Water Retention Caused by Testosterone May Have Nothing to Do with Estradiol

[VenomYo]

Water Retention Caused by Testosterone May Have Nothing to Do with Estradiol

I get a lot of emails from men on testosterone replacement therapy (and/or HCG) that feel they have water retention (some with ankle swelling) and they are puzzled that their estradiol is low or below 35 micrograms/ml. They may have tried anastrozole treatment without any success in decreasing...

www.excelmale.com

"I get a lot of emails from men on testosterone replacement therapy (and/or HCG) that feel they have water retention (some with ankle swelling) and they are puzzled that their estradiol is low or below 35 micrograms/ml. They may have tried anastrozole treatment without any success in decreasing water retention.

This study was pointed out in a previous article written by Patrick Arnold.

"There is an enzyme that is localized primarily in the kidneys whose function is to protect the kidneys from circulating cortisol. The kidneys have receptors called mineralcorticoid receptors (MR's) which are meant to bind to specific adrenal hormones (called mineralcorticoids) in the body such as aldosterone. The result of this binding is a signal to increase sodium and water retention in the body, while stimulating the excretion of potassium. This is an important mechanism to maintain fluid and electrolyte balance in the body.

A problem exists though in that cortisol can also bind activate these receptors. Cortisol is a widely circulating hormone and serves a multitude of functions throughout the body. However its intended biological functions do not include mineralcorticoid action in the kidneys, so to prevent this from happening the kidneys are rich in the enzyme 11b-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 2 (11b-HSD2). This enzyme deactivates cortisol by converting it into cortisone before it can bind to the renal MRs."

Testosterone and anabolic steroids have been shown to inhibit 11b-HSD2.

Here's how it works: throughout the course of the day, the adrenal gland releases the hormone cortisol, either due to normal circadian (daily) and ultradian (hourly) rhythms or in reaction to stress. Cortisol is an important stress hormone, but many of its effects, while good in a fight-or-flight scenario, are bad over time in terms of diabetes and obesity: cortisol increases glucose production and release in the liver; increases appetite in anticipation of any necessary reaction to the stress-causing situation; and alters metabolic processing such that fat is preferentially stored in the central abdominal region. So, for diabetics, this means stored glucose directly increases blood sugar, new calories are ingested and increase both blood sugar and weight, and, to top it all off, the new weight tends to be the “bad,” visceral, disease-causing weight.

There are a couple of therapeutically important pit-stops for cortisol throughout this process, though; the active hormone cortisol can be converted in the kidney, colon, and some other tissues into the inactive molecule cortisone. The enzyme 11 beta-HSD2 aids this conversion, and allows cortisol to be stored out of the bloodstream.


Inhibiting 11b-HSD 2 can cause glucocorticoid-mediated MR activation, potassium excretion, sodium and water retention, and increased blood pressure.
Full Paper: Anabolic Androgenic Steroid Fluoxymesterone Inhibits 11β-Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase 2–Dependent Glucocorticoid Inactivation

 

[VenomYo]

Artichoke protects kidneys against creatine

Do you want to use creatine, but are you worried about the effect on your kidneys? Or are you worried that creatine will lead to water retention? A supplement containing artichoke or Cynara scolymus may help. An article in a German nutrition journal that is new to us, Deutsche...

www.ergo-log.com

"The creatine supplement also interfered with the rats' hormone balance. Their aldosterone concentration rose. Aldosterone is a steroid hormone that causes the kidneys to retain more salt and water and to excrete more potassium."



"Aldosterone therefore also causes blood pressure to rise. [Hmmm… Some people swear they retain water when they take creatine, and that they get a moon face. Is that because creatine increases the production of aldosterone?]"

 

[VenomYo]

@Type-IIx do you have a defacto "bloat-cure" for me, type2

 

[PeterBond]

The IC50 for testosterone was 1370 nM. If the same holds true in vivo in humans, this is completely irrelevant for TRT.

