Source QC and C of A (do you have one?)

[readalot]

Certificates of Analysis: Don’t Trust, Verify

Taking vendor product data at face value puts pharmaceutical manufacturers and their supply chain partners at risk.

www.pharmtech.com

Good read:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/05/12/722216512/bottle-of-lies-exposes-the-dark-side-of-the-generic-drug-boom

 

[Dickwang]

Some thoughts/suggestions for discussion after looking around here.

Realistic, overkill, get what you pay for, don't care?

Would like to hear members' thoughts, counterpoints, etc. especially on cost vs quality. The path to quality is known. Will people pay or too much for UGL customers?

=======

Every Source should provide with each shipment ...

1. 3rd party C of A on finished product batch specific to that shipment
- endotoxin screen
- metals with ICP
- purity(ies) / concentration(s) using hplc plus ms (or gcms)

2. C of A for bulk api for each batch (hplc plus ms or gcms) upon request.

Of course Sources would do themselves a big favor if they screened for impurities as well as purity on the APIs (aka raws) upfront so no surprises on the finished batches. First things first.

There should never be any surprises with a batch. Completely addressable.

And please clean up the product listings...

1. mg is not a unit for API concentration. Use mg/ml.

If I see 200 mg listed and later on a mention that it is a 10 ml vial I am going to assume your stuff is drastically underdosed. That should be clear to you to.

Best practice is listing the API concentration plus the total API per total vial volume.

Example: 300 mg/ml (3000 mg per 10 ml)

2. Denote volumes (ml) for finished vials. People don't want to guess.


3. List the oil used for injectables and also the excipients/preservatives used plus their concentrations.

What is this deal with not disclosing what is in the vial? You don't know, or is it a trade secret lol? Come on.

4. Spend at least as much time assuring your customer you know basic chemistry as you spend on the beautiful packaging design and gimmicks/marketing.

Be the change.

======

Is this a template Meso should endorse for Sources? Even daylighting the concepts with a suggested template would go a long way to educate consumer and further harm reduction initiative IMO.

Wish I could downvote this peace of crap question more than once….who would ever think of posting such a dumb idea … go back to Reddit you loser… you only joined in October and you already know this much? Who are you? bigboost22 hiding in disguise? Get a job loser….



Jk bud. But I finally made my way over here from the link you shared and saw you got roasted too lol. Your idea wasn’t that bad though….

Hope you’re having a good Christmas

 

[readalot]

Wish I could downvote this peace of crap question more than once….who would ever think of posting such a dumb idea … go back to Reddit you loser… you only joined in October and you already know this much? Who are you? bigboost22 hiding in disguise? Get a job loser….



Jk bud. But I finally made my way over here from the link you shared and saw you got roasted too lol. Your idea wasn’t that bad though….

Hope you’re having a good Christmas

Liska and Rido love me. That is all that matters.

Never been on reddit. Do have a few posts at ExcelMale and TNation.

You too Brother DW!

 

[Dickwang]

Liska and Rido love me. That is all that matters.

Never been on reddit. Do have a few posts at ExcelMale and TNation.

You too Brother DW!

How long does it take to get reaction powers in the underground… I can’t react only comment.

 

[readalot]

How long does it take to get reaction powers in the underground… I can’t react only comment.

Perhaps one of the vets can answer. Must be a seniority perk for higher rank or some other attribute. I don't have that option either. My 10k posts and likes on those other sites does me no good here. Starting from scratch. A clown as Rido says haha.

I like your can do attitude and goal orientation.

Edit: wait a minute I just noticed I do have it now. So must he a few hundred posts and 200 or so likes.

Merry Christmas gift from Millard. Cool.

 

[Dickwang]

Perhaps one of the vets can answer. Must be a seniority perk for higher rank or some other attribute. I don't have that option either. My 10k posts and likes on those other sites does me no good here. Starting from scratch. A clown as Rido says haha.

I like your can do attitude and goal orientation.

Edit: wait a minute I just noticed I do have it now. So must he a few hundred posts and 200 or so likes.

That goes to show how powerful those dislikes are… they really influence the way the board sees something as a whole, huh?

only the higher power has access to them too?must be a great way to control the people ….

