AAS and Cardiovascular/Pulmonary Function

[solo47]

I gain no water weight, staying lean & muscular.

No, Dr Scally, I have not had a CBC done in some time (to my knowledge), though my last cancer marker BW revealed a high RBC & slightly high liver values. My GP, a Chinese woman who does not seem believe anybody has anything (had to twist her arm for my colonoscopy last year) said my high RBC is to be expected "for someone on steroids," referring to my prescription from a urologist for 100 mg/wk of Test cup. I'll request a CBC from her since she's now very cooperative. Not sure what that will us, however.

Think I will donate blood then have it tossed. Can only do that once however.

The strange about being short of breath or "tired" most of the time izzat I can still do a damned good cardio workout on stairmaster®. It's afterwards I gasp. Same with doing sets. I'm good while doing them, just have to strain to get enough air between sets. Wake up in the night needing more air. Maybe I should get an oxygen tent!

Anyway, I guess I'm pushing my luck, but, hey, I look good!

Solo

 

[solo47]

Good read, Dr Scally: <Overcoming HIV: Polycythemia, Anabolic Steroids and HIV Wasting>

Sounds like I may to have to go off all AAS for a time (as in at least 3 months), including my 100 mg/wk HRT prescription. Scary stuff, this polycythemia from steroids, plus I'm tired of being tired all the time and gasping for air.

But it's pretty damned scary to go off AAS entirely, too. I know you have researched the restoration of the natural HPTA, Dr Scally, but I have some doubts that mine could be readily restored. Without at least HRT levels, I won't be the me I know at all, and that really depresses me even before I begin. Furthermore, without a run of supra-physiologic levels cycles twice a year, I won't be a happy camper and I fear my desire in the gym will wane along with my ability to manage the big weights (not even to mention the decline in libido). I do not want to give up what has become a proud, ingrained lifestyle.

So much for preparing for Xmas at a Mexican resort. My lady won't be happy.

As I mentioned, I can go donate blood and then check the sticker not to use it, but, as I'm sure Doc Scally would agree, that is just a short-term solution. If only I could donate once a month!

I'll see my GP next week and ask for a complete blood count (CBC) to get done, but I don't believe she will know what to do with the numbers when she seems them. I don't want to go to my urologist, because he will refuse to write further testosterone prescriptions for me, at least until the polycythemia is under control. (He won't do phlebotomies, calling them "medieval".) But, then again, he is much more knowledgeable than my GP.

Fuck, I'm stuck — caught between the devil and the deep blue sea!:

Any helpful suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Solow

 

[solo47]

Doesn't aspirin thin the blood, or izzat mythology?

Solo

 

[Dr JIM]

Post exertional SOB makes me think of that heart again (I know but it's what I do as a physician) did your heart check out ok mate prior to surgery?

An increased H&H can be a basis for your symptoms, as DOC has suggested, yea a CBC maybe all you need.


Another thing to consider since we are on that topic, is diastolic dysfunction (one causation for COMPENSATED heart failure) but if I recall correctly your a healthy fella except for "high BP" right?

Or perhaps Solo your no longer in your youth as myself!


Best
Jimmy

 

[Dr JIM]

Oh yea the symptoms "stabilize" for the majority after roughly 3 months (the average lifespan of an RBC) such that only somewhere between 5-10% whom are on TRT "reguire" a therapeutic phlebotomy.

However the difference between TRT and the use of AAS for performance enhancement has not been formally "researched", that I'm aware of. Dr Scally have you seen any studies in that regard?

Nonetheless, I have NOT noticed a significant difference anecdotally in those mates whom are cycling compared to those on formal TRT, especially once the Testosterone dose approximates 500mg/week

jim

 

[Dr JIM]

ASA is a great drug period. However it's use does not result in a reduction in someone's H&H (as in a "blood thinner") unless you develop a GI bleed because of it's use! (The latter was relatively common when aspirin was used for collagen vascular diseases such as Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lupus etc because the dose used was quite high)

Now however GI complications are quite rare since a dose of as little as 80mg QD is more than adequate to reduce platelet "stickiness". In other words the primary use for ASA as a cardiovascular drug is it's ability to reduce INTRAVASCULAR clot formation and ASCVD.

