Watson Test-C (Domestic-Supply) - Blood Work - 2/2015 - LabCorp

[Burrr]

Most UGL's are getting the same mediocre raws that you and I could get, and they're getting them cheap. Kinda funny to think that they would be considered such a great source if they just dosed gear properly, which would be as easy as brewing up a batch of 300mg/ml test and slapping a 200mg/ml label on it.
Wala, full strength gear!

 

[I_know_nothing]

Most UGL's are getting the same mediocre raws that you and I could get, and they're getting them cheap. Kinda funny to think that they would be considered such a great source if they just dosed gear properly, which would be as easy as brewing up a batch of 300mg/ml test and slapping a 200mg/ml label on it.
Wala, full strength gear!

or even better! dose a batch at 300mg/mL and slapping on a 100mg/mL, or even 10mg/mL, wow 15x blood levels!!

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

hit me back up when you have some actual things other than character attacks CBS

No thanks. If I refrained from using what you refer to as "character attacks" when addressing dishonest members who hide behind impostor accounts, I'd have nothing to say.

You see, KnowNothing, I'm terrible with names. Even with people I know well. Lots of people say that but with me, it's really bad. I make up for it, though, by remembering people by certain traits they possess. I usually recognize people whose online name I've forgotten by their avatar, personalty, posting style, etc. When you returned to Meso the other day, I had no recollection of ever interacting with a KnowNothing. None whatsoever. That's how easily I forget names. But as soon as a read a line or two of your post, I knew who you were instantly. That's how I was able to spot your Bed_Head77 handle on reddit so easily. The point I'm trying to make is I have your number and I don't like dishonest people who try to fool Meso members by pretending to be someone else. I have no desire to "bring" anything to a conversation with you other than to expose your dishonesty. Call it "character attacks" if you like. It is what it is.

 

[weighted chinup]

UGL are never ever going to have pharma grade raws.

And no one is saying they have to get pharma grade raws. There is a middle ground, it's not just garbage raws and pharma grade raws. Thinking in absolute extremes is counter-productive, nothing is that black and white.

There is better than the open raw powder sources that the majority of UGL's are using, but these idiots certainly don't have access to them. Yet they still decide to start sourcing using shit raw sources and zero testing. And they still decide to dispute user submitted testing and blood work.

you cannot apply TRT patients taking 100-300mg/wk from once maybe twice a week injections to steroid users who are using 500mg, 1g+ gear and pinning twice if not more a week.

I'm not using TRT patients to support the estimates.

even clinical studies only go up to 600mg, and at the 600mg level we see huge variances, i believe the confidence interval was 1000 ng/dL wide.

Still within 8-10x.

i mean hypothetically if someone ran 10g/week they're going to come back with blood levels at 100,000 ng/dL? what about 100g/week? would it be 1,000,000 ng/dL?

Using absolute extremes to prove your point. Nice.

what i'm saying is that the body has a limit, it's not linear.

Actually it is linear. How much more evidence do you want showing it is a linear dose dependent relationship?

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

i believe the confidence interval was 1000 ng/dL wide.

Pretending to understand stats again, I see. Please tell us again about how a correlation coefficient of r = 0.93 isn't that great. LMFAO

Give it up KN. You really do Know Nothing.

 

[I_know_nothing]

And no one is saying they have to get pharma grade raws. There is a middle ground, it's not just garbage raws and pharma grade raws. Thinking in absolute extremes is counter-productive, nothing is that black and white.

There is better than the open raw powder sources that the majority of UGL's are using, but these idiots certainly don't have access to them. Yet they still decide to start sourcing using shit raw sources and zero testing. And they still decide to dispute user submitted testing and blood work.

I agree with you here, however it would seem from the board that if you're not at 10x blood, your gear is underdosed.

I'm not using TRT patients to support the estimates.

What are you using? Can you provide the data?

Still within 8-10x.

Lol they were nadir levels, you're telling me you can extrapolate nadir levels to peak levels? even with a 1000ng/dL range if you use their little "double TT because of halflife" now you're talking about a even bigger variance.

Using absolute extremes to prove your point. Nice.