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx do you have a defacto "bloat-cure" for me, type2

Exactly as Peter Bond said, I don't see the nexus between testosterone and 11β-HSD2.

I do believe modulation of glucocorticoids is a primary hypertrophic mechanism of androgens (along with increased mIGF-I activity, aromatization, and ligand dependent- and independent- AR action that exert classical mRNA-mediated protein synthesis as well as rapid nongenomic action). Testosterone just doesn't alter 11β-hydroxylase activity significantly. If anything, T has a tendency (insignificant; trend) to lower serum cortisol.

I think that ostensible fluid retention from TRT or "TRT plus/sports TRT" dosages is primarily attributable to aromatization or nutrition or the combination thereof, if it's even a significant occurrence attributable to test at all.

As a suggestion for reduction of bloat from AAS, I suggest changing the compounds or lowering the dosages. The aromatizable androgens (MENT, Test, Deca, Dbol) seem to be the most significant in promoting bloat. Perhaps secondary to aromatization (I'm working on this conceptually) as a causal factor in promoting bloat are the compounds that increase corticosteroid-binding globulin like Anadrol and Dbol. The "estrogen-like" effects on corticosteroid-binding globulin from these androgens may arise from their extensive conjugated unsaturated A rings. The RAS is important, but it's nigh impossible to rank order individual AAS in terms of potency for activation, and it's folly to assert that everyone should take an ARB if using androgens.

 

[D Rogers]

I’ll add my own anecdotal experience to the thread. I experience a fair amount of water retention on my cruise dose of 200mg test, most noticeable in my face. This is with estrogen controlled to levels of 32-38 on my lab scale (top/just beyond normal range) with an AI.

When I added an everyday ARB at a modest dose (for cardioprotection), I saw no change in water retention.

I later experimented with adding a low dose MCRA, and this noticeably reduced my bloat such that my face sharpened up. Others in my life noticed this and commented. This seems to support the author’s hypothesis, but I don’t know I’d run an MCRA year round just to cut some bloat and look sharper.

 

[Trenbologna]

Exactly as Peter Bond said, I don't see the nexus between testosterone and 11β-HSD2.

I do believe modulation of glucocorticoids is a primary hypertrophic mechanism of androgens (along with increased mIGF-I activity, aromatization, and ligand dependent- and independent- AR action that exert classical mRNA-mediated protein synthesis as well as rapid nongenomic action). Testosterone just doesn't alter 11β-hydroxylase activity significantly. If anything, T has a tendency (insignificant; trend) to lower serum cortisol.

I think that ostensible fluid retention from TRT or "TRT plus/sports TRT" dosages is primarily attributable to aromatization or nutrition or the combination thereof, if it's even a significant occurrence attributable to test at all.

As a suggestion for reduction of bloat from AAS, I suggest changing the compounds or lowering the dosages. The aromatizable androgens (MENT, Test, Deca, Dbol) seem to be the most significant in promoting bloat. Perhaps secondary to aromatization (I'm working on this conceptually) as a causal factor in promoting bloat are the compounds that increase corticosteroid-binding globulin like Anadrol and Dbol. The "estrogen-like" effects on corticosteroid-binding globulin from these androgens may arise from their extensive conjugated unsaturated A rings.

I’ll add my own anecdotal experience to the thread. I experience a fair amount of water retention on my cruise dose of 200mg test, most noticeable in my face. This is with estrogen controlled to levels of 32-38 on my lab scale (top/just beyond normal range) with an AI.

When I added an everyday ARB at a modest dose (for cardioprotection), I saw no change in water retention.

I later experimented with adding a low dose MCRA, and this noticeably reduced my bloat such that my face sharpened up. Others in my life noticed this and commented. This seems to support the author’s hypothesis, but I don’t know I’d run an MCRA year round just to cut some bloat and look sharper.

Sorry what's MCRA?

 

[Trenbologna]

Sorry what's MCRA?