The net effect is the reduction of cardiac events such as a Heart Attack.

jim

 

[solo47]

Oh yea the symptoms "stabilize" for the majority after roughly 3 months (the average lifespan of an RBC) such that only somewhere between 5-10% whom are on TRT "reguire" a therapeutic phlebotomy.

However the difference between TRT and the use of AAS for performance enhancement has not been formally "researched", that I'm aware of. Dr Scally have you seen any studies in that regard?

Nonetheless, I have NOT noticed a significant difference anecdotally in those mates whom are cycling compared to those on formal TRT, especially once the Testosterone dose approximates 500mg/week

jim

Interesting. So the quantity or type of exogenous AAS may not matter. Wonder if higher testosterone from HCG has a similar effect on RBC.

Solo

 

[idmd]

ASA is a great drug period. However it's use does not result in a reduction in someone's H&H (as in a "blood thinner") unless you develop a GI bleed because of it's use! (The latter was relatively common when aspirin was used for collagen vascular diseases such as Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lupus etc because the dose used was quite high)

Now however GI complications are quite rare since a dose of as little as 80mg QD is more than adequate to reduce platelet "stickiness". In other words the primary use for ASA as a cardiovascular drug is it's ability to reduce INTRAVASCULAR clot formation and ASCVD.

The net effect is the reduction of cardiac events such as a Heart Attack.

jim

You see no difference in patients taking 100mg/wk vs 500mg/wk? I find that hard to believe....

 

[solo47]

Jim or Dr Scally, would you think of a home phlebotomy kit?

Seriously.

Solo

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

Jim or Dr Scally, would you think of a home phlebotomy kit?

Seriously.

Solo

I realize the question wasn't directed at me but I have to speak up... That's crazy Solo, just take some time off, your health is more important than your physique.

 

[solo47]

I realize the question wasn't directed at me but I have to speak up... That's crazy Solo, just take some time off, your health is more important than your physique.

I suppose so. On the other hand, it's not all that much crazier than the things many of us are already doing (and spending loads of cash to do so).

Looked like an interesting ad, though. I never knew such things existed.

Solo

 

[Dr JIM]

Hmm HCG v TRT? I've never really reviewed the literature to determine if a difference existed but yy

 

[solo47]

Hmm HCG v TRT? I've never really reviewed the literature to determine if a difference existed but yy

A major part of Doc Scally's HPTA recovery program is fairly massive doses of HCG. But I was thinking that if HCG increases the body's production of testosterone (and it does), wouldn't that exacerbate or at least continue the polycethemia symptoms?

Phlebotomy Kit, 100+ Kits

I'm getting a full CBC workup from my urologist and have a talk with him before I decide anything, but if no testosterone means I become transmogrified into Mr. Magoo then I'm not having it.

Respects,
Solo

 

[MR10X]

A major part of Doc Scally's HPTA recovery program is fairly massive doses of HCG. But I was thinking that if HCG increases the body's production of testosterone (and it does), wouldn't that exacerbate or at least continue the polycethemia symptoms?

Phlebotomy Kit, 100+ Kits

I'm getting a full CBC workup from my urologist and have a talk with him before I decide anything, but if no testosterone means I become transmogrified into Mr. Magoo then I'm not having it.

Respects,
Solo

I havn't had any testerone (TT 32 acording to my last blood work)in over a year due to ADT cancer treatments.Its horrible,and my endo wont do anything about it.

 

[solo47]

I havn't had any testerone (TT 32 acording to my last blood work)in over a year due to ADT cancer treatments.Its horrible,and my endo wont do anything about it.

I sympathize, my friend. It's likely especially bad since you are used to a high test life. Hang in there, is all I can say, and perhaps the endo will give you the go ahead for TRT when he thinks it's safe.

Solo

 

[MR10X]

I sympathize, my friend. It's likely especially bad since you are used to a high test life. Hang in there, is all I can say, and perhaps the endo will give you the go ahead for TRT when he thinks it's safe.