 

[Dickwang]

Edit: wait a minute I just noticed I do have it now. So must he a few hundred posts and 200 or so likes.

I’m sure you’ll know the exact minute I get mine then… il make it very well known…

My thumbs will be tired from all the downvotes I unleash on this place ….

 

[Millard]

There are large compounding pharmacies in US who refuse to share C of A for APIs and ingredient listing with amounts for specific batches with customers. To me that is a big reg flag.

The line between compounding pharmacies and UGL seems to blur more each day. Take the current semaglutide situation. Where do you think compounders are sourcing semaglutide? I am pretty sure it isn't from Novo.

I agree with you on the compounding pharmacies.

But you weren't talking about regulating compounding pharmacies in your original post. You were talking about regulating UGL AAS products made/sold in the unregulated black market.

It's quite a different issue when you proposing the force of the U.S. federal government behind the proposal vs. the collective agreement of anonymous consumers.

Market forces are important too.

 

[Millard]

For the record I will respectful disagree with @Millard on above. Once the scope of tests is properly defined then it is as simple as sending the analytical lab extra sample as needed (samples are being sent routinely anyway for APi purity). Of course it would helpful to validate this process with multiple analytical labs (have two independent labs tell you the same thing ). Currently that is a work in progress.

There may be some proof of method developement/scoping work we would need to do with @janoshik (as example) in identifying utility of gcms vs hr-lcms for impurity profiling.

What specifically do you disagree with?

Is it that I think it is impractical and unrealistic to expect the realization of this for every AAS-related product sold by UGL sources on the black market at this time?

Is it that I am doubtful that most consumers will pay what could be significantly higher prices?

I don't think it is practical/realistic for many reasons, the least of which is market forces.

OR

Is it that you think I don't want more testing by UGL sources?

Because I most certainly do want to see more comprehensive testing.

I would love to see same US government regulations/testing applied to illicit UGL manufacturing as legal pharmaceutical manufacturing. Well, that's just not going to happen.

That doesn't mean UGL consumers should do nothing. I've strongly advocated more product testing for years.

I think the community has make great progress in requiring at least some analytical testing by UGLs. Consumers primarily want to know how much active ingredient they are getting.

Most UGLs perform this type of analytical testing of select products. I think it is realistic and practical to pressure these UGL to perform this type of testing on every batch of every product. We're not there yet, the community pressure is strong and the trend is looking good.

I applaud your efforts to compel the community to pressure UGL sources/manufacturers to perform more testing.

What I would enjoy seeing is the specific costs of the additional testing your are recommending in your proposal. Obviously, multiplying this figure by the number of unique items produced by the UGL. And if you want testing from multiple analytical labs, then multiply the costs by that number too.

Only then can we begin to see how realistic/practical this proposal would be.

 

[readalot]

What specifically do you disagree with?

Is it that I think it is impractical and unrealistic to expect the realization of this for every AAS-related product sold by UGL sources on the black market at this time?

Is it that I am doubtful that most consumers will pay what could be significantly higher prices?

I don't think it is practical/realistic for many reasons, the least of which is market forces.

OR

Is it that you think I don't want more testing by UGL sources?

Because I most certainly do want to see more comprehensive testing.

I would love to see same US government regulations/testing applied to illicit UGL manufacturing as legal pharmaceutical manufacturing. Well, that's just not going to happen.

That doesn't mean UGL consumers should do nothing. I've strongly advocated more product testing for years.

I think the community has make great progress in requiring at least some analytical testing by UGLs. Consumers primarily want to know how much active ingredient they are getting.

Most UGLs perform this type of analytical testing of select products. I think it is realistic and practical to pressure these UGL to perform this type of testing on every batch of every product. We're not there yet, the community pressure is strong and the trend is looking good.

I applaud your efforts to compel the community to pressure UGL sources/manufacturers to perform more testing.

What I would enjoy seeing is the specific costs of the additional testing your are recommending in your proposal. Obviously, multiplying this figure by the number of unique items produced by the UGL. And if you want testing from multiple analytical labs, then multiply the costs by that number too.

