Attempting to discontinue/pct after 20 months on trt

[The Terminator]

About 2 weeks after last trt dose. YES you feel it, and your reminded why you started doing trt, lethargy,ed probs even bouts with depression.

That’s what a lot of guys said, that you’ll feel like shit by the 10-15 day mark, but today is day 22 and I still feel fine. I mean I don’t feel as good as I did around day 9-17 but I’m pretty sure it’s from the AI I took. I was able to feel good with T levels in the 200’s and 300’s that could be why I feel ok.

 

[The Terminator]

Hey @T-Bagger as a scholar/enthusiast/lover of all things testicular and scrotal I thought you’d be fascinated by this. Earlier today I had a case of bilateral retractile testicles lol. Besides the obvious cold, when I get anxious, nervous or eager/excited to do something my balls get tight, but today I couldn’t even feel them, they were both inside my pelvis..not too deep cause I could still feel the tubes.

I mean I can push my right ball back inside but this is the first time I’ve noticed them retracting on their own. Pretty trippy lol. Only lasted at most an 1.5 hrs prob less, by the time I got home they were back out. Actually it may have happened before..I guess an overactive cremaster muscle can cause the sack to retract hard enough the balls can get pulled up.

Anyway thought you’d wanna know this ASAP so that you can add it to your testicular research files

 

[T-Bagger]

Hey @T-Bagger as a scholar/enthusiast/lover of all things testicular and scrotal I thought you’d be fascinated by this. Earlier today I had a case of bilateral retractile testicles lol. Besides the obvious cold, when I get anxious, nervous or eager/excited to do something my balls get tight, but today I couldn’t even feel them, they were both inside my pelvis..not too deep cause I could still feel the tubes.

I mean I can push my right ball back inside but this is the first time I’ve noticed them retracting on their own. Pretty trippy lol. Only lasted at most an 1.5 hrs prob less, by the time I got home they were back out. Actually it may have happened before..I guess an overactive cremaster muscle can cause the sack to retract hard enough the balls can get pulled up.

Anyway thought you’d wanna know this ASAP so that you can add it to your testicular research files

My testes get cold all the time and retract a lot. Then I’m left with that shriveled sack BS. I hate it, because then it makes that cyst look even bigger.

 

[The Terminator]

My testes get cold all the time and retract a lot. Then I’m left with that shriveled sack BS. I hate it, because then it makes that cyst look even bigger.

Ah lol yeah I’d imagine the tight sack look would make the cyst stand out more. But do your balls actually basically leave your sack when that happens?

 

[TRT@40]

@TRT@40 you were on hCG mono-therapy for awhile, do you remember what your LH/FSH levels were? Curious to see if hCG suppresses them to untraceable levels like trt does or if there was still some that shows up. I know @Worf said his LH was around ~2 on mono-therapy.

Hi brother, I will check my records when I get home tonight and let you know. But I do remember I was on HCG 1000IUs 3x a week, my test levels rose to around 700 compared 200 before HCG monotherapy. But estrogen was really high...

 

[The Terminator]

Hi brother, I will check my records when I get home tonight and let you know. But I do remember I was on HCG 1000IUs 3x a week, my test levels rose to around 700 compared 200 before HCG monotherapy. But estrogen was really high...

I appreciate it! I’ve been curious how detrimental occasional low dose hCG is once someone goes on serms, it’s helpful to see others LH/FSH when on hCG.

 

[TRT@40]

I appreciate it! I’ve been curious how detrimental occasional low dose hCG is once someone goes on serms, it’s helpful to see others LH/FSH when on hCG.

My blood work from 2017 shows LH and FSH were both less than 1 when I was on HCG monotherapy with 1000ius EOD. My LH was in the middle of the normal range and FSH was at low end of the normal range before I started HCG monotherapy. Since HCG is analouge to LH, it makes sense body would stop producing LH when on HCG injection. I don't really understand why FSH would be low on HCG injection but there is definitely inversely proportional relationship between the two.

 

[The Terminator]

My blood work from 2017 shows LH and FSH were both less than 1 when I was on HCG monotherapy with 1000ius EOD. My LH was in the middle of the normal range and FSH was at low end of the normal range before I started HCG monotherapy. Since HCG is analouge to LH, it makes sense body would stop producing LH when on HCG injection. I don't really understand why FSH would be low on HCG injection but there is definitely inversely proportional relationship between the two.

