A GH and fat loss protocol (rhGH lipolysis) that is science-based

[Megadick3000]

Can you explain or theorize why ibutamoren mesylate has completely different effects from rHGH?

I am experienced with both and MK-677 is a whole different beast. MK-677 puts weight on me faster than anything ive ever used. I swell up and FAST, 10+ lbs in 1 week is not unusual for me to experience when i do a run of it.

For reference, i have taken rHGH at 10iu/ed and get nowhere near the same outcome. MK-677 has effects far outside of its secretagogue effects, effects that do not seem to be at all mediated by GH/IGF-1.

It gives me a massive build up of what seems to be sarcoplasm, with the more carbs i eat the more dramatic both in volume and speed that it happens.

Do you know why? Do you know what else its mechanisms of effect are? Do you know much about ghrelins effects outside of stimulating GH secretion?

It behaves in my body more like my experiences with insulin (humalog).

I did some poking around about ghrelin itself some time ago and found studies showing it reduces insulin secretion at first but then several hours later a large insulin secretion happens. This was the only thing i found that might explain why MK-677 has this effect on me. Im curious to know Type-2, what do you know about ghrelin beyond GH/IGF-1 and do you think MK-677 would parallel alot of ghrelins own effects?

 

[Type-IIx]

Can you explain or theorize why ibutamoren mesylate has completely different effects from rHGH?

I am experienced with both and MK-677 is a whole different beast. MK-677 puts weight on me faster than anything ive ever used. I swell up and FAST, 10+ lbs in 1 week is not unusual for me to experience when i do a run of it.

For reference, i have taken rHGH at 10iu/ed and get nowhere near the same outcome. MK-677 has effects far outside of its secretagogue effects, effects that do not seem to be at all mediated by GH/IGF-1.

It gives me a massive build up of what seems to be sarcoplasm, with the more carbs i eat the more dramatic both in volume and speed that it happens.

Do you know why? Do you know what else its mechanisms of effect are? Do you know much about ghrelins effects outside of stimulating GH secretion?

It behaves in my body more like my experiences with insulin (humalog).

I did some poking around about ghrelin itself some time ago and found studies showing it reduces insulin secretion at first but then several hours later a large insulin secretion happens. This was the only thing i found that might explain why MK-677 has this effect on me. Im curious to know Type-2, what do you know about ghrelin beyond GH/IGF-1 and do you think MK-677 would parallel alot of ghrelins own effects?

Sure, Ibutamoren is a Ghrelin mimetic that stimulates pulsatile GH release without a substantial concomitant rise in circulating IGF-I. So, what we see, are some class effects of Ghrelin: inhibition of insulin secretion (i.e., hyperglycemia), a decrease in thermogenesis (relative decrease in RMR vs. rhGH, i.e., suppression of lipolysis), as well as some GH effects that are worse without the concomitant rise in IGF-I, as IGF-I tends to oppose their effects, e.g., relative hyperglycemia again (as IGF-I tends to oppose this effect of GH), I suspect that arthralgia/myalgia (musculoskeletal pain) and edema (fluid retention) are direct GH effects as they are on average more severe in women on rhGH who are GH-resistant (i.e., on estrogens or pre-menopausal) as the concomitant rise in IGFBP-1 unleashes GH by feedback withdrawal while suppressing the rise in IGF-I. Further considerations beyond this include the rise in cortisol and prolactin.

 

[MFAAS]

Sure, Ibutamoren is a Ghrelin mimetic that stimulates pulsatile GH release without a substantial concomitant rise in circulating IGF-I. So, what we see, are some class effects of Ghrelin: inhibition of insulin secretion (i.e., hyperglycemia), a decrease in thermogenesis (relative decrease in RMR vs. rhGH, i.e., suppression of lipolysis), as well as some GH effects that are worse without the concomitant rise in IGF-I, as IGF-I tends to oppose their effects, e.g., relative hyperglycemia again (as IGF-I tends to oppose this effect of GH), I suspect that arthralgia/myalgia (musculoskeletal pain) and edema (fluid retention) are direct GH effects as they are on average more severe in women on rhGH who are GH-resistant (i.e., on estrogens or pre-menopausal) as the concomitant rise in IGFBP-1 unleashes GH by feedback withdrawal while suppressing the rise in IGF-I. Further considerations beyond this include the rise in cortisol and prolactin.

How Do cortisol and prolactin play into the sides of GH?

 

[Type-IIx]

How Do cortisol and prolactin play into the sides of GH?

They're Ibutamoren sides, not rhGH.

