Anabolic Steroids & Liver [GI]

[Greeny]

Ive been using livercare since i started using steroids last year. Im only 25 and have been doing my blood work and taking whatever i can to do things proper. Is it really a waist of money? If so why and is there anything i can take to protect myself?

 

[Ozzy619]

Ive been using livercare since i started using steroids last year. Im only 25 and have been doing my blood work and taking whatever i can to do things proper. Is it really a waist of money? If so why and is there anything i can take to protect myself?

The best thing would be avoid all orals. If you decide to run orals stay away from anthing methylated and keep it at 4 weeks max. Then take a long time off before your next cycle. Alot of guys run liv52 but I think its bullshit. I think alcohol is the worst thing for your liver, how many drinkers take a liver protection?

 

[tubesox]

im swapping my liver out for one of those filters in the aquariums...just suck the blood right from the aorta..BOOM! Robot liver..carry on

 

[Dr JIM]

How about udca/tudca for protection ?

Perhaps you may benefit by reading the ENTIRE thread!

 

[EggheadMuscle]

Perhaps you may benefit by reading the ENTIRE thread!

There is medical literature that supports the use of UDCA in treating steatohepatitis and other liver ailments. Similar with TUDCA - there is some literature to support the use.

From what I've read, you are arguing that there is no benefit in "normal" livers in taking these supplements. But there is no literature on the preventive benefit and there probably never will be. Don't we take aromatase inhibitors prophylactically to combat gynecomastia? It's harder to treat once it's started..... An ounce of prevention....

As far as I've read there's no harmful effects of taking udca/tudca (?). As far as the others, milk thistle etc, the literature seems pretty spotty.

 

[Dr JIM]

There is plenty of data that shows these agents are of no benefit in preventing a variety of hepatic insults but if you choose to use them go for it, I'm sure the pharmaceutical or supplement manufacturers love your line of thinking.

If it doesn't cause harm then why not use it,,,,,,,,bc they aren't free and AAS cycling is expensive enough as is.

Oh incidentally your apples to oranges comparison is mute bc SERMS (rather than AI's) have been PROVEN effective therapy for MALE gynecomastia, while bile salts have NOT been shown to alter the course of drug induced hepatic disease.

 

[EggheadMuscle]

There is plenty of data that shows these agents are of no benefit in preventing a variety of hepatic insults but if you choose to use them go for it, I'm sure the pharmaceutical or supplement manufacturers love your line of thinking.

UDCA preventing drug induced liver injury - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11972649
Drug induced hepatitis treated with corticosteroids and UDCA - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21304237
Viral hepatitis - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12804455
Alcohol induced liver injury - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9644931
Chronic biliary disease - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25543678
Etc etc.

But we could trade PubMed citations till the cows come home. You don't believe in it. Ok. Certainly more literature about UDCA/TUDCA than milk thistle though.

 

[Dr JIM]

UDCA preventing drug induced liver injury - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11972649
Drug induced hepatitis treated with corticosteroids and UDCA - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21304237
Viral hepatitis - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12804455
Alcohol induced liver injury - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9644931
Chronic biliary disease - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25543678
Etc etc.

But we could trade PubMed citations till the cows come home. You don't believe in it. Ok. Certainly more literature about UDCA/TUDCA than milk thistle though.

I suppose you reviewed the abstracts bc these studies reinforce what I've said on multiple occasions, although the use of certain liver protectors may modulate absolute changes in LFT's NONE have been shown to alter outcome.

(Incidentally did you take notice the frequency of "hepatopathy" in patients with prostatic CA using the ANTI-ANDROGEN Flutamide were IDENTICAL for roughly the first 100 days of therapy. I do hope folks are not using oral AAS for more than 6 weeks fella)

And if a medicine is not being used to improve the Mortality or overall prognosis what is the point of therapy, excluding relief of troubling symptoms as in those patients with PBC.

The ONLY therapy proven to reverse drug induced hepatopathy is removal of the offending agent. And if you believe this reversal can be accomplished by the use of bile salts alone, the "cows have already arrived home".

 

[heady muscle]

reishi mushroom and the liver:
http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0192415X01000526

bump

 

[EggheadMuscle]

I suppose you reviewed the abstracts bc these studies reinforce what I've said on multiple occasions, although the use of certain liver protectors may modulate absolute changes in LFT's NONE have been shown to alter outcome.

Not true. Some studies do show better outcome for patients treated with bile salts.

The ONLY therapy proven to reverse drug induced hepatopathy is removal of the offending agent. And if you believe this reversal can be accomplished by the use of bile salts alone, the "cows have already arrived home".

Yes, the offending agent needs to be removed. That doesn't mean that the damage cannot be minimized on cycle and afterwards does it?

 

[Dr JIM]

bump

An improved outcome hmm post even ONE! Please no apples to oranges comparisons.

 

[Dr JIM]

Not true. Some studies do show better outcome for patients treated with bile salts.


