Arent we mistaken about DNP?

[Petarosus188]

Hey guys,
I was thinking for a while.... arent we confused about DNP. What I mean is dosage!
You can find out literature from the very beginning recommending very high doses....and thats combined with Dan Duchaine recommending going up to 1000mgs. All of these crazy doses are associated with extreme fat burning effects...combined with terrible potential side effects.

Now for a second imagine...if Duchaine would do something like that with Clen. He would introduce it to BBing industry, and would recommend starting at 160 - 200 mcgs!!! Yes we would see very aggressive fat burning and thermogenic effects...combined with terrible side effects!!

Why not just use 100mgs? Molecule still exerts its effects.....of course not so drastically fast....but with much less side effects. Why arent we just patient and use dose...that I read recently, with Vitamin C will probably not exert any cataractogenic effects? Just 100mgs of DNP; 25mgs of Ephedrine and later little T3 to combat suppresion caused by DNP...and use it longer.

What do you guys think?

Also one question: Did anybody here (male) actually developed cataracts?

 

[BigTomJ]

Fat cannot be used for "fast energy" source metabolically. Your body will burn muscle if it needs glucosis quickly.

see my above post about proper dieting practices

 

[ShredSeason]

Idea is :Why not use a compound that shifts metabolism towards burning fats, and not glucosis or aminoacids

We already have much safer compounds to do this with, testosterone and HGH are wonderful for favoring fat loss and protecting LBM. I really don’t think DNP would be the silver bullet you’re thinking it is in this regard.

Your idea is an interesting one, but it falls apart once you factor in training intensity. You will not be training as hard or effectively on DNP. If preserving muscle is the main goal, why not use safer compounds that will aid in recovery and intensity instead of hindering it?

Long term you would have huge difference with minimal side effects (on 100mg).

How long term are we talking? In the original studies, they saw dramatic tolerance increases and had to continue increasing the dose or removing DNP entirely for a couple weeks at a time. I do agree with you that if the standard dose had always been 100-150 mg, the drug’s history would have been much different. It’s an interesting thought. The funny thing is, even at low doses like that, it would still be the most effective fat burner. A sustained 10-15% increase in BMR is massive.

 

[Petarosus188]

see my above post about proper dieting practices

Hey,
Well as proper advice you are giving as far as dieting...lets be honest and real here.
Even then you cannot control what tissues are used for energy...Thats why bodybuilders take drugs.
Lets flip it: Two individuals with same goals and physique....they stick to your (correct) dieting advice....but one has to take moderate to high dose of glucocorticoids for some medical condition.
There you go- we both know that guy with corticoids is gonna be losing muscle WAY MORE, than fat- Its why we take hormones in a first place...

We as bbers have multiple fat burners at our disposal. Some increase energy output, others cause fat mobilization (not necessarily oxidation). But, and correct me if Im wrong, we ONLY have DNP that can FORCE human metabolism to use fat for energy and not glucosis. Nobody would even mess with this poison if it wasnt so unique....

 

[Petarosus188]

We already have much safer compounds to do this with, testosterone and HGH are wonderful for favoring fat loss and protecting LBM. I really don’t think DNP would be the silver bullet you’re thinking it is in this regard.

Your idea is an interesting one, but it falls apart once you factor in training intensity. You will not be training as hard or effectively on DNP. If preserving muscle is the main goal, why not use safer compounds that will aid in recovery and intensity instead of hindering it?

How long term are we talking? In the original studies, they saw dramatic tolerance increases and had to continue increasing the dose or removing DNP entirely for a couple weeks at a time. I do agree with you that if the standard dose had always been 100-150 mg, the drug’s history would have been much different. It’s an interesting thought. The funny thing is, even at low doses like that, it would still be the most effective fat burner. A sustained 10-15% increase in BMR is massive.

Just Imagine if Duchaine would come up with starting dose of Clen to be 160 mcgs....it would have the same terrible reputation or worse than DNP....It seems like stupidity of recommending these doses for DNP...

