health markers and what not

 

[hudson98]

We have a funny give and take relationship. We are both swingers and he has brought many good looking girls around to play with. He has also baby sat my dogs and will help out with anything I need.

He is not as scientifically oriented as I am with health markers and what not

still though id say if he is going to run AAS and should build his capacity to research and learn the basics about them, not rely on you. what if something ever happened to you, he'd just not know what to do? that would drive me crazy someone wanting to be spoon fed info

 

[Rido]

still though id say if he is going to run AAS and should build his capacity to research and learn the basics about them, not rely on you. what if something ever happened to you, he'd just not know what to do? that would drive me crazy someone wanting to be spoon fed info

yea thats fair.

He did have a rough episode where he had to get off for 3 months..(in jail).

everything rebooted fine shockingly.

 

[cdoubleu]

I tried coming off in the past and made it 2 months before I just said, "Fuck it." I know no one personally and have only heard of very few people blasting or blasting and cruising for several years+ and NOT ending up on TRT or Enclomiphene mono-therapy.

But I agree with @Cridi887, I'd be curious as to what @Type-IIx has to say.

How long were you on before your attempt to get off?
What your saying affirms my thoughts about how difficult recovery must be after a prolonged shutdown.

Over the next few months I’ll do as much digging as I can on the subject. Then by the time the time tendons feel tough Enough again and I have bf% in a range I’m happy with I will have a lot more info to make a decision at the time. Or possibly that decision will change once I’m on the other side of a cycle or blast.

 

[cdoubleu]

I mean, you are gonna feel like shit. I feel bad after just going from 1g a week to 200mg a week.

Now extend that onto going to near 0 and not having any natural production for a few weeks.

I do not know the extent of damage that can occur from being on a cycle for 4 months vs BNC for 3 years.


I also feel its a staple, most of us would want TRT at 50 on out.

The hope would be to avoid getting to zero and staying there for a few weeks with hcg use on cycle and a properly timed pct.

Feeling like shit for a period of time is expected though. .
If I end up going the cycle route I can be the guinea pig for the near 40 group and pass on some information I gain along the way.

Trt @ 50, probably.

 

[Type-IIx]

I mean, you are gonna feel like shit. I feel bad after just going from 1g a week to 200mg a week.

Now extend that onto going to near 0 and not having any natural production for a few weeks.

I do not know the extent of damage that can occur from being on a cycle for 4 months vs BNC for 3 years.


I also feel its a staple, most of us would want TRT at 50 on out.

I hate to ask @Type-IIx for his input because we harass him so much.

Maybe he can answer his opinion the damage of BNC on our HPTA system and if someone still wants to maintain testicular function during 10 years of AAS use.

Would it be better to BNC for 2-3 year intervals and allow fully recovery to BNC again? or is the damage the same during every shutdown.

or would it be better to go back to cycling?

Even if there is no evidence, just his opinion

Well, about a decade ago, virtually everyone cycled instead of blasting and cruising. Virtually all recovered after what were typically 8 - 12 week cycles in a few weeks. Yes, you do absolutely feel like shit typically - though the use of hCG throughout the cycle would tend to make you feel less terrible during withdrawal/suppression.

I'd say with virtual certainty that 2 cycles (10 week +/-2) can be ran in 3 years time and full recovery can be achieved unless an extreme outlier. Indeed, there will be reversal to base-line of cardiac maladaptations also.

If one is very serious about doing this and maximally retaining LBM gains (very difficult to do) post-cycle, some combined use of hCG & hMG (and where necessary, AI & SERM) during the cycle is optimal.

My preference for the use of hCG is to use intramuscular or subcutaneous doses of 1000 – 2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75 – 150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday). HCG is effectively long-acting LH & hMG (Menopur, Menotropin) provides FSH & LH.

If spermatogenesis & HPG axis functioning is a goal, this protocol should be implemented ASAP, whether on a blast or a cruise.