It relates directly with your bottom statement, if it's linear then are we to assume that linearity continues forever?

Actually it is linear. How much more evidence do you want showing it is a linear dose dependent relationship?[/QUOTE]

 

[I_know_nothing]

Pretending to understand stats again, I see. Please tell us again about how a correlation coefficient of r = 0.93 isn't that great. LMFAO

Give it up KN. You really do Know Nothing.

check out the confidence intervals as you increase the dosage. the r values just supports that there is linear relationship between the MEAN TT values and dosage up to 600mg/week. to extrapolate that linearity beyond 600mg/wk is unjustified because there's no clinical studies or evidence to back that up.

 

[weighted chinup]

It relates directly with your bottom statement, if it's linear then are we to assume that linearity continues forever?

Yes, it will continue. Why do you think its been established as a linear dose dependant relationship, instead of a logarithmic relationship? It's linear and dose depednant. Not logarithmic. Linear.

Suggesting the relationship is not linear is just wrong. You can attempt to use absolute extremes to prove your point but any one who posses critical thinking skills will side with the evidence which has CLEARLY established it's a linear relationship, not speculation and bro-science.

Serum test will increase as dosage increases in a LINEAR way. Effects on body composition or strength might not be linear but suggesting serum test levels won't increase in a linear way with the dose is just incorrect bro-science.

 

[I_know_nothing]

Yes, it will continue. Why do you think its been established as a linear dose dependant relationship, instead of a logarithmic relationship? It's linear and dose depednant. Not logarithmic. Linear.

Suggesting the relationship is not linear is just wrong. You can attempt to use absolute extremes to prove your point but any one who posses critical thinking skills will side with the evidence which has CLEARLY established it's a linear relationship, not speculation and bro-science.

Serum test will increase as dosage increases in a LINEAR way. Effects on body composition or strength might not be linear but suggesting serum test levels won't increase in a linear way with the dose is just incorrect bro-science.

right above your post i say it is linear. what i am saying is that studies have shown it is linear up to 600mg/wk. can we extrapolate? absolutely can we, and i'd imagine it would be linear for 1g+. what i am uncertain of, and of course this is just my personal observation, is that does the linearity continue or does it taper off? i've got zero evidence that it does, and there's zero evidence that it doesnt. clinical studies have shown it's linear up to 600mg/wk, but have not gone any higher. again, personally it just seems a bit "crazy" that hypothetically is someone ran 10g/week they would have 100,000 ng/dL, but then again i do not fully understand the pharmacokinetics of test in the body.

 

[weighted chinup]

right above your post i say it is linear. what i am saying is that studies have shown it is linear up to 600mg/wk. can we extrapolate? absolutely can we, and i'd imagine it would be linear for 1g+. what i am uncertain of, and of course this is just my personal observation, is that does the linearity continue or does it taper off? i've got zero evidence that it does, and there's zero evidence that it doesnt. clinical studies have shown it's linear up to 600mg/wk, but have not gone any higher. again, personally it just seems a bit "crazy" that hypothetically is someone ran 10g/week they would have 100,000 ng/dL, but then again i do not fully understand the pharmacokinetics of test in the body.

If you prefer to use speculation because something seems crazy to you then that is your choice.

Doesn't make it truth though. Others on Meso prefer to take an evidence based approach rather than form opinions based on speculation or because something seems crazy to them, even though the evidence paints a very clear picture.

It's the difference between science and sorcery.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Yes, it will continue. Why do you think its been established as a linear dose dependant relationship, instead of a logarithmic relationship? It's linear and dose depednant. Not logarithmic. Linear.

Suggesting the relationship is not linear is just wrong. You can attempt to use absolute extremes to prove your point but any one who posses critical thinking skills will side with the evidence which has CLEARLY established it's a linear relationship, not speculation and bro-science.

Serum test will increase as dosage increases in a LINEAR way. Effects on body composition or strength might not be linear but suggesting serum test levels won't increase in a linear way with the dose is just incorrect bro-science.