 

[BigTomJ]

We as bbers have multiple fat burners at our disposal. Some increase energy output, others cause fat mobilization (not necessarily oxidation). But, and correct me if Im wrong, we ONLY have DNP that can FORCE human metabolism to use fat for energy and not glucosis. Nobody would even mess with this poison if it wasnt so unique....

thats because all the novelty of DNP is entirely irrelevant, its a moot point when dieting properly.

again, there is a reason that basically zero bodybuilders or coaches use DNP.
Even for natural guys, it provides ZERO benefit in the long term.

DNP is for the misinformed, week willed, or impatient.

If any of those apply to you, have at it, im not your dad, but we arent going to sit here and pretend that its an intelligent choice

 

[BigTomJ]

Just Imagine if Duchaine would come up with starting dose of Clen to be 160 mcgs....it would have the same terrible reputation or worse than DNP....It seems like stupidity of recommending these doses for DNP...

Dan duchaine is a hack and a charlatan. why do you keep bringing him up?

 

[narta]

Dan duchaine is a hack and a charlatan. why do you keep bringing him up?

Dan Duchain had forgotten more than you ever know in your life about PEDs.

 

[BigTomJ]

Dan Duchain had forgotten more than you ever know in your life about PEDs.

your comment made me go back and verify who im thinking of.
I was actually mixxing him up with some other "guru"
I actually own a copy of the USH, it was a good peek into how things were early on.

however, admittedly, i dont know anything about what methodologies or protocol he promoted outside of the historic info in the USH

im not sure the name of the clown im thinking of

 

[eery]

your comment made me go back and verify who im thinking of.
I was actually mixxing him up with some other "guru"
I actually own a copy of the USH, it was a good peek into how things were early on.

however, admittedly, i dont know anything about what methodologies or protocol he promoted outside of the historic info in the USH

im not sure the name of the clown im thinking of

tony hughe of enhanced athlete? I wouldnt consider that guy a guru though.

afaik, dan duchaine is a legend.

 

[BigTomJ]

tony hughe of enhanced athlete? I wouldnt consider that guy a guru though.

afaik, dan duchaine is a legend.

It mighty have been.

guy im thinking of im pretty sure was known for insane high dosages, was a low carb zealot, and was a woefully unsuccessful bodybuilder themselves and never coached anyone either.

basically all talk.

i know that description doesnt exactly narrow it down

 

[Petarosus188]

thats because all the novelty of DNP is entirely irrelevant, its a moot point when dieting properly.

again, there is a reason that basically zero bodybuilders or coaches use DNP.
Even for natural guys, it provides ZERO benefit in the long term.

DNP is for the misinformed, week willed, or impatient.

If any of those apply to you, have at it, im not your dad, but we arent going to sit here and pretend that its an intelligent choice

Outside of not really adressing anything I wrote....There are plenty of coaches using it, they are just not public about it. Supposedly Porter and early Jansen were big proponents, until Porter killed one of his clients. In top, top levels people mocked Farrah for some history with it (but possibly just bad rumours).

 

[BigTomJ]

Outside of not really adressing anything I wrote....There are plenty of coaches using it, they are just not public about it. Supposedly Porter and early Jansen were big proponents, until Porter killed one of his clients. In top, top levels people mocked Farrah for some history with it (but possibly just bad rumours).

I personally know several high level competitors, including several Olympia qualified competitors, as well as several of their coaches.

I dont know of a single one that uses DNP or includes DNP ion their prep protocol, protocols that i have personally seen written out.

I trust my real world experiences in the sport over forum hearsay.

 

[Petarosus188]

I personally know several high level competitors, including several Olympia qualified competitors, as well as several of their coaches.

I dont know of a single one that uses DNP or includes DNP ion their prep protocol, protocols that i have personally seen written out.

I trust my real world experiences in the sport over forum hearsay.