Only then can we begin to see how realistic/practical this proposal would be.

Thanks for your comments. I know you want more testing. That is not it.

I disagree that it is impractical and unrealistic to test for heavy metals and perform non targeted impurity analysis plus basic endotoxin screen for each finished batch. My hypothesis is that it is realistic and practical. I want to make it part of the cost of doing business. Will the customer agree as they become educated with new data?

Initially the impurity work is going to take some iteration as I don't think we have ever seen HR-LCMS applied to the latter analysis for UGL. GCMS yes. But as Jano has stated GCMS is limited by impurity boiling point.

Th consumer will develop some basic literacy as these test cases become available. What are the impurities? Free testosterone/AAS? Unbound carboxylic acid? Side reaction products, Catalyst? What are the implications?

Perhaps we start with one product like Test ester as a test case.

I understand your point on cost and hence why I am attempting to leverage one of the sources here to develop a proposal since they graciously offered to run the tests. A validation and scoping exercise if you will. Is it $1000 per batch of finished product? $2000? How many units of finished product per batch? 1000? 2000? I would think the sources with largest capacity will have an advantage since the total additional product testing cost per batch will be spread over their batch size.

Will this incremental cost come down as additional testing becomes more prevalent? With these data we can calculate the extra cost per unit that would be passed on to the customer. I like to break it down in terms of total monthly cost per AAS product offered and incremental cost per unit (e.g., $2 additional cost per vial).

And with these data we can assess whether it is realistic that the customer will pay.

The rub is having a competitive marketplace for accurate / precise testing. I don't see where that is really the case yet. Yet you have to start somewhere as you know well. Thanks again for your feedback.

 

[SkankHunt]

I’m all for more testing but let’s take a deeper look into this situation.

I know you’ve been on boards for a while but I’m not sure you understand how some of these UGLs work. Have you seen the photos of some of these labs that have been busted? There was a guy brewing in a tent with a box fan for ventilation. Another guy was brewing Tren in gallon milk jugs while grilling steaks. Hell, look at the most recent bust in Poland. He was storing plastic jugs of oils under his bathroom sink. Do you really think a lab testing showing 2% impurities is going to deter someone from ordering?

I’m not knocking your idea at all but the UGL is a different market. There’s guys here buying bottles of test for $8-12 dollars. Vials that have shown to have floaters on them but they’re still begging for more.

There’s 2 types of people on Meso. Guys who run Pharma and guys who run UGL. The guys running UGL know what they’re paying for. If they were concerned about heavy metals or impurities they’d run pharma. Shit 90% of the guys on here don’t even test their own gear.

 

[readalot]

I’m all for more testing but let’s take a deeper look into this situation.

I know you’ve been on boards for a while but I’m not sure you understand how some of these UGLs work. Have you seen the photos of some of these labs that have been busted? There was a guy brewing in a tent with a box fan for ventilation. Another guy was brewing Tren in gallon milk jugs while grilling steaks. Hell, look at the most recent bust in Poland. He was storing plastic jugs of oils under his bathroom sink. Do you really think a lab testing showing 2% impurities is going to deter someone from ordering?

I’m not knocking your idea at all but the UGL is a different market. There’s guys here buying bottles of test for $8-12 dollars. Vials that have shown to have floaters on them but they’re still begging for more.

There’s 2 types of people on Meso. Guys who run Pharma and guys who run UGL. The guys running UGL know what they’re paying for. If they were concerned about heavy metals or impurities they’d run pharma. Shit 90% of the guys on here don’t even test their own gear.

Love your comments. Seriously. Which leads me to ask the following question?


Where does that leave the poor chap that wants quality gear and wants to run primo for instance. Sad to say there is no Pharma / compounded Pharma methenolone available for instance in US. Sad to say it is a strange artifact of FDA regulations. I guess this person could try to source Pharma product from overseas by trusting some UGL source. But then we are back to square one with the trust but verify to ensure it isn't shit counterfeit.

Hell I am losing confidence even in compounding pharmacies by the day. There are some that are definitely taking the gray zone approach.


