Witch HGH you prefer?

[hghlover]

Alone the health risk is worth it IMO. You’re putting an illegal, non-tested (no studies) biological compound that was created by gene manipulation without any data about efficacy, short or long term safety or pharmacokinetics into your body. A minuscule variation in the master cell or production and filtration could alter the effect of the substance completely. If the potential negative long term side effects don’t make you nervous, I don’t know what else would.

Plenty of us have taken chinese HGH daily for years and our heads haven't fallen off yet tho.

Matter of fact we feel fine, especially in our wallets

 

[janoshik]

Alone the health risk is worth it IMO. You’re putting an illegal, non-tested (no studies) biological compound that was created by gene manipulation without any data about efficacy, short or long term safety or pharmacokinetics into your body. A minuscule variation in the master cell or production and filtration could alter the effect of the substance completely. If the potential negative long term side effects don’t make you nervous, I don’t know what else would.

191aa peptide is not quite on par with 4583459834985aa monoclonals, you know.

You are perpetuating misinformation and fearmongering based on wrong assumptions here.

I'm seeing what you mean and I most certainly don't disagree with you when talking some molecules, but HGH is not one of them. Please, try to objectively reevaluate your stances.

 

[Csshotty]

191aa peptide is not quite on par with 4583459834985aa monoclonals, you know.

You are perpetuating misinformation and fearmongering based on wrong assumptions here.

I'm seeing what you mean and I most certainly don't disagree with you when talking some molecules, but HGH is not one of them. Please, try to objectively reevaluate your stances.

I am not fear mongering I am stating facts: There are no studies, there is no data, no pharmacokinetics there is no objective oversight or QC for Chinese UG HGH.
And as I said: I don`t care what people put into their bodies, I am not selling anything and have nothing to gain here vs a lot of other people in this thread.

There is a reason why we have put these regulatory bounderies and phase 1-3 studies into place to consider and recognize a safe and effective pharmaceutical product. You know that. People here are showing a great deal of confirmation bias and taking annectodal data aka bro stories as factual.

Please use Occam`s razor here and tell me what`s more likely

a) the Chinese UG labs figured out to do all this here

1. Gene cloning: The DNA sequence for human growth hormone is cloned and inserted into a bacterial or yeast host cell.
2. Fermentation: The host cells are grown in large fermentation tanks under controlled conditions, such as temperature, pH, and oxygen levels.
3. Harvesting: After the fermentation process is complete, the cells are harvested and the HGH is extracted from the cell culture using various purification techniques. These techniques can include chromatography, filtration, and precipitation.
4. Formulation: The purified HGH is then formulated into a stable, injectable product. This process can involve adding stabilizers, buffers, and other excipients to the HGH solution to ensure it remains stable and effective.
5. Quality control: Throughout the production process, the HGH product undergoes rigorous quality control testing to ensure it meets the required specifications for purity, potency, and safety.

and can provide HGH with the same quality at a fraction of a cost vs big Pharma but just chose not to enter the most lucrative health markets in the world (US, Japan and EU) because they just want to sell to a black market and make millions instead of billions

or

b) the Chinese can not provide a consistent quality, safety and efficacy of their product and would therefore not get regulatory approval in these regions.

 

[janoshik]

I am not fear mongering I am stating facts: There are no studies, there is no data, no pharmacokinetics there is no objective oversight or QC for Chinese UG HGH.
And as I said: I don`t care what people put into their bodies, I am not selling anything and have nothing to gain here vs a lot of other people in this thread.

There is a reason why we have put these regulatory bounderies and phase 1-3 studies into place to consider and recognize a safe and effective pharmaceutical product. You know that. People here are showing a great deal of confirmation bias and taking annectodal data aka bro stories as factual.

Please use Occam`s razor here and tell me what`s more likely

a) the Chinese UG labs figured out to do all this here

1. Gene cloning: The DNA sequence for human growth hormone is cloned and inserted into a bacterial or yeast host cell.
2. Fermentation: The host cells are grown in large fermentation tanks under controlled conditions, such as temperature, pH, and oxygen levels.
3. Harvesting: After the fermentation process is complete, the cells are harvested and the HGH is extracted from the cell culture using various purification techniques. These techniques can include chromatography, filtration, and precipitation.
4. Formulation: The purified HGH is then formulated into a stable, injectable product. This process can involve adding stabilizers, buffers, and other excipients to the HGH solution to ensure it remains stable and effective.
5. Quality control: Throughout the production process, the HGH product undergoes rigorous quality control testing to ensure it meets the required specifications for purity, potency, and safety.

and can provide HGH with the same quality at a fraction of a cost vs big Pharma but just chose not to enter the most lucrative health markets in the world (US, Japan and EU) because they just want to sell to a black market and make millions instead of billions

or

b) the Chinese can not provide a consistent quality, safety and efficacy of their product and would therefore not get regulatory approval in these regions.