I believe you...There is honestly ZERO reason to use it on people with good genetics. ZERO. You have people that even have problems eating enough getting ready for Olympia (Roman Fritz, William Bonac).
Also BTW Im scared to death of cataracts, Im not using it myself and not recommend anybody do it. This post is brainstorming...since so many people on this forum played with it....

 

[ShamelessQuestions86]

I don't particularly remember the study, I can find it if you don't believe me or care to hear me speak. But the use of up to 300mg of dnp was actually amino acid sparing even in the presence of insufficient protein intake at 30% metabolism increase (via the nitrogen piss test).

So technically yes, you are in a hurry if you need DNP, however. In theory wouldn't it work most optimally on a 2 week mini cut protocol? Losing 7-14 pounds in 2 weeks instead of 6-12 would literally let you bulk for so many more months. But then again. You have to "come off" eventually, so why not use the 6-12 weeks to clear out aye?

 

[Petarosus188]

I don't particularly remember the study, I can find it if you don't believe me or care to hear me speak. But the use of up to 300mg of dnp was actually amino acid sparing even in the presence of insufficient protein intake at 30% metabolism increase (via the nitrogen piss test).

So technically yes, you are in a hurry if you need DNP, however. In theory wouldn't it work most optimally on a 2 week mini cut protocol? Losing 7-14 pounds in 2 weeks instead of 6-12 would literally let you bulk for so many more months. But then again. You have to "come off" eventually, so why not use the 6-12 weeks to clear out aye?

DNP is actually amino acid sparring yes...thats the thing...its only thing trully forcing body to use fats as energy. Lot of muscle gets lost, by body turning amino acids into glucosis and using it for energy (gluconeogenesis).

 

[BigTomJ]

I believe you...There is honestly ZERO reason to use it on people with good genetics. ZERO. You have people that even have problems eating enough getting ready for Olympia (Roman Fritz, William Bonac).
Also BTW Im scared to death of cataracts, Im not using it myself and not recommend anybody do it. This post is brainstorming...since so many people on this forum played with it....

Again, like i said before, im no one here's daddy.
everyone here are (presumably) adults that can make their own informed decision.

my contribution to that informed decision is that my position is that DNP is:
1) Highly overrated in its novel effects and efficacy
2) not commonly used by those who make getting as lean as possible a competitive priority.
3) unnecessary for absolutely any intelligent cutting scenario other than for those that are simply wildly impatient or lack the discipline to execute long term.


again, as per genetic fat loss factors, any leverages that DNP may provide are wildly overshadowed by proper dieting and training practices.

the variance in individual propensity for fat loss is not as wide as you might think and most of the perceived variance we see in gen pop is a result of differences in practices, rather than a difference in genetic components.

If you want to use DNP, have at it, you will get results faster. But my firm belief is that you will, without a doubt, achieve better results (albeit slower) with more conventional, proper fat loss practices.

 

[ShamelessQuestions86]

DNP is actually amino acid sparring yes...thats the thing...its only thing trully forcing body to use fats as energy. Lot of muscle gets lost, by body turning amino acids into glucosis and using it for energy (gluconeogenesis).

If you believe in rapid fat loss, which I do. You can use a simple formula or google Martin Mcdonald RFL.

Basically it's this:
BF divded by 15 or 20 = #
# as a % multiplied by BW = Pounds you can lose weekly
AKA
15 / 15 = 1
1% * 200 = 2lbs weekly.

Assuming you are enhanced, you can 1.5 or even 2x the amount, due to gear load (unless you are a brickhouse)

Then with DNP you can assume you can lose yet another 1.5 or 2x and you can then lose roughly 5-7 pounds a week. But people say you can lose even more than that with a 9;1 or 8:2 muscle sparing ratio. (bro science ratio from experience / fourms)
---
I don't condone DNP use, but I will say personally I have used HIGH doses with no issue, but I've titrated up since 200mg and weighed each pill myself, also I dosed AM/PM after 750mg because that started to become "alot".