Now, if on a moderate dose cruise (e.g., 100 +/- 25 mg Test weekly), there may in prone users be some concern for a trend increase in E2 (elevating the E/T ratio) [arguing for AI use]. The following guidance is for the average or typical user (neither sensitive nor resilient to the effects of estrogens nor to the tendency of progestins to sensitize breast tissue to estrogens, etc.).

EXAMPLE 1: Test/Primo 375/400 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday)

EXAMPLE 2: Test/Tren/Deca 500/500/500 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed) + Raloxifene 60 mg eod

EXAMPLE 3: Test 750 mg weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed)

 

[Rido]

Well, about a decade ago, virtually everyone cycled instead of blasting and cruising. Virtually all recovered after what were typically 8 - 12 week cycles in a few weeks. Yes, you do absolutely feel like shit typically - though the use of hCG throughout the cycle would tend to make you feel less terrible during withdrawal/suppression.

I'd say with virtual certainty that 2 cycles (10 week +/-2) can be ran in 3 years time and full recovery can be achieved unless an extreme outlier. Indeed, there will be reversal to base-line of cardiac maladaptations also.

If one is very serious about doing this and maximally retaining LBM gains (very difficult to do) post-cycle, some combined use of hCG & hMG (and where necessary, AI & SERM) during the cycle is optimal.

My preference for the use of hCG is to use intramuscular or subcutaneous doses of 1000 – 2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75 – 150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday). HCG is effectively long-acting LH & hMG (Menopur, Menotropin) provides FSH & LH.

If spermatogenesis & HPG axis functioning is a goal, this protocol should be implemented ASAP, whether on a blast or a cruise.

Now, if on a moderate dose cruise (e.g., 100 +/- 25 mg Test weekly), there may in prone users be some concern for a trend increase in E2 (elevating the E/T ratio) [arguing for AI use]. The following guidance is for the average or typical user (neither sensitive nor resilient to the effects of estrogens nor to the tendency of progestins to sensitize breast tissue to estrogens, etc.).

EXAMPLE 1: Test/Primo 375/400 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday)

EXAMPLE 2: Test/Tren/Deca 500/500/500 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed) + Raloxifene 60 mg eod

EXAMPLE 3: Test 750 mg weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed)

I appreciate this input. Do you think it would be best to wait 1 year to run AAS again as a break for health markers to fully return to normal and hopefully testicular function would be kept in the long run?

I know you quote the cardiac maladaptations from the Harlemm study

 

[Type-IIx]

I appreciate this input. Do you think it would be best to wait 1 year to run AAS again as a break for health markers to fully return to normal and hopefully testicular function would be kept in the long run?

I know you quote the cardiac maladaptations from the Harlemm study

I think retention of LBM is a relevant consideration also (otherwise why would we use AAS to begin with)? Obviously, BnC serves two aims: retention of LBM & improved FEELZ. But it comes at a heavy price: cardiac maladaptations accrue (reversed by 1 year after the start of a 16 week [median] cycle at 904 mg testosterone equivalent [median]) and it becomes far more difficult to reverse suppression of endogenous T secretion (and fertility) over time on exogenous androgen. The risk/reward tradeoff assessment is for the individual to make themselves.

 

[Rido]

I think retention of LBM is a relevant consideration also (otherwise why would we use AAS to begin with)? Obviously, BnC serves two aims: retention of LBM & improved FEELZ. But it comes at a heavy price: cardiac maladaptations accrue (reversed by 1 year after the start of a 16 week [median] cycle at 904 mg testosterone equivalent [median]) and it becomes far more difficult to reverse suppression of endogenous T secretion (and fertility) over time on exogenous androgen. The risk/reward tradeoff assessment is for the individual to make themselves.

Thank you. I think he wants the LBM to be retained as much, but he wants to make sure he has testicular function over time.

This topic also brings a good discussion of full reboots after BnC for plenty of people or going to a point of no return.

Since I was on TRT my testicular function sucked in general which is why I started.


again, always appreciate your input

 

[cdoubleu]

Well, about a decade ago, virtually everyone cycled instead of blasting and cruising. Virtually all recovered after what were typically 8 - 12 week cycles in a few weeks. Yes, you do absolutely feel like shit typically - though the use of hCG throughout the cycle would tend to make you feel less terrible during withdrawal/suppression.