 

[VenomYo]

I’ll add my own anecdotal experience to the thread. I experience a fair amount of water retention on my cruise dose of 200mg test, most noticeable in my face. This is with estrogen controlled to levels of 32-38 on my lab scale (top/just beyond normal range) with an AI.

When I added an everyday ARB at a modest dose (for cardioprotection), I saw no change in water retention.

I later experimented with adding a low dose MCRA, and this noticeably reduced my bloat such that my face sharpened up. Others in my life noticed this and commented. This seems to support the author’s hypothesis, but I don’t know I’d run an MCRA year round just to cut some bloat and look sharper.

"Aldosterone receptor antagonists (also called an antimineralocorticoid, MCRA, and sometimes MRA) are a class of drugs which block the effects of aldosterone. Aldosterone is the main mineralocorticoid hormone in the body and is produced in the adrenal cortex of the adrenal gland."

@Trenbologna

Bingo Aldosterone is why we bloat just as theorized. I knew I wasn't crazy for thinking that my arimidex did absolutely nothing to relief bloat, because it does absolutely nothing. Its all about aldosterone not estrogen

I'll add that Cialis lowers blood pressure and in combination with Ashwagandha(unknown effect) it also reduces steroid bloat considerably, got that tip from @David44 and i've been testing it, it works. Only downside is ashwagandhas longterm effect on the thyroid(downregulation of thyroid stimulating hormone) and kidney toxicity ontop of that

Ai's are useless for controlling water retention/bloat, shame on anyone who spewed that false shit on the forums for the past 20 years. roiders really are lower iq on average. how is it possible for a collective roided community to not notice that their AI does not help control their bloat, how can they spew the same lies over and over for 20 years. seriously ban anyone who says AI helps with water bloat, ill report anyone who says it from now on. I can literally pop 6mg of legit arimidex on a 350mg Test cycle and not drop an ounce of water, yet somehow when I type into google "does Ai help with water bloat on steroids" i'll get 3 million results back telling me that yes it does help. Fucking stupid.

 

[Type-IIx]

"Aldosterone receptor antagonists (also called an antimineralocorticoid, MCRA, and sometimes MRA) are a class of drugs which block the effects of aldosterone. Aldosterone is the main mineralocorticoid hormone in the body and is produced in the adrenal cortex of the adrenal gland."

@Trenbologna

Bingo Aldosterone is why we bloat just as theorized. I knew I wasn't crazy for thinking that my arimidex did absolutely nothing to relief bloat, because it does absolutely nothing. Its all about aldosterone not estrogen

I'll add that Cialis lowers blood pressure and in combination with Ashwagandha(unknown effect) it also reduces steroid bloat considerably, got that tip from @David44 and i've been testing it, it works. Only downside is ashwagandhas longterm effect on the thyroid(downregulation of thyroid stimulating hormone) and kidney toxicity ontop of that

Ai's are useless for controlling water retention/bloat, shame on anyone who spewed that false shit on the forums for the past 20 years. roiders really are lower iq on average. how is it possible for a collective roided community to not notice that their AI does not help control their bloat, how can they spew the same lies over and over for 20 years. seriously ban anyone who says AI helps with water bloat, ill report anyone who says it from now on. I can literally pop 6mg of legit arimidex on a 350mg Test cycle and not drop an ounce of water, yet somehow when I type into google "does Ai help with water bloat on steroids" i'll get 3 million results back telling me that yes it does help. Fucking stupid.

Bro, please explain how your view of androgen-induced bloat then squares with your statements on "Tren moonface" and the fact that tren/methyltrienolone are potent MR antagonists.

I think you need to start looking at diet if you're dealing with bloat so often, on tren of all things.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

I think it’s 90% diet related and 10% hormone related.

I noticed pinning eod on prop that I was way tighter compared to running E. Again this could have been diet related too as I was much more seasoned running prop than my first cycle of E. I let me e2 run 40s-50s on cycle. DIDNT notice much of a change in water retention when I accidentally crashed my e2.