WC, numbnuts knows all this but his agenda won't permit him to admit it. He arrived here absolutely convinced that he could prove the 10X rule was bogus with a study he didn't understand. The only thing he proved was that he didn't know the difference between nadir and peak levels and when his error was pointed out, his argument quickly changed, as it has countless times since. You'll never get him to admit he's wrong, no matter how much evidence you present. He will try to distract and deflect by nit picking at irrelevant details or using gross exaggeration as he just did. He's a troll using several handles, working for a bathtub ugl. Nothing more.

 

[weighted chinup]

WC, numbnuts knows all this but his agenda won't permit him to admit it. He arrived here absolutely convinced that he could prove the 10X rule was bogus with a study he didn't understand. The only thing he proved was that he didn't know the difference between nadir and peak levels and when his error was pointed out, his argument quickly changed, as it has countless times since. You'll never get him to admit he's wrong, no matter how much evidence you present. He will try to distract and deflect by nit picking at irrelevant details or using gross exaggeration as he just did. He's a troll using several handles, working for a bathtub ugl. Nothing more.

You are absolutely correct, many of the individuals who come here just to argue these things have zero interest in the truth or evidence. I as well suspect that many of them have an agenda with some cut rate lab, and others I suspect just like being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian.

One thing these agitators all have in common is that they don't care about evidence. They don't care about the research. They don't even care about clinical experiences by individuals with experience in this area. None of these things matter to them, because they don't care about the truth or fact-finding.

Funny how at the end of the day these individuals and their arguments just boil down to speculation and bro-science.

I say they should publish their findings.

 

[Dr JIM]

Give it up KN. You really do Know Nothing.

Ya know that's what I also use to think CBS, but now it's clear he's an absolute moron attempting to impress us all by stating he Knows Nothing!

 

[dper726]

so i actually have a few friends on trt now, most in the 150-200mg/wk range. they have no idea about private lab testing, but what exactly do you guys want as proof? i'll pay for their testing because im genuinely interested as well, guys online can say anything they want. tell me exactly what proof you need (being reasonable of course, i will not provide any pics of identifying information, im not sure if they've be comfortable with me taking a pic of their script but ill ask), what timing you want, what dosing schedule, tell me what exactly it is you need and i'll try to set it up the best I can. as long as you dont do what jim does, that is every time i give you the proof you want, you add another caveat or excuse

and again, i have no problem with providing data points and spending time/money to do so, but only if there's value in it. if there are members that are just going to discredit it no matter what i do, there's no way im spending $80-100 to test someone else's blood.

Im was trying hard not to judge you after all the available info here on who you may be. But you are showing me now you have a hidden agenda behind all this..

You are taking this way too much at heart when we are simply debating here with already available resources. You must have something at stake with an investment to be willing to put money as you stated into it.

 

[dper726]

Two reasons
1. Dr Scallys 10x rule is based on once weekly injections, this will give a bigger spike.
If a guy were to pin 500mg all in one injection he's far more likely to see a 10x number. Few of us pin once a week.
2. It's unlikely that a person will catch the peak level at just the right time with the blood work.

I believe it's bullshit to declare gear underdosed because bloodwork comes back at 6x or 7x after one blood test. It may be underdosed, but that blood work does not give us that conclusion.
There are lots of guys on forums running TRT with a Dr's script and posting blood work. Sometimes we see 10x, but often don't.

Correct, if you want to achieve the 10x rule, rule of thumb should be to inject the full weekly amount then draw blood post day. Although multiple weekly injections of the same compound should only yield minor difference. Say for instance going from 10x to at the least 7x. Anything lower would be under dosed at best. And be aware I don't think multiple weekly injections should produce anything less than 8x.

Here are my examples.

Astro 1200mg split into weekly injections monday and thursday. These are the post monday ( tuesday drawing ) results. Consider this.... my AI here is bunk. Also I was on deca at the same time. Another factor to note here is... This was during astros last run when everything left to right was coming out under dosed. While this example is flawed, I am showing you how attainable the end result of the 8x to 10x logic is possible with the experiment as controlled as possible.

Lets compare this to
125mg weekly shot every monday; this is the results post 24 hours injection. With an AI so estrogen conversion is under control.