I'd say with virtual certainty that 2 cycles (10 week +/-2) can be ran in 3 years time and full recovery can be achieved unless an extreme outlier. Indeed, there will be reversal to base-line of cardiac maladaptations also.

If one is very serious about doing this and maximally retaining LBM gains (very difficult to do) post-cycle, some combined use of hCG & hMG (and where necessary, AI & SERM) during the cycle is optimal.

My preference for the use of hCG is to use intramuscular or subcutaneous doses of 1000 – 2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75 – 150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday). HCG is effectively long-acting LH & hMG (Menopur, Menotropin) provides FSH & LH.

If spermatogenesis & HPG axis functioning is a goal, this protocol should be implemented ASAP, whether on a blast or a cruise.

Now, if on a moderate dose cruise (e.g., 100 +/- 25 mg Test weekly), there may in prone users be some concern for a trend increase in E2 (elevating the E/T ratio) [arguing for AI use]. The following guidance is for the average or typical user (neither sensitive nor resilient to the effects of estrogens nor to the tendency of progestins to sensitize breast tissue to estrogens, etc.).

EXAMPLE 1: Test/Primo 375/400 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday)

EXAMPLE 2: Test/Tren/Deca 500/500/500 weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed) + Raloxifene 60 mg eod

EXAMPLE 3: Test 750 mg weekly: ASAP introduce 1000–2500 IU hCG applied twice a week (Monday and Friday) and 75–150 IU hMG applied three times a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) + Aromasin 25 mg e3d (titrate as needed)

The largest amount of my knowledge comes from around a decade ago when cycling was much more common as you state. Now after a few months of re-educating myself on the subject I have discovering that b&c is the common practice. I have an open mind to learning new things, especially if there have been new understandings around health benefits of b&c rather than cycling. I can see the pros and cons to each but my thoughts do gravitate towards cycling considering my goals and probably also because of the era where I first learned of aas.

Thanks for the passing on that information.

 

[cdoubleu]

Thank you. I think he wants the LBM to be retained as much, but he wants to make sure he has testicular function over time.

This topic also brings a good discussion of full reboots after BnC for plenty of people or going to a point of no return.

Since I was on TRT my testicular function sucked in general which is why I started.


again, always appreciate your input

As far as full reboots go, I have come across threads on this forum with very polarized results.

It does seem that a lot of guys have had success jumping off for the purpose of conception, while a fewer number have wanted to get off for good and regain natural function.

Success seems high for conception
Success for a full reboot falls closer 50:50
This is all Anecdotal of course and based on my reading of numerous threads on the subject rather than any scientific evidence.

 

[cdoubleu]

One thing I realize I never pointed out in my OP was that I used Hcg as well as an AI back in 2014.
Original plan was to start Hcg at week 3-500iu per week split 2x/week and continue until a few days before PCT
After cutting the cycle short at the end of week 4, if I remember correctly, I blasted 1500iu 2x in the final week before I was ready for my pct.

I executed the same PCT I had planned for my 12 week cycle. This included both Nolva and Clomid for 4 weeks. Of course that was an aggressive pct for a 4 week cycle but I had the meds.
I felt amazing throughout that period of time and continued to make some nice gains as well even as the water dropped off.

Bloods I took around 3 months after pct showed a slight increase in TT compared to pre-cycle bloods.

 

[hudson98]

I can say this, all the enegery you putting into getting your cycle perfect will make a 1-2 percent difference

if you can put 1/10th the research into your training and diet, you will get good results

your focusing on the wrong things

 

[Rido]

I can say this, all the enegery you putting into getting your cycle perfect will make a 1-2 percent difference

if you can put 1/10th the research into your training and diet, you will get good results

your focusing on the wrong things

Agreed. there was an forum idiiot before. his name was ironman580.

"grumble, grumble.. inject AAS, eat, and lift"

despite the stupid shit he would say there is some truth to this statement lol