So my hypothesis is there is a tier between UGL and Pharma that is ripe to picked. Call it UGL+ or UGL Platinum or whatever. In the meantime if this testing I am proposing gets done we should learn something in the process.


Thanks again! And yes I am familiar with how some UGLs operate. I am aiming for a higher standard and want the receipts.

 

[SkankHunt]

Sad to say there is no Pharma / compounded Pharma methenolone available for instance in US

Agree. Which is why some dudes pay $15-20 per amp of Bayer Rimos from Turkey… or guys will paying $90 for a 200mg/10ml vial lol.

It’s nice that labs are actually posting some photos of their equipment and setups. I also thinks it’s great Millard made it a requirement for all new sources to post lab tests before coming to Meso. Years ago on Eroids we relied on Chinese HPLC reports that always showed 99% purity.

 

[readalot]

Agree. Which is why some dudes pay $15-20 per amp of Bayer Rimos from Turkey… or guys will paying $90 for a 200mg/10ml vial lol.

It’s nice that labs are actually posting some photos of their equipment and setups. I also thinks it’s great Millard made it a requirement for all new sources to post lab tests before coming to Meso. Years ago on Eroids we relied on Chinese HPLC reports that always showed 99% purity.

And to be fair this (not providing C of A, batch data, impurity testing, etc) isn't just a UGL issue. One of my go to tests with compounders is to ask them the exact same questions I pose above. It is a great litmus test for their integrity. The scummy ones hide behind "IP concerns" or Competitive Intel if I ask them for their C of A for USP API they supposedly received from FDA inspected supplier. Some won't even disclose the actual ingredients in the medication they sent me. Fancy that. "Trade secret" LOL. The semaglutide offering currently from compounders is another glaring example. There is ZERO chance that API coming from an FDA inspected site.

But I contact a legit Pharma manufacturer and ask for a batch C of A....guess what? No problem at all. Hence, I think a UGL+/++ model will really benefit Subscribers who go to the trouble. I am sure there are plenty of discriminating anabolic enthusiasts out there willing to pay extra to those who put in the work. How many and how much? I am hopeful we will find out.

 

[SkankHunt]

And to be fair this (not providing C of A, batch data, impurity testing, etc) isn't just a UGL issue. One of my go to tests with compounders is to ask them the exact same questions I pose above. It is a great litmus test for their integrity. The scummy ones hide behind "IP concerns" or Competitive Intel if I ask them for their C of A for USP API they supposedly received from FDA inspected supplier. Some won't even disclose the actual ingredients in the medication they sent me. Fancy that. "Trade secret" LOL. The semaglutide offering currently from compounders is another glaring example. There is ZERO chance that API coming from an FDA inspected site.

But I contact a legit Pharma manufacturer and ask for a batch C of A....guess what? No problem at all. Hence, I think a UGL+/++ model will really benefit Subscribers who go to the trouble. I am sure there are plenty of discriminating anabolic enthusiasts out there willing to pay extra to those who put in the work. How many and how much? I am hopeful we will find out.

Pharma companies are great. I’ve sent them pictures of their products I’ve seen on here and they’ll confirm if they’re authentic or not. Safe to say there’s a lot of counterfeit Pharma amps being sold by some fellas here.

 

[readalot]

Safe to say there’s a lot of counterfeit Pharma amps being sold by some fellas here.

And we are back to the methenolone example above. Thanks again for your comments. My intention is constructive and I very much appreciate your constructive comments. I was not a fan of the bathtub GHB in the 90s and I ain't going to change course now. Stubborn. Change requires actions which initially appear unreasonable. History will be the judge. But like I said everyone will learn something in the process regardless.

So I am not sure why all the hate unless it really just is trauma bonding as I guessed in another thread. Some users seem so emotionally vested in their sources.

 

[Millard]

I disagree that it is impractical and unrealistic to test for heavy metals and perform non targeted impurity analysis plus basic endotoxin screen for each finished batch. My hypothesis is that it is realistic and practical. I want to make it part of the cost of doing business. Will the customer agree as they become educated with new data?

I also think it is realistic and practical to test for heavy metals and microbial contamination by anyone who wishes to spend the money.

