Why do some people suggest am AI during a cycle?

[weighted chinup]

So your telling me you can run a test deca cycle, with a dbol kickstart and not use an ai? I just don't believe that.... I think it's about the compounds ds you are running... I'm not saying your wrong or that peeps can't cycle without them... I just don't think it's a good idea to be posting a thread saying you shouldn't use an ai on cycle... newbs do dumb shit on their own without thinking they can just save a bunch of money and run all the good shit without being prepared...

I'm going to be starting a Sust and Deca cycle sometime next week. 750mg sust 600mg deca / week. I don't plan on using an AI unless I start getting high e2 symptoms, and if the only issue I get is gyno I won't even use the AI, I'll go straight to Nolva.

Based on prior cycles I suspect I will only make sporadic and infrequent use of adex if it's necessary.

I feel that Chest was given shit for a position that I happen to agree with. Don't use drugs you don't need, and if you do need them, use the right drugs for the job. In the case of gyno, AI's suck.

Aside from that, I don't think everyone is going to get symptoms from E2 and you could argue how fruitful it is to keep e2 in normal range when your TT is 6000+ or whatever else.

 

[Docd187123]

So let me make sure I got this right.... my trt dose is 200 mg a week... and your right at that dose I have no need for an ai... but at 500 a week (blast) I need .5 adex eod or I start getting symptoms of high e2... if left alone for more than a week I get gyno..... so explain to me how I'm supposed to run a cycle, without an ai and not get gyno... ? Your suggesting everyone run their test at a low trt dose instead of using an ai?

WeightedChinup did say he only uses an AI when E2 becomes symptomatic. Getting gyno would be symptomatic although as he also later stated, an AI is not the best choice for gyno prevention. A serm like nolva is. Also gyno doesn't form in a week. It takes longer than that. My assumption would be either pseudogyno or it having already been there and it just says gets aggravated when you blast.

 

[Jeremiahflex]

I'm going to be starting a Sust and Deca cycle sometime next week. 750mg sust 600mg deca / week. I don't plan on using an AI unless I start getting high e2 symptoms, and if the only issue I get is gyno I won't even use the AI, I'll go straight to Nolva.

Based on prior cycles I suspect I will only make sporadic and infrequent use of adex if it's necessary.

I feel that Chest was given shit for a position that I happen to agree with. Don't use drugs you don't need, and if you do need them, use the right drugs for the job. In the case of gyno, AI's suck.

Aside from that, I don't think everyone is going to get symptoms from E2 and you could argue how fruitful it is to keep e2 in normal range when your TT is 6000+ or whatever else.

I agree with you, never use drugs you don't need, but how can you tell people they won't need them based on your own experience? My buddy does go to a trt clinic and his estro causes tender nips on 200-250 a week thus the doc giving him an ai. All I said was use bloodwork as your decision maker not just how you feel. I also cant go over 400mg a week without a little adex. Maybe some of you guys are elite and don't get the same sides. Someone here said their estro goes over 350 with no tits. So again everyone if different. Have adex on hand and nolvadex and do bloodwork, why not be prepared.I've seen alot of threads where people say their nips hurt like hell adex in the mail

 

[Docd187123]

I agree with you, never use drugs you don't need, but how can you tell people they won't need them based on your own experience? My buddy does go to a trt clinic and his estro causes tender nips on 200-250 a week thus the doc giving him an ai. All I said was use bloodwork as your decision maker not just how you feel. I also cant go over 400mg a week without a little adex. Maybe some of you guys are elite and don't get the same sides. Someone here said their estro goes over 350 with no tits. So again everyone if different. Have adex on hand and nolvadex and do bloodwork, why not be prepared.I've seen alot of threads where people say their nips hurt like hell adex in the mail

Tender nips isn't gyno and alone isn't reason enough to warrant AI use.

Why use blood work as the decision maker over symptoms if someone is asymptomatic even with elevated E2?

 

[Jeremiahflex]

Tender nips isn't gyno and alone isn't reason enough to warrant AI use.

Why use blood work as the decision maker over symptoms if someone is asymptomatic even with elevated E2?

I know you're a knowledgeable dude, Ive read plenty of your post, but to my knowledge sore nips may not be gyno but a precursor to forming breast tissue. Also even without symptoms shouldn't we try to keep E2 in a good range? One more thing what do you do when your nips get sore just leave them, genuine question. Adex has worked for me I have no tits and have been blasting and cruising non stop for a year partially under a doctor's care.

 

[Docd187123]

I know you're a knowledgeable dude, Ive read plenty of your post, but to my knowledge sore nips may not be gyno but a precursor to forming breast tissue.