 

[Bigdiddy]

What igf-1 levels do you guys try achieve? What is best level# for fat burning with out effecting sugar levels.?

 

[Megadick3000]

Sure, Ibutamoren is a Ghrelin mimetic that stimulates pulsatile GH release without a substantial concomitant rise in circulating IGF-I.

Your suggesting MK-677 increases GH but not result in higher IGF-1? Or are you saying it increases GH but has no direct effect itself on IGF-1?

I ask as i ran bloodsfor IGF-1 when using 25mg/ed MK-677 and my result was IGF-1 30% higher than the top end of the labs normal reference range. So it definitely resulted in higher IGF-1 but i assumed by GH->IGF-1 stimulation.

Also the explanations you provided fail to explain why MK-677 bulks me faster than anything ive ever used. It seems to me, anecdotally, that ibutamoren and perhaps ghrelin itself have some effects that seem to build up sarcoplasm at a phenomenal rate. But ive yet to hear an explaination for why/how. Alls i know is HGH doesnt come even close to bulking me like MK-677 does, no matter what HGH dose i use which leads me to believe its not related to its secretagogue effects but rather some other mechanism perhaps mediated through the Ghrelin system.

For reference ive substantial personal experience with rHGH, MK-677, GHRP-6, long R3 IGF-1, mod-GRF, and CJC-1295 (DAC).

 

[Type-IIx]

Your suggesting MK-677 increases GH but not result in higher IGF-1? Or are you saying it increases GH but has no direct effect itself on IGF-1?

Literally, what I said was "generally, Ibutamoren seems to be characterized by many of the negative effects of GH (e.g. insulin resistance/increased blood glucose, arthralgia/bone pain, edema/fluid retention, etc.) without a substantial (enough, in my view) increase in serum IGF-I (GH response; reflective of its cellular activity)."

I ask as i ran bloodsfor IGF-1 when using 25mg/ed MK-677 and my result was IGF-1 30% higher than the top end of the labs normal reference range. So it definitely resulted in higher IGF-1 but i assumed by GH->IGF-1 stimulation.

It is by GH-> IGF-I stimulation.

Also the explanations you provided fail to explain why MK-677 bulks me faster than anything ive ever used. It seems to me, anecdotally, that ibutamoren and perhaps ghrelin itself have some effects that seem to build up sarcoplasm at a phenomenal rate. But ive yet to hear an explaination for why/how. Alls i know is HGH doesnt come even close to bulking me like MK-677 does, no matter what HGH dose i use

I don't think the explanations fail to explain why MK-677 is likely to increase mass for you (anecdotally) at all. It's certainly due primarily to increased hunger/appetite, so you're eating more with than without. Coupled with whatever other drugs you might be on, training, nutrition, and some increase in GH/IGF-I from the Ibutamoren, you'll see some growth promotion, directly and indirectly, from Ibutamoren.

It's just that generally this compound is subpar at promoting lean mass accrual and anti-adipogenic/lipolytic effects directly, and it stands in stark contrast to rhGH and even some of the other peptides (used properly) that you have experience with.

which leads me to believe its not related to its secretagogue effects but rather some other mechanism perhaps mediated through the Ghrelin system.

The GHS-R (growth hormone secretagogue receptor), which Ghrelin mimetics agonize, has the following known functions:
- stimulation of GH release
- stimulation of prolactin & cortisol (ACTH)
- cardiovascular activity (largely beneficial)
- PPARγ regulation (adipogenesis, lipid metabolism, and insulin sensitivity)
- β-cell protective & perhaps pancreatic regenerative functions

But nothing besides GH release that's likely to promote growth.

 

[klokke23]

Hey why do i sleep like absolute shit on hgh? Gets worse as doses increases.

 

[Type-IIx]

Hey why do i sleep like absolute shit on hgh? Gets worse as doses increases.

Unless you mean that you have vivid nightmares (fairly common), this would be a highly atypical effect to occur rapidly. GH promotes slow wave sleep (more dreaming). Now chronically, it may contribute to sleep apnea. But not as you describe (dose-dependent acute changes to sleep quality).

 

[vorcellian]

So what, 4iu 2x a day every other day?

 

[klokke23]

Unless you mean that you have vivid nightmares (fairly common), this would be a highly atypical effect to occur rapidly. GH promotes slow wave sleep (more dreaming). Now chronically, it may contribute to sleep apnea. But not as you describe (dose-dependent acute changes to sleep quality).