Solo

I asked my onocologist about having a normal test level after the treatments and he didnt have a problem with it. Still looking at other options,i am not going through the rest of my life with no test....They are more than welcome to use me for a study for TRT after PCa if they want,i will have my PSA checked every 6 months to keep an eye on my prostrate.With a 0.1 PSA after treatments i assume they destroyed all the cancer,they used all the latest methods to treat it and it was isolated to my prostrate.Besides i'm 67 and how much longer can i expect to live anyway. I feel lucky to have made it this far......

 

[Michael Scally MD]

A major part of Doc Scally's HPTA recovery program is fairly massive doses of HCG. But I was thinking that if HCG increases the body's production of testosterone (and it does), wouldn't that exacerbate or at least continue the polycethemia symptoms?

I'm getting a full CBC workup from my urologist and have a talk with him before I decide anything, but if no testosterone means I become transmogrified into Mr. Magoo then I'm not having it.

Respects,
Solo

hCG 1,000-2,000 IU are NOT massive doses. In fact, the dose range is optimal for testes stimulation. And, NOT very likely to cause a problem for H/H. Proper monitoring is always a good thing.

 

[solo47]

Minimal to none.

Do you have a CBC?

Once you develop polycythemia, the problem can quickly escalate. When I mean escalate, I mean within weeks or shorter. Herein lies the problem. Red blood cells (RBC) have a half-life of about 120 days. If you were to stop all AAS, it would take a long time for the RBC to decrease where the H/H is normal.

Dr Scally, here are the results of my last CBC blood work-up (July 23/13). Perhaps you or someone who can read these numbers will inform just how badly I have polycythemia, high RBC. I'll only list the numbers that were flagged; everything else was in range:

CHEM
•ALP SERPL - CCNC Result: 45 U/L Ref Range: 48-138

HEM/BC
•HCT FR BLD AUTO Result: 0.54 Ref Range: 0.38-0.50
•HGB BLD-MCNC Result: 181 g/L Ref Range: 133-165
•LYMPHOCYTES # BLD AUTO Result: 0.9 Ref Range: 1.0-4.0
•RBC # BLD AUTO Result: 6.02 tera/L Ref Range: 4.20-5.40

So, do I need to donate blood or just take 120 days off all AAS & test again?

Sorry for pestering you professionals & knowledgeable bros, but my GP really does not understand these things and it will be a while before I get in to see my urologist. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I want to get back at it as soon as I can.

Respects,
Solo

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Dr Scally, here are the results of my last CBC blood work-up (July 23/13). Perhaps you or someone who can read these numbers will inform just how badly I have polycythemia, high RBC. I'll only list the numbers that were flagged; everything else was in range:

CHEM
•ALP SERPL - CCNC Result: 45 U/L Ref Range: 48-138

HEM/BC
•HCT FR BLD AUTO Result: 0.54 Ref Range: 0.38-0.50
•HGB BLD-MCNC Result: 181 g/L Ref Range: 133-165
•LYMPHOCYTES # BLD AUTO Result: 0.9 Ref Range: 1.0-4.0
•RBC # BLD AUTO Result: 6.02 tera/L Ref Range: 4.20-5.40

So, do I need to donate blood or just take 120 days off all AAS & test again?

Sorry for pestering you professionals & knowledgeable bros, but my GP really does not understand these things and it will be a while before I get in to see my urologist. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I want to get back at it as soon as I can.

Respects,
Solo

It's bad enough.


However you deal with this, polycythemia is likely to be an ongoing problem as long as you continue to use TRT/AAS. If you deal with it by stopping TRT temporarily, you'll probably have to do it again in the future. For that reason, I'd be pushing for phlebotomy.

 

[solo47]

It's bad enough.


However you deal with this, polycythemia is likely to be an ongoing problem as long as you continue to use TRT/AAS. If you deal with it by stopping TRT temporarily, you'll probably have to do it again in the future. For that reason, I'd be pushing for phlebotomy.

I got turned down for donating blood because I foolishly mentioned I was on Avodart. But I'm getting advice on a very simple method of doing a home phlebotomy involving a 16g pin, an empty syringe, a transparent hose, and a 500 ml water bottle. An observer or helper is necessary, of course. Easy? The hard part is that 16g pin going into a fucking vein!

I'll probably need to wash my hands too.

Solo