It might be and it might not be. There are many different things that can cause one's nipples to be sensitive. We are fucking with are hormones after all. The main point of WeightedChinup and myself is though that adex is a poor option for gyno control. If you are gyno prone, have gyno, etc take something that's proven to be effective for it, ie, nolvadex. If you're having other high E2 symptoms than take the adex but don't take these drugs unless there's a specific reason to.

Also even without symptoms shouldn't we try to keep E2 in a good range?

Why? Do we keep our test levels in range when blasting? Letting your E2 climb a bit can a happy be beneficial to your progress. You also have to understand that ppl are going 5x or more their natural test levels on cycle PLUS adding other androgens as well so elevated E2 is to be expected. So long as it remains asymptomatic there's no really good reason to try and micromanage the levels to stay within normal range.

One more thing what do you do when your nips get sore just leave them, genuine question.

Yup, just leave them. Should you begin to get gyno then take nolva.

Adex has worked for me I have no tits and have been blasting and cruising non stop for a year partially under a doctor's care.

How do you know it's the adex that prevented your gyno? By that I mean have you gone without the adex and developed gyno?

Dr. Scally has some excellent posts and studies on this topic on the forum. If you're interested in reading them I'll try to find them and link here.

 

[ChestRockwell]

The only thing I don't agree with that he said is that e2 symptoms means too much steronz, IME issues can occur at much lower doses and maybe never occur at much higher doses. I don't think this is one of those times where keeping dose low will necessarily solve the issue.

Yes, I probably shouldn't have stated that in such a matter of fact way however running too much total weekly AAS is definitely one of the most common ways to increase the likelihood of problems developing.

Some of the important things to consider when designing a hormone stack/protocol includes understanding an individual's potential for aromatization and dialing in their A:E ratios accordingly. In addition, those who are sensitive to estrogen and progresterone should be very cognizant of how frequently stack design changes are made as it can become very easy to upset hormonal balance, which secondarily can lead to issues.

 

[ChestRockwell]

So your telling me you can run a test deca cycle, with a dbol kickstart and not use an ai?

Generally speaking, yes - although that is probably not an intelligently designed stack as you are running a combination of very high aromatizing compounds without any additional androgens. For someone who aromatizes easily, this proposed stack is a disaster waiting to happen.

In addition, AIs do absolutely nothing as it relates to nandrolone since aromatization does not occur at the enzyme (where AIs bind).

 

[Ryno1980]

Well now I'm just completely fucking lost.... I've always been of the understanding that if I wanna keep gyno symptoms in check, make sure to keep e2 in check with an ai.... this has worked for me at times, running test and 1 other compound... but it seems that any time I add tren or npp to the mix there is no such thing as enough adex.... not sayin your all wrong and I apologize for questioning what you were saying but please help me understand this as it goes against everything I've ever known... nolva for pct... ais for cycle... so I guess my question, I had a gyno flare up 6 months ago maybe less... first one.... took letro to kill the lump but now when I bump my test up a bit or add tren the right nip gets sore and the lump comes back... if I take 1mg adex the lump goes away for a few days and comes back until I drop back down...... so if I'm understanding you all correctly, I should stop fucking with the adex, and when I start to get that sensative nip shit going on just start nolvadex? And what run it for the remainder of the cycle?

 

[Ryno1980]

Generally speaking, yes - although that is probably not an intelligently designed stack as you are running a combination of very high aromatizing compounds without any additional androgens. For someone who aromatizes easily, this proposed stack is a disaster waiting to happen.

In addition, AIs do absolutely nothing as it relates to nandrolone since aromatization does not occur at the enzyme (where AIs bind).

I do apologize for calling you out like that.... this shit makes sense , it's just fucking foreign to me... I do try very hard to put in the research time to ensure I'm putting the right shit in my body and all of this just .... it's crazy... it makes sense but I don't understand why I've not found this info before now.... anyway sorry brother...

 

[Ryno1980]

It might be and it might not be. There are many different things that can cause one's nipples to be sensitive. We are fucking with are hormones after all. The main point of WeightedChinup and myself is though that adex is a poor option for gyno control. If you are gyno prone, have gyno, etc take something that's proven to be effective for it, ie, nolvadex. If you're having other high E2 symptoms than take the adex but don't take these drugs unless there's a specific reason to.



Why? Do we keep our test levels in range when blasting? Letting your E2 climb a bit can a happy be beneficial to your progress. You also have to understand that ppl are going 5x or more their natural test levels on cycle PLUS adding other androgens as well so elevated E2 is to be expected. So long as it remains asymptomatic there's no really good reason to try and micromanage the levels to stay within normal range.



Yup, just leave them. Should you begin to get gyno then take nolva.