LH/FSH go hand in hand, thought maybe since hCG is causing your body to make all the hormones and because you’d only make as much as the body can make there would still be a traceable level of LH/FSH. Maybe since you didn’t use any AI and had higher E levels, not a of blood work examples on the forums with just hCG or hCG + clomid so I appreciate you sharing your results.

Maybe hCG at lower doses wouldn’t have as much affect on LH/FSH especially with serms but I think in my case I might as well avoid hCG and stick to clomid. Kind of wish I used more hCG, think I only used 2000-3000iu of hCG in the 2-3 weeks after stopping my trt, now at 23 days, but I’ve also been using hCG the last 8 months and I’ve been at 1000-1500iu per week the last few months, never gone lower than 700iu/wk so maybe I didn’t need a lot. Last several days been on just clomid/tamoxifen and have yet to feel bad since stopping, only felt off when I tried taking AI..

Anyway thank you for sharing, it’s helped me decide to stick with serms for now.

 

[Juicemonkeygear]

Here’s a few studies/articles that will be helpful to anyone in a similar situation, especially if fertility is a concern. Whether you want to pct off completely, pct temporarily until you get your SO pregnant, or wish to continue trt/aas but wish to be fertile or improve your chances when the time comes these studies will be useful.

Recovery of spermatogenesis following testosterone replacement therapy or anabolic-androgenic steroid use


Indications for the use of human chorionic gonadotropic hormone for the management of infertility in hypogonadal men

Preserving fertility in the hypogonadal patient: an update

Great read I appreciate you posting this study. Definitely looks like ongoing hcg treatment is the way to go for maintaining fertility. Now if blasting and cruising and during the cruise it's TRT dose of say 1cc weekly how would the hcg administration differ? Would you still run hcg on a blast?

 

[The Terminator]

Great read I appreciate you posting this study. Definitely looks like ongoing hcg treatment is the way to go for maintaining fertility. Now if blasting and cruising and during the cruise it's TRT dose of say 1cc weekly how would the hcg administration differ? Would you still run hcg on a blast?

Like how much hCG to run on a cruise vs. blast, I would definitely continue using it on blast as well. Hard to say if you should change the dose on blast, if it’s stuff like T, Masteron etc I don’t think it really makes a difference but nandrolone, Tren or similar might be different since they might be worse on fertility than T. When I was on Tren recently even on hCG my semen got super weak pressure and pasty, hCG without Tren on trt helped it to be closer to normal. Not very scientific lol but that could be a sign of reduced ITT levels maybe.

I guess if you take Tren you could try a slightly higher dose, or just keep it constant. Only way to know for sure would be getting semen analysis before and during. What I can say for sure is id use it during both the b and c.

 

[The Terminator]

Ok got some blood work done, not as bad as I was expecting but not as good as I was hoping for either:

Testosterone: ~240ng/dL
Free Testosterone: 50pg/mL
SHBG: 29nmol/L
LH: 3 m[IU]/mL
FSH: 3 m[IU]/mL
Prolactin: 7ng/mL
TSH: 1.404 u[IU]/mL

Forgot to request E2, and full thyroid panel, everything else was normal except glucose was 108, kinda concerning, need to get berberine, maybe metaformin, definitely better diet. I did eat a lot of pasta but I believe 10-11 hrs had passed.

These numbers are 24 days post injection, not sure what to make of the LH/FSH numbers, thought they’d be higher than 3, perhaps my last doses of hCG I did last Thursday, Friday and Saturday or technically Sunday at 1-2am still had a lingering effect? Probably did a combined 1000-2000iu in those days so perhaps it was still kinda suppressing. My tamoxifen is 100% real as it’s from a local pharmacy, the clomid is supposed to be pharma from a source..

If anyone has any insight I’m all ears. For what it’s worth I feel good, my libido is good, no ed, had morning wood yesterday when I tested and I swear my balls look a tiny bit bigger. Only thing I’ve noticed is a little loss in strength and stamina in the gym but aside from that no loss of energy, mentally I feel as good, maybe slightly better than the last 2 weeks on trt..

Anyway not sure if I should continue with the serms, got an order from Turkish that should arrive any day now, or whether I should blast hCG and then restart serms..

 

[TRT@40]

Like how much hCG to run on a cruise vs. blast, I would definitely continue using it on blast as well. Hard to say if you should change the dose on blast, if it’s stuff like T, Masteron etc I don’t think it really makes a difference but nandrolone, Tren or similar might be different since they might be worse on fertility than T. When I was on Tren recently even on hCG my semen got super weak pressure and pasty, hCG without Tren on trt helped it to be closer to normal. Not very scientific lol but that could be a sign of reduced ITT levels maybe.