The only legitimate concerns I have now are Cataracts (which can be avoided with vitamin C/E but I am lazy admittedly, and gene transcription, but ultimately it seems the gene transcription is actually a net positive, as scientists are currently trying to undergo a way to get all of the benefits of DNP without the whole 1000mg+ might kill you thing.

 

[Petarosus188]

Again, like i said before, im no one here's daddy.
everyone here are (presumably) adults that can make their own informed decision.

my contribution to that informed decision is that my position is that DNP is:
1) Highly overrated in its novel effects and efficacy
2) not commonly used by those who make getting as lean as possible a competitive priority.
3) unnecessary for absolutely any intelligent cutting scenario other than for those that are simply wildly impatient or lack the discipline to execute long term.


again, as per genetic fat loss factors, any leverages that DNP may provide are wildly overshadowed by proper dieting and training practices.

the variance in individual propensity for fat loss is not as wide as you might think and most of the perceived variance we see in gen pop is a result of differences in practices, rather than a difference in genetic components.

If you want to use DNP, have at it, you will get results faster. But my firm belief is that you will, without a doubt, achieve better results (albeit slower) with more conventional, proper fat loss practices.

Oh I coached multiple people before covid BS. When it comes to competitors- YES actually in CZ all of mine had best condition on a stage actually, and we never used DNP. With that being said, I did encounter people with variability of basicly losing fat at half of the rate of normal person...and people that stay lean year round. One needs at least 16 weeks diet before a show and was a struggle....another one 12 weeks was over kill. I dont recommend DNP to anybody, but I have seen first hand pretty significant differences in peoples genetics for getting lean...

Side note: LOT of people in CZ use meth last 4-5 weeks as fat burner and appetite supressor. I never did, never recommended it....but, just as pretty hardcore national affinity of Czech Republic......

 

[Petarosus188]

If you believe in rapid fat loss, which I do. You can use a simple formula or google Martin Mcdonald RFL.

Basically it's this:
BF divded by 15 or 20 = #
# as a % multiplied by BW = Pounds you can lose weekly
AKA
15 / 15 = 1
1% * 200 = 2lbs weekly.

Assuming you are enhanced, you can 1.5 or even 2x the amount, due to gear load (unless you are a brickhouse)

Then with DNP you can assume you can lose yet another 1.5 or 2x and you can then lose roughly 5-7 pounds a week. But people say you can lose even more than that with a 9;1 or 8:2 muscle sparing ratio. (bro science ratio from experience / fourms)
---
I don't condone DNP use, but I will say personally I have used HIGH doses with no issue, but I've titrated up since 200mg and weighed each pill myself, also I dosed AM/PM after 750mg because that started to become "alot".

The only legitimate concerns I have now are Cataracts (which can be avoided with vitamin C/E but I am lazy admittedly, and gene transcription, but ultimately it seems the gene transcription is actually a net positive, as scientists are currently trying to undergo a way to get all of the benefits of DNP without the whole 1000mg+ might kill you thing.

I read in Germany they try to avoid cataracts in studies using 200mgs and high amount of INJECTABLE vitamin C. I dont know if caps are trully enough... again we are already speculating in my opinion.

 

[ShredSeason]

I personally know several high level competitors, including several Olympia qualified competitors, as well as several of their coaches.

I dont know of a single one that uses DNP or includes DNP ion their prep protocol, protocols that i have personally seen written out.

I trust my real world experiences in the sport over forum hearsay.

Could you explain the bodybuilders not using DNP thing a little more? You guys cut to insane body fat percentages, I’ve heard many stories of bodybuilders fucking up their timing and being behind on a cut, few weeks out from their deadline and they know they gotta drop more than they normally could. Why wouldn’t DNP be deployed at this point? If it’s a show that’s really important to them, why not go for it?

Definitely not trying to argue against what you said, I’m obviously not in the space, just trying to understand the sport better and DNP’s effects on people that are this lean and muscular.