I am far from convinced that it is realistic to expect market forces to make it an obligatory cost of doing business for UGL enterprises... at this point in time.

I would think that any reasonable consumer of black market injectable AAS would want these two tests added to the basic quantitative analysis of active ingredients as a minimum standard for harm reduction.

In actuality, I don't think this is reflective of current consumer demand. The consumer pushback and even hostility against your proposal seems really strange and not at all what you would expect on a harm reduction forum.

So many people explicitly say they don't care if UGLs perform these tests. For that matter, there have been threads where consumers argue that UGL AAS are just as good or better than pharmaceutical AAS. This seems strange. Does this sentiment represent the majority of AAS UGL consumers?

I don't know. But it seems like it is a low priority among most consumers especially when compared to the demand for analyses of active ingredients.

The first step is to examine why is this the case?

You've seen a few people suggest that this type of testing is searching for a problem that doesn't exist. That is, heavy metal / microbiological contamination is exceedingly rare.

There is some support for this. Other than the spot testing in 2010 by Llewellyn / Tober, I haven't seen much evidence of heavy metal contamination in AAS.

As far as microbiological contamination, spot testing over the years hasn't found this to be an issue probably due to use of benzyl alcohol, etc commonly used in injectable AAS.

So, there's that. How big a problem does it have to be before consumers demand more testing in androgen black markets?

For what it is worth, no consumer needs to wait for UGLs to perform these tests, these type of tests are currently available to anyone who wants to pay for the extra assurance.

Just so you know, I'd love to live in a world where, first and foremost, I could buy all AAS from a regulated and legal source. In the absence of that, a world where UGLs conform to rigorous and extensive content/heavy metal/microbial testing as an expected cost of doing business would be next best.

I don't think it's a realistic expectation at the moment. But it would be cool if it happened down the road.

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw

 

[Millard]

Pharma companies are great. I’ve sent them pictures of their products I’ve seen on here and they’ll confirm if they’re authentic or not. Safe to say there’s a lot of counterfeit Pharma amps being sold by some fellas here.

This is great. You should post more about this. How you would recommend consumers take the initiative and do this themselves? Specifically, what have you found to be the best and most productive way to contact pharmaceutical companies for information about suspected counterfeit pharma products.

 

[SkankHunt]

This is great. You should post more about this. How you would recommend consumers take the initiative and do this themselves? Specifically, what have you found to be the best and most productive way to contact pharmaceutical companies for information about suspected counterfeit pharma products.

The best thing they can do it take pictures and send an email. More than likely you’ll get a response. I just say I was in Turkey/Bulgaria/Iran etc. and picked these up in a pharmacy, are they authentic? I had an old email from Aspen when I sent them pictures of the Karachis with newer exp dates and they confirmed they stopped making that style years ago. That email is from my sourcing account which is closed so I’ll try to find a copy. Below is an email I shot to PanPharma about the counterfeit RotexMedica some sources are offering here.
Once I gave them the batch/exp date they confirmed they are indeed replicas.

It’s getting even more difficult now as some of these replicas actually contain testosterone. Enough to shut you down and make you believe it’s an authentic product. See lab test below for Karachi Sustanon.



They stopped production of these years ago before selling off the rights to Aspen. So once I saw the newer expiration date I knew it was a replica.

My best advice would be don’t trust guys who say “it’s from the pharmacy don’t worry”. Test everything.

 

[laclark89]

I like ur ideas they do go hand and hand with harm reduction. ur a smart dude, I'm starting to think u have some type of stake in a heavy metal testing operation lol.

This is 2023 we are surrounded by heavy metals, in our food air water u name it.
it's in our water and kids baby food? Untill gear is legalized it's not gana happen. Like I read above 90% of us ugl users dont care.

For the 10percent if they are worried that much can go once or twice a year and check there levels.

My dad was poisoned or had high metal levels multiple times. He grew up being poisoned with chromium 6 "part of the Erin brockovich thing" later went to work for dow chemical "lead production" and had to be reassigned other duties multiple times because his levels were too high (they tested often) . I dont think any of that caused him real permanent damage, call em lucky. At 70 he got lung cancer after 50 years of smoking cigarettes.