You do realize that the tests necessary for introduction of generic HGH are publicly available and those tests are all menial and not really accounting for the stuff you fear monger about.

Perhaps the authorities didn't realize the risks that you do?

Now use an Occams razor:
a) increases in IGF-1 in people using chinese HGH are magic
or
b) chinese HGH is HGH and is formulated stable enough to work .

Thus, your painfully written points a to d are void, as it's fairly obvious the Chinese indeed can make and harvest HGH.


Now, about qa/qc... I feel this is a waste of my time, but you do realize the requirements for that are in pharmacopoeia and all but the shittiest chinese GH pretty much passes those standards, which were introduced quite some time ago and haven't really been updated much, due to inherent conservativeness of pharmaceutical industry. And if you paid attention, you'd know that my testing is much more stringent than the one prescribed by the pharmaceopoeia in regard to RP HPLC - and still UGL GH passes.

 

[janoshik]

I mean, for fucks sake, gene cloning, fermentation and harvesting is something we have undergrads do at this point.

My friend done that shit a decade ago at like 16 for a science project to obtain high purity material that was not available commercially.

You sound like you are stuck in the nineties, which in one of the fastest progressing fields there are kind of sucks.

 

[janoshik]

I mean, for fucks sake, gene cloning, fermentation and harvesting is something we have undergrads do at this point.

My friend done that shit a decade ago at like 16 for a science project to obtain high purity material that was not available commercially.

You sound like you are stuck in the nineties, which in one of the fastest progressing fields there are kind of sucks.

To add on this, you do realize it's not only pharmaceutical companies doing manufacturing of the HGH, right?

It's so easy and cheap, that random factories in China can make the raw material and turn profit. Random factories in China of course can't distribute pharmaceutical products, so they naturally can't sell it to the US or EU etc.

Now why don't Chinese companies that manufacture pharmaceutical HGH don't sell their shit in EU/USA?

Now, this is probably the same reason why Indian pharma companies have this issue and I have quite an insight on that, so in general:
1) well, the bureaucracy alone takes at the very least about 2 years
2) they don't quite have the personnel for bureaucracy and language processing thus it takes even longer
3) the market is saturated
4) they already are manufacturing close to their maximum capacity and able to sell in their domestic market

The financial benefit of entering saturated markets with a multiyear delay is questionable at best.
I mean, if they could get 10% of market share of HGH use in US how much do you think would that be? What would be the guarantee they even get that much? How much is GH prescibed? It ain't quite acetaminophen.

 

[Csshotty]

I mean, for fucks sake, gene cloning, fermentation and harvesting is something we have undergrads do at this point.

My friend done that shit a decade ago at like 16 for a science project to obtain high purity material that was not available commercially.

You sound like you are stuck in the nineties, which in one of the fastest progressing fields there are kind of sucks.

Yes, it’s so easy that the Chinese government signed a contract for billion$ in 2008 for basically tech transferring the technology for producing human insulin. And that’s a much simpler amino chain then HgH. And yeah, times have changed. But not like you’re implying. Doing small productions batches in the lab for experiments and the ability to mass produce in a large bioreactor with consistent quality and standards is something completely different. Even nowadays, the largest Pharma companies in the world are losing batches worth millions of dollars in drug substance due to unforeseen and unexplainable reasons. All because it’s so trivial as you are implying. They’re just too stupid to do it when undergrads can do it.

 

[Csshotty]

To add on this, you do realize it's not only pharmaceutical companies doing manufacturing of the HGH, right?

It's so easy and cheap, that random factories in China can make the raw material and turn profit. Random factories in China of course can't distribute pharmaceutical products, so they naturally can't sell it to the US or EU etc.

Now why don't Chinese companies that manufacture pharmaceutical HGH don't sell their shit in EU/USA?