When my e2 was 100 I noticed bloat but. Sounds like you can add potassium to your diet to negate the potassium secretion or am I wrong and it will continue to just get rid of it?

I’d try pinning E eod to see what happens but can’t be asked to be a pin cushion. Maybe when I’m cruising and using slin pins if I’m lean enough

 

[VenomYo]

Bro, please explain how your view of androgen-induced bloat then squares with your statements on "Tren moonface" and the fact that tren/methyltrienolone are potent MR antagonists.

I think you need to start looking at diet if you're dealing with bloat so often, on tren of all things.

tren doesnt cause moonface, mtren does, but that could be because of kidney/liver toxicity.

we dont have to agree because theres no conclusive evidence either way, but I can tank my estrogen and hold just as much as water as I do when it's riding in the high 300's on a 1250mg test cycle with no AI. Makes no difference to me. and it doesnt matter whether or not mtren is the most potent MR antagonist on planet earth, its so toxic thats its gonna bloat you regardless, try it, see for yourself

this isnt even a debate, everyone here has tried to mitigate their bloat by popping AI's with little to no succes, we all know it, we've all tried it. Only thing that seems to work is managing blood pressure and diuretics

 

[VenomYo]

I think it’s 90% diet related and 10% hormone related.

I noticed pinning eod on prop that I was way tighter compared to running E. Again this could have been diet related too as I was much more seasoned running prop than my first cycle of E. I let me e2 run 40s-50s on cycle. DIDNT notice much of a change in water retention when I accidentally crashed my e2.

When my e2 was 100 I noticed bloat but. Sounds like you can add potassium to your diet to negate the potassium secretion or am I wrong and it will continue to just get rid of it?

I’d try pinning E eod to see what happens but can’t be asked to be a pin cushion. Maybe when I’m cruising and using slin pins if I’m lean enough

its not diet, its not sodium, i dont eat any sodium and i still hold water like a water fountain. Arimidex does nada to fix it, only somewhat succesful approach i've had so far is cialis and ashwagandha, which in practice works by far stimulating the thyroid, lowering blood pressure and exerts diuretic properties(through ashwagandha)

I'll tell you something else aswell, androgen bloat has so little to do with diet and sodium that you can go mega dose potassium and totally eliminate sodium from your diet, and it wont make a difference whatsoever. The bloat isnt estrogen related or diet related, its purely androgen induced/blood pressure induced through the angiotensin pathway. Then you might say, well sodium intake is part of diet surely, so sodium will make you hold water thus raising blood pressure, sure it will but its a non factor since it doesnt tip the scale either way unless you mega dose sodium, which you wont. And since potassium makes no difference either, that means the sodium potassium relationship plays a very minor role in water AAS induced water retention

I'm sitting here with Vitality potassium citrate caps the only potassium supplement in europe that has more than the regulated 99mg pr cap, and trust me ive tried megadosing it while almost completely eliminating sodium from my diet. It made no difference whatsoever. Potassium is a waste of time

 

[TRENdy07]

My legs seem to swell less when I use prop over cyp. I’ve recently found that dosing 10mg nolva has also cut down on my sock lines as well. Idk why. Just an observation

 

[VenomYo]

My legs seem to swell less when I use prop over cyp. I’ve recently found that dosing 10mg nolva has also cut down on my sock lines as well. Idk why. Just an observation

youre not the first to say that, but anyone whose said it before got bashed hard for it. One thing is for certain arimidex does NOTHING for water retention, so might aswell try some nolva

 

[Type-IIx]

tren doesnt cause moonface, mtren does, but that could be because of kidney/liver toxicity.

we dont have to agree because theres no conclusive evidence either way, but I can tank my estrogen and hold just as much as water as I do when it's riding in the high 300's on a 1250mg test cycle with no AI. Makes no difference to me. and it doesnt matter whether or not mtren is the most potent MR antagonist on planet earth, its so toxic thats its gonna bloat you regardless, try it, see for yourself

this isnt even a debate, everyone here has tried to mitigate their bloat by popping AI's with little to no succes, we all know it, we've all tried it. Only thing that seems to work is managing blood pressure and diuretics

OK, so long as we're on the same page with respect to tren not causing bloat (and I mention methyltrienolone only because the data showing its MR antagonism is likely analogous to tren's action). I'm going to continue to delve into teasing out the different pathways for edema ("wet" compounds) vs. anti-adipogenic/hardening ("dry") compounds.