Yes, the offending agent needs to be removed. That doesn't mean that the damage cannot be minimized on cycle and afterwards does it?

Hmm an improved outcome post ONE fella. And please no apples to oranges comparisons.

 

[EggheadMuscle]

Improved outcome for patients with PBC, one abstract but there are many articles on PubMed - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24927602
I'm not going to pull them all out for you.
Not sure if you meant your statement to be so general as "outcome".
Anyway, you don't believe it works. OK. Fine. I'm done.

 

[Dr JIM]

Excepting those patients with "mild disease" there is NO EVIDENCE bike salts change the course of patients with PBC, they ALL eventually REQUIRE a liver transplant for definitive therapy and BS do NOT alter that fact.

They have only been effective in treating the SYMPTOMS of PBC, PURITIES in particular but the CAUSE of PBC is NOT treated with bile salts, period.

Now let's see the evidence bike salts alter their prognosis, bc there is NONE!

Good luck I'll waste my time no longer.

 

[boodecarlo]

im swapping my liver out for one of those filters in the aquariums...just suck the blood right from the aorta..BOOM! Robot liver..carry on

Or use a watman filter.

 

[Notits]

Or use a watman filter.

@boodecarlo wins.

.22?

 

[boodecarlo]

@boodecarlo wins.

.22?

It's hard work being this dumb haha

 

[Drea'An]

I did a search for the best liver supplements to use. I purchased what I think would be the best of the lot. I mixed them all together and it all come to 2lb. I went to the VA Medical Center for my usual blood testing and liver values were good. My doctor was so impressed with the result of the test. She replied, "You're doing fine". She's concerned about my liver values. Previously, in the 70's to low 90's! Now with my concoction, the readings are in the lower 30's. I also take milk thistle at 1,000mg. a day.

 

[jamescaprico]

Good on you. Theres nothing wrong in supplementing with milk thistle even if your not a aas user. A night out drinking does more damage than a dose of A-50. Isnt that something to think about.. Of course A-50 induces other sides.

Milk thistle can also be found in some vitamin powders that you can mix in with your shakes with the added benefit of the extra vitamins and minerals. Toxicity could be a concern.. depending on how many shakes you take down and whats in your protein powder to begin with.

I did a search for the best liver supplements to use. I purchased what I think would be the best of the lot. I mixed them all together and it all come to 2lb. I went to the VA Medical Center for my usual blood testing and liver values were good. My doctor was so impressed with the result of the test. She replied, "You're doing fine". She's concerned about my liver values. Previously, in the 70's to low 90's! Now with my concoction, the readings are in the lower 30's. I also take milk thistle at 1,000mg. a day.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Carson P, Hong CJ, Otero-Vinas M, Arsenault EF, Falanga V. Liver Enzymes and Lipid Levels in Patients With Lipodermatosclerosis and Venous Ulcers Treated With a Prototypic Anabolic Steroid (Stanozolol): A Prospective, Randomized, Double-Blinded, Placebo-Controlled Trial. Int J Low Extrem Wounds. http://ijl.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/01/30/1534734614562276.abstract

Anabolic steroids have been used to treat lower extremity ulcerations, including venous and cryofibrinogenemic ulcers and lipodermatosclerosis (LDS). Yet there have been no studies to determine the severity and reversibility of side effects of anabolic steroids on liver enzymes and lipid profiles in elderly patients.

We therefore evaluated, in a prospective, randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial, the extent and reversibility of abnormal liver enzymes and lipid profiles in patients with LDS and venous leg ulcers treated with stanozolol at 2 mg twice daily for up to 6 months. Follow-up laboratory testing was done for 2 months after cessation of treatment.

A total of 44 patients with LDS and venous ulcers were enrolled and treated with either leg compression alone (placebo) or leg compression plus oral stanozolol 2 mg twice daily (active). Baseline and follow-up laboratory testing of liver enzymes and lipid profiles were obtained. A total of 21 active and 23 placebo patients were treated and evaluated.

We measured liver enzymes (aspartate aminotransferase [AST/SGOT], alanine aminotransferase [ALT/SGPT], gamma-glutamyl transferase [GGT]) and lipid profile components (high-density lipoprotein [HDL], low-density lipoprotein [LDL], total cholesterol) before, during, and after the treatment period.

We found that AST/SGOT and ALT/SGPT became significantly elevated in 29% (P = .0415 at 2 months) and 33% (P = .0182 at 1 month) of patients treated with stanozolol or placebo, respectively, with return to baseline in the posttreatment period.

Unexpectedly, 91% of patients on stanozolol developed a significant (P < .0001) decrease in HDL levels, by as much as 37 U/L. All patients remained asymptomatic and levels returned to baseline after discontinuation of the drug.

We conclude that low-dose stanozolol, 2 mg twice daily, produces asymptomatic and temporary elevation of liver transaminases and depression of the HDL level in a significant proportion of patients.