I can't sleep. Sometimes I'm awake all night. On 2IU I could atleast get a few hours. But now, at 4, it's really gotten bad.

 

[GuerillaPete]

I can't sleep. Sometimes I'm awake all night. On 2IU I could atleast get a few hours. But now, at 4, it's really gotten bad.

What brand of hgh are you using ?
Did you use other brands as well? And how did you sleep on those ?
I personally sleep better on some brands than others.

 

[klokke23]

What brand of hgh are you using ?
Did you use other brands as well? And how did you sleep on those ?
I personally sleep better on some brands than others.

Black tops from panda. Could be the increase to 4 IU is unrelated now that I think about it. I increase the MENT from 35 to 50 around the same time.
But 2 IUs is definitely shit for my sleep. Hard time falling asleep, and I always wake up a couple of hours before om supposed to get up.

 

[GuerillaPete]

Black tops from panda. Could be the increase to 4 IU is unrelated now that I think about it. I increase the MENT from 35 to 50 around the same time.
But 2 IUs is definitely shit for my sleep. Hard time falling asleep, and I always wake up a couple of hours before om supposed to get up.

I get the same with meditrope.
But most gh gives me a good sleep.
Also increasing the dosage made sleep worse for me also.

 

[zeiko]

Thanks for this thread - very useful. It's the first I've seen that debunks the 1.5-2iu threshold commonly touted as gospel for maximum fat mobilisation.

How are you doing with your book? is it coming along well? @Type-IIx

 

[Bigdiddy]

google it-mostly copy and paste from Case studies and research. It will help in your own research

 

[Nobeast]

rhGH does promote recovery from exercise including resistance training by procollagenous activity (primarily affecting the extracellular matrix), anticatabolic effects (reduced catabolism of amino acids, improved nitrogen balance), improved sleep (increased slow wave sleep), and improved mitochondrial oxidative capacity.

Dose-response is individualized, but do consider that 2IU 5 days weekly is less than the average (mean) weekly production of a healthy 22 - 28 year old male. So a lot of the dosages I see are very low and often are mere replacement.

Yes, GH may enlarge gynecomastia and in some persons cause it outright.

rhGH does reduce extrathyroidal (peripheral) T4 levels by increased peripheral conversion to T3. It thus dysregulates in a sense thyroid function as a rule. It is worth monitoring serum T4 at any dosage increase. There may be a synergistic effect on intramuscular IGF-I (mIGF-I) levels between T4+hGH. This does not mean exogenous T4 is advisable, it means that were it not for the presence of T4 in peripheral tissue, there may not be a mechanism for increased intramuscular IGF-I splice variants to be increased. This is rather theoretical.

so if your taking 2ius and that’s basically equal to natural production do you consider it an additive effect to your natural production? For instance 2iu natural plus 2iu exogenous equals 4iu? Obv this is just an estimate but I guess what I’m asking is does your endogenous hgh production shutdown when you inject rhgh?

 

[Type-IIx]

rhGH does promote recovery from exercise including resistance training by procollagenous activity (primarily affecting the extracellular matrix), anticatabolic effects (reduced catabolism of amino acids, improved nitrogen balance), improved sleep (increased slow wave sleep), and improved mitochondrial oxidative capacity.

so if your taking 2ius and that’s basically equal to natural production do you consider it an additive effect to your natural production? For instance 2iu natural plus 2iu exogenous equals 4iu? Obv this is just an estimate but I guess what I’m asking is does your endogenous hgh production shutdown when you inject rhgh?

It is not additive and yes there is suppression of endogenous GH secretion. Administration of rhGH exerts a transient negative feedback (i.e., suppression) on endogenous secretion of GH, determined by route (longest for subq), dose (longer for higher doses), and broad inter- & intra- individual variability. There is some escape from suppression (but not full escape) by 6 h post rhGH-injection in about 1/3 of normal subjects. Generally, you're looking at ~24 hr of endogenous GH suppression from a 2 IU subq bolus.

 

[Halo01]

I can't sleep. Sometimes I'm awake all night. On 2IU I could atleast get a few hours. But now, at 4, it's really gotten bad.

Some “brands” put in vials peptides (ghrp for instance) instead of rgh. That can be a reason of your bad sleep. Another reason it’s high dose of rgh..

 

[Halo01]

Growth hormone induces strong lipolysis at the peak of its maximum concentration. Therefore, it should be injected only before training. And no food at the same time! In this way, you will mimic the natural peaks of your growth hormone.
I already gave a link to a study of growth hormone-induced lipolysis, in the topic about berberine