 

[jackmeoff1]

Scientific theory implied by a plentiful pool suggests evidence is leaning one way and heavy. You seem now to disregard any scientific approach to this. We can either have an open mind on this debate, or we can simply close shop because you seem to have made up your mind leaving behind any scientific reasoning to your claims.

I've showed this data in the other thread that you claim to have read. I've had numerous blood draws on pharmaceutical testosterone, taken at various intervals (including 48 hrs) and the BEST result I had was x7.

That is just a singular case but I've seen similar values elsewhere and even values higher than x10.

You ignore THAT data and I'm being close minded?

 

[jackmeoff1]

And why do you think that is, Burr?

Do you think it's because the estimates supported by evidence suddenly don't apply to guys cycling AAS?



What do you think?

What evidence? We are easily 200 posts deep into the same argument and the only "evidence" regarding this 10x rule leads back to an observation by an ex doctor on this forum.

 

[jackmeoff1]

You are absolutely correct, many of the individuals who come here just to argue these things have zero interest in the truth or evidence. I as well suspect that many of them have an agenda with some cut rate lab, and others I suspect just like being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian.

One thing these agitators all have in common is that they don't care about evidence. They don't care about the research. They don't even care about clinical experiences by individuals with experience in this area. None of these things matter to them, because they don't care about the truth or fact-finding.

Funny how at the end of the day these individuals and their arguments just boil down to speculation and bro-science.

I say they should publish their findings.

Holy shit! I have zero interest in the truth or evidence?

You are basing your entire belief on blood work/dose correlation on an observation. There has been NO evidence to support it. Whenever Jim or your other leaders are backed in a corner to provide it, the resort to personal attacks. Scally himself won't speak to it, even when asked to. If you can think for yourself for just a moment you would see that you are being a sheep.

 

[dper726]

I've showed this data in the other thread that you claim to have read. I've had numerous blood draws on pharmaceutical testosterone, taken at various intervals (including 48 hrs) and the BEST result I had was x7.

That is just a singular case but I've seen similar values elsewhere and even values higher than x10.

You ignore THAT data and I'm being close minded?

Close minded? Your a fool. You have just come here and basically told everyone to believe in what yu preach because everything else is a lie. You've ignore what has been used against you. Much like your friend or rather your own second character you have a hidden agenda. Unlike where I have kept an open mind to this to keep this debatable to reach a solution. You continue to sit on what you originally relayed. Disregarding any explanation to what has been provided alternatively.

Keep your hidden agendas and keep accepting all that shitty gear you have high praise for at x5 rate. It's your money, your body, your problems. But no one should believe the bullshit you spill where you take the sides of a lower end of a product over the higher expectations we have here as a community in controlling these products.

You're missing your other two personas you've created in this forum yet in this thread to make it appear as if you have a defense in this case

 

[jackmeoff1]

Close minded? Your a fool. You have just come here and basically told everyone to believe in what yu preach because everything else is a lie. You've ignore what has been used against you. Much like your friend or rather your own second character you have a hidden agenda. Unlike where I have kept an open mind to this to keep this debatable to reach a solution. You continue to sit on what you originally relayed. Disregarding any explanation to what has been provided alternatively.

Keep your hidden agendas and keep accepting all that shitty gear you have high praise for at x5 rate. It's your money, your body, your problems. But no one should believe the bullshit you spill where you take the sides of a lower end of a product over the higher expectations we have here as a community in controlling these products.

You're missing your other two personas you've created in this forum yet in this thread to make it appear as if you have a defense in this case

I encourage you to read that other thread. The people feeding you bullshit are the two members that identify themselves as doctors. They never proved anything. I provided data contrary to the 10x rule and simply asked for supporting evidence of their "theory". Instead of evidence, or even a logical explanation, I was brought up in conspiracy theory and served personal attacks. Not exactly the professional behavior you would expect from a real "doctor".

If you want to believe that IKN and I are one in the same, that is your business. Anyone with an observant eye can see the difference. I'm just an average bro who happens to thrive on critical thinking. IKN to me seems to be a guy with an interest in science.