 

[VenomYo]

OK, so long as we're on the same page with respect to tren not causing bloat (and I mention methyltrienolone only because the data showing its MR antagonism is likely analogous to tren's action). I'm going to continue to delve into teasing out the different pathways for edema ("wet" compounds) vs. anti-adipogenic/hardening ("dry") compounds.

Yes, also part of the confusion is my fault, first time I ran injectable tren I was using mtren alongside it, which obfuscated the source of that nasty bloat, that came from mtren.
Yes please do, a major player in that whole "bloat" equation is definitely blood pressure, and I've heard serious BB'ers recommend telmisartan to combat bloat.

Cialis + Ashwagandha seems to be a potent debloater combo, i'm going to add in Omega3 fish oil because it's an aldosterone antagonist and see if that resolves my bloat issues further

Docosahexaenoic acid is an antihypertensive nutrient that affects aldosterone production in SHR - PubMed

The effects of dietary docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), an omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid, on blood pressure and some pressure-regulating systems were measured in young spontaneously hypertensive rats (SHR). Plasma aldosterone and corticosterone levels, adrenal aldosterone production in vitro...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[MR_Midas]

My legs seem to swell less when I use prop over cyp. I’ve recently found that dosing 10mg nolva has also cut down on my sock lines as well. Idk why. Just an observation

I have also observed that when I use short testosterone esters, for example testosterone propionate instead of enanthate or cypionate. I also have higher pressure on long testosterones and my head hurts more often.

 

[VenomYo]

I have also observed that when I use short testosterone esters, for example testosterone propionate instead of enanthate or cypionate. I also have higher pressure on long testosterones and my head hurts more often.

ive crashed my estrogen a handful of times on purpose to see if it would reduce my water retention. it doesn't. I also hold way more water on test E compared to prop. My first time running Test E my size ramped up fast, way faster than on Prop, which lead me to believe that the more steady state release of long esters was superior to building muscle. I was wrong, it's just because Test E makes you hold more water

Currently i'm thinking about doing 100mg Prop EOD. according to steroid plotter it's gonna yield some pretty huge upticks and downswings, huge fluctuations apparently with EOD dosing on prop. but daily injections are downright tedious, and Test E and C are equally as tedious because of the water retention.

Oddly enough people used to say Sustanon was less bloaty than Test E and C, but the current sentiment today is that sustanon makes you hold the most water? I wonder what changed peoples view on sust

 

[Type-IIx]

ive crashed my estrogen a handful of times on purpose to see if it would reduce my water retention. it doesn't. I also hold way more water on test E compared to prop. My first time running Test E my size ramped up fast, way faster than on Prop, which lead me to believe that the more steady state release of long esters was superior to building muscle. I was wrong, it's just because Test E makes you hold more water

Currently i'm thinking about doing 100mg Prop EOD. according to steroid plotter it's gonna yield some pretty huge upticks and downswings, huge fluctuations apparently with EOD dosing on prop. but daily injections are downright tedious, and Test E and C are equally as tedious because of the water retention.

Oddly enough people used to say Sustanon was less bloaty than Test E and C, but the current sentiment today is that sustanon makes you hold the most water? I wonder what changed peoples view on sust

Sust > E/C > Ace > Suspension in water retention

For me, it was clear when I read Kerr's book and his using suspension back in the 80s with athletes prone to edema.