Now, this is probably the same reason why Indian pharma companies have this issue and I have quite an insight on that, so in general:
1) well, the bureaucracy alone takes at the very least about 2 years
2) they don't quite have the personnel for bureaucracy and language processing thus it takes even longer
3) the market is saturated
4) they already are manufacturing close to their maximum capacity and able to sell in their domestic market

The financial benefit of entering saturated markets with a multiyear delay is questionable at best.
I mean, if they could get 10% of market share of HGH use in US how much do you think would that be? What would be the guarantee they even get that much? How much is GH prescibed? It ain't quite acetaminophen.

There’s huge financial benefit in saturated markets when you can bring the same quality of a biological molecule for a fraction of the price to the market. Ever heard of Biosimilars companies making billions out of this capability?
Obviously you have no idea about the financial incentives of the biologics markets. And that’s the point: Even these companies have shown that they only have a limited ability to do it. It’s not because they didn’t try, there a loads of Chinese and Indian manufacturers who applied for regulatory approval with their RA and onco biologicals and got rejected. The South Koreans were able to do it because they bought the people from large biopharma and learned how to do it. They can sell their products in these regions - why? Because they learned how to produce the molecule and the data. Regulatory approval process are comparable easy for Biosimilars vs originator biologics as you often don’t even need a phase 1 or 2 study anymore. And you can pay a consultancy to guide you thru the process. So no, these are no hurdles. It’s lack of capability, plain and easy.

 

[janoshik]

It’s not because they didn’t try, there a loads of Chinese and Indian manufacturers who applied for regulatory approval with their RA and onco biologicals and got rejected.

Ahh, yes, again, comparing monoclonals to 191aa GH.










vs
22k Da Somatropin, which, accidentally, is not an antibody either with none of the goddamn hurdles.

 

[janoshik]

Yes, it’s so easy that the Chinese government signed a contract for billion$ in 2008 for basically tech transferring the technology for producing human insulin. And that’s a much simpler amino chain then HgH. And yeah, times have changed. But not like you’re implying. Doing small productions batches in the lab for experiments and the ability to mass produce in a large bioreactor with consistent quality and standards is something completely different. Even nowadays, the largest Pharma companies in the world are losing batches worth millions of dollars in drug substance due to unforeseen and unexplainable reasons. All because it’s so trivial as you are implying. They’re just too stupid to do it when undergrads can do it.

And Chinese figured out the metallurgy to make a ballpoint pen just half a decade ago.

Doesn't mean there are risks and difficulties to Chinese ballpoint pens that involve flight risk, just because metallurgy involves manufacture of turbines as it does ballpoint pens.

Just like GH and monoclonals that you cannot help but bring up (because I suspect that's what you've dealt with) it's not even the same ballpark, difficulty-wise.

 

[janoshik]

Ah, nevermind.

I didn't really take the time to read previous posts, but I see that you "work in Pharma in biologics" and have " worked specifically as a consultant in China for big Pharma 15 years ago." Which pretty much confirms what I've been thinking and pointing to since the first post in this conversation.

You are in a different field and living 15 years ago.

Do the Chinese oft have abysmal QA/QC? Yes they do, otherwise I wouldn't have a job. I'm the first to tell people to be wary.

But, are the Chinese able to not have abysmal QA/QC and produce top notch stuff in a field that's not cutting edge for three decades now? Yes they are.

Have you been misaddressing issues that monoclonals have to somatropin manufacture? Goddamn yes.

 

[janoshik]

A minuscule variation in the master cell or production and filtration could alter the effect of the substance completely.

Please, provide an example on what would be the physicochemical difference between the native somatropin and the slightly altered one that worries you.

Please, do.

 

[Csshotty]

Ah, nevermind.

I didn't really take the time to read previous posts, but I see that you "work in Pharma in biologics" and have " worked specifically as a consultant in China for big Pharma 15 years ago." Which pretty much confirms what I've been thinking and pointing to since the first post in this conversation.

You are in a different field and living 15 years ago.

Do the Chinese oft have abysmal QA/QC? Yes they do, otherwise I wouldn't have a job. I'm the first to tell people to be wary.

But, are the Chinese able to not have abysmal QA/QC and produce top notch stuff in a field that's not cutting edge for three decades now? Yes they are.

Have you been misaddressing issues that monoclonals have to somatropin manufacture? Goddamn yes.