How do you know it's the adex that prevented your gyno? By that I mean have you gone without the adex and developed gyno?

Dr. Scally has some excellent posts and studies on this topic on the forum. If you're interested in reading them I'll try to find them and link here.

Not trying to question you doc... I have much respect but I've always been under the impression that nolva will block estro but does nothing to stop gyno... so if someone waits until its already there aren't they gonna need something to kick it?

 

[Docd187123]

Not trying to question you doc... I have much respect but I've always been under the impression that nolva will block estro but does nothing to stop gyno... so if someone waits until its already there aren't they gonna need something to kick it?

Nolva is a mixed agonist and antagonist of the estrogen receptor. In some tissues it is an agonist, meaning it binds to the receptors and activates those receptors, and in other tissues it's an antagonist which means it binds to those receptors and prevents them from activating. In breast tissue, nolva acts as an antagonist so it prevents estrogen from binding there and prevents the receptors from activating and making gyno. I'm not saying it is impossible to get gyno when taking nolva but that it is a much, much better choice for gyno prevention than an AI is.

 

[Ryno1980]

Nolva is a mixed agonist and antagonist of the estrogen receptor. In some tissues it is an agonist, meaning it binds to the receptors and activates those receptors, and in other tissues it's an antagonist which means it binds to those receptors and prevents them from activating. In breast tissue, nolva acts as an antagonist so it prevents estrogen from binding there and prevents the receptors from activating and making gyno. I'm not saying it is impossible to get gyno when taking nolva but that it is a much, much better choice for gyno prevention than an AI is.

Understood... but wait for symptoms to show up? Or just take 20mg daily whIle on a heavy cycle... I'm not complaining... nolva is half the price of adex.

 

[weighted chinup]

Understood... but wait for symptoms to show up? Or just take 20mg daily whIle on a heavy cycle... I'm not complaining... nolva is half the price of adex.

I personally wait till symptoms appear and even then I generally wait and see because most of the time the tingles or sensitivity goes away. But if you are very gyno prone it might be prudent to run it from the jump for the duration of the blast.

My preference is to use sparingly and only when needed.

 

[Docd187123]

Understood... but wait for symptoms to show up? Or just take 20mg daily whIle on a heavy cycle... I'm not complaining... nolva is half the price of adex.

Just like WC says Ryno VVVV

I personally wait till symptoms appear and even then I generally wait and see because most of the time the tingles or sensitivity goes away. But if you are very gyno prone it might be prudent to run it from the jump for the duration of the blast.

My preference is to use sparingly and only when needed.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Excellent points in this thread. Personally speaking, I don't like letting E2 get too high because for me the emotional side effects suck, and doesn't take much of an increase to do it. However, I've found that I can control it by using an AI prn rather than daily or eod.

 

[Jeremiahflex]

I personally wait till symptoms appear and even then I generally wait and see because most of the time the tingles or sensitivity goes away. But if you are very gyno prone it might be prudent to run it from the jump for the duration of the blast.

My preference is to use sparingly and only when needed.

Ill try this i guess. I get worried if my nips are sensitive for too long, but I guess I'll give it more time to see if subsides on its own before drinking down the adex

 

[ChestRockwell]

I do apologize for calling you out like that.... this shit makes sense , it's just fucking foreign to me... I do try very hard to put in the research time to ensure I'm putting the right shit in my body and all of this just .... it's crazy... it makes sense but I don't understand why I've not found this info before now.... anyway sorry brother...

No harm done, my friend. We're all here to help each other out...

 

[Docd187123]

Generally speaking, yes - although that is probably not an intelligently designed stack as you are running a combination of very high aromatizing compounds without any additional androgens. For someone who aromatizes easily, this proposed stack is a disaster waiting to happen.

In addition, AIs do absolutely nothing as it relates to nandrolone since aromatization does not occur at the enzyme (where AIs bind).

Not entirely correct about the nandrolone part.

AI's do work on nandrolone but not entirely bc some of the nandrolone is aromatized in the testes. AI's cannot cross the blood testes barrier and therefore don't work on the testicular aromatization much like that of HCG. To say thy do absolutely nothing for nandrolone though isn't accurate.

 

[mands]

I agree with CBS and others on this. I use an AI for preventive/managing my e2. I try and keep it in the somewhat higher range while blasting.

My honest opinion it's a little reckless to actually wait until gyno starts to appear before starting your SERM. I do agree that beginners are more likely to jump the gun when the feel "itchy" nipples.

Nolvadex or Raloxifene are the choice drugs by many for fighting gyno.

AI(Aromasin,Arimidex) = managing e2 or preventing e2 problems.
SERM(Nolva, R) = Fighting/Combating gyno

mands