Yes, the Chinese QC is so great that a few years ago even the Chinese FDA rejected 80% of the drug applications:

During the one-year investigation CFDA (simplified Chinese: 国家食品药品监督管理局) asked companies to conduct self-inspections of their clinical testing data. The results, which investigated 1,622 new drugs submitted to CFDA, showed that data was suspected to be fraudulent for more than 80% of new drugs, with many of the new drugs found to be a combination of existing drugs.

CFDA officials discovered that the clinical data of many drugs was ‘incomplete or failed to cite reliable sources’. They also discovered that some drugmakers had ‘purposely concealed adverse drug reactions and altered test data that didn’t meet expectations’.

 

[Csshotty]

Please, provide an example on what would be the physicochemical difference between the native somatropin and the slightly altered one that worries you.

Please, do.

You know that smallest changes even in production can have significant effects in biologics. The experience the industry had with erythropoietin years ago when a small change in manufacturing made the product more immunogenic. This significantly increased the risk of treatment-induced pure red cell aplasia and resulted in high fatality rates and rendered other patients dependent on blood transfusions.
There is a reason why we have post-market safety monitoring for pharmaceutical products.

But hey, according to your expertise we can just let go of all safety measures because Chinese stuff is good to go screw EMA or the FDA, that’s just bureaucratic nonsense.

 

[janoshik]

Do the Chinese oft have abysmal QA/QC? Yes they do, otherwise I wouldn't have a job. I'm the first to tell people to be wary.

Yes, the Chinese QC is so great ...

Sigh. This is tiring.

 

[janoshik]

You know that smallest changes even in production can have significant effects in biologics. The experience the industry had with erythropoietin years ago when a small change in manufacturing made the product more immunogenic. This significantly increased the risk of treatment-induced pure red cell aplasia and resulted in high fatality rates and rendered other patients dependent on blood transfusions.
There is a reason why we have post-market safety monitoring for pharmaceutical products.

But hey, according to your expertise we can just let go of all safety measures because Chinese stuff is good to go screw EMA or the FDA, that’s just bureaucratic nonsense.

Thank you for the very specific example of the very dangerous somatropin variant and direct reply to my inquiry, much appreciated.

 

[clearheaded]

also keep in mind, production of pharma from Tylenol to hgh in china is not a new crazy thing, hgh from a "generic" factory sold to jinotropin for example. Tylenol sold in bulk to compounding pharmacies even in the states(they dont have a direct line to j and j s produced pure Tylenol , antibiotics (similar bio source correct?) and/or sold in various countries around the world simply repacked/pressed etc. SOP for every drug no longer under patent. Although to be fair, as jano has even said SOME rare peptides/chems out of china can be a mix of 'coli vomit' and of course we know host of impure analogs of various compounds, but of course those fall under the category of non pharma (as no where in the world are sold as such)...so of course its always good to be weary, and unless a true biochemist organic chemist working in the field to really shed light on possible contams pharmokenetics/production pre curser contaminations etc its all just boogy man type stuff here.

 

[clearheaded]

also to be fair Scotty ur conflating "new drug development" with existing production.. no one here is against the fact there is real concerns with chinese production standards..but that can be tested for/aswell as anecdotes do come about..remember VAST majority of pharma u buy is sourced in china or similar third world. does that mean we should all not use any meds ever? no, simply need to test. in fact in some cases ugl may actually act much faster on a bad batch as forums and such, vs slowly realizing a batch of Tylenol that was compounded into kids doses over year or more(even though third party tested). but yes for NEW drugs, very much be careful. but for drugs that are LEGALLY (yes most of the ugl sources are producing 100% legal in china), there is less concern, although of course third party testing is always important! and. your correct recalls happen all the time!

also with EPO example was there a change in production or just found that it causes a whole shit tonne of problems from myocarditis thrombosis, cancer etc.. lol strange athletes happen to get those more.. must be the vax tho tried to dig up recall but just from "thin viles" however they did re assess RX standards for it as found it causes many very bad side effects. care to cite that "change in production" of epo being an issue? or just the alpha version caused more issues?

 

[clearheaded]

found this but just found aggregates from degradation as not handled properly vs production, and of course the degraded product had more health concerns.... was this is what u were talking about? or is there something about 'pharma' changing how its produced? Impact of illegal trade on the quality of epoetin alfa in Thailand - PubMed and agree should be a list of certain meds that should be avoided from underground as may not have proper storage and known harms from such poor storage..

 

[MONSTRO1977]

bro how can i reach TP...i keep hearing its good hgh.. looking to stock

theprovider2013@mailfence.com

tp2013@securenym.net