I guess if you take Tren you could try a slightly higher dose, or just keep it constant. Only way to know for sure would be getting semen analysis before and during. What I can say for sure is id use it during both the b and c.

Even testosterone at TRT doses of 200mg/wk can cause infertility for some men.
I agree with you, The Terminator, if one desires to preserve fertility it is best to use HCG of 300-500iu EOD whether on a blast or cruise since it is intratesticular testosterone that is important for sperm production and health.
Here is one paper on the topic:
Indications for the use of human chorionic gonadotropic hormone for the management of infertility in hypogonadal men

 

[The Terminator]

Day 28, still feeling ok, I upped my clomid to 100mg and tamoxifen 40mg (was at 50mg/10mg), will check again this Friday to see where I’m at, not expecting to see a massive increase in only a week, just want to see if it’s going up or down. May go back on the hCG for a bit then come back to serms depending on results.

As far as feels go, I feel fine, felt slightly more fatigued since upping the serms but could also be from less caffeine, felt depressed yesterday but I think that was blood sugar cause I felt instantly better after eating fruit. Libido is ok, not as high as it at around the 14 day mark when I was still using hCG, no ED but last couple days it takes slightly longer to get it up, a viagra fixes that. Libido/boners aren’t the best for determining hormones ime

 

[TRT@40]

Day 28, still feeling ok, I upped my clomid to 100mg and tamoxifen 40mg (was at 50mg/10mg), will check again this Friday to see where I’m at, not expecting to see a massive increase in only a week, just want to see if it’s going up or down. May go back on the hCG for a bit then come back to serms depending on results.

As far as feels go, I feel fine, felt slightly more fatigued since upping the serms but could also be from less caffeine, felt depressed yesterday but I think that was blood sugar cause I felt instantly better after eating fruit. Libido is ok, not as high as it at around the 14 day mark when I was still using hCG, no ED but last couple days it takes slightly longer to get it up, a viagra fixes that. Libido/boners aren’t the best for determining hormones ime

Hey brah, what were you levels just before you started TRT? I read through your posts but could see it perhaps I am mistaken. My test levels were around 200 before I started. And I was told by members here and Dr. Jim that my natural level will not go higher with pct and hcg than whay they were before TRT.

There is also triptorelin one time injection that is supposed to help. Accurate dosing is cruitial as too much it can castrate a man!

Also, would you please summarize the pct protocol you have followed so far and what you will continue with?

 

[The Terminator]

Hey brah, what were you levels just before you started TRT? I read through your posts but could see it perhaps I am mistaken. My test levels were around 200 before I started. And I was told by members here and Dr. Jim that my natural level will not go higher with pct and hcg than whay they were before TRT.

There is also triptorelin one time injection that is supposed to help. Accurate dosing is cruitial as too much it can castrate a man!

Also, would you please summarize the pct protocol you have followed so far and what you will continue with?

It was pretty low before I started trt in August 2017, it was ~240 in May (pretty sure it may have been higher at times) and then ~130 the day I started and a couple 160s 2 years earlier, had some depressing stuff happen that summer which probably tanked it. Unfortunately my dr didn’t check LH/FSH or E levels and I didn’t know anything back then. I was also an obese sedentary heavy drug user, opioids and benzos. I quit the benzos a year before trt and but I was still on high dose suboxone, which they say doesn’t effect hormones like morphine but I think it still does.

Now that I’m not obese, workout and don’t use a bunch of drugs I figured it’s worth a shot.

I started low at 50mg clomid and 10mg tamoxifen, but the last week I upped it to 100mg/40mg. About to go get another blood test but I’m probably going to go back on hCG since I only used low doses the 1st cpl weeks, ~1000iu/wk. I think it might be wise to do the hCG since I had atrophy, I used it the last 8 months of trt but I feel it’s not as effective with roids in the system, especially Tren which I used before coming off. Last week I tested ~240 (weird it’s always a # with a 0), LH/FSH both 3. Felt fine tho, started feeling a bit weird when I upped serms. Going to quest right after i post for another test.

 

[The Terminator]

I know many say pct won’t permanently fix things, but I know some drs try low dose clomid if the low T wasn’t primary, and I read a few success stories. I’d rather be on hCG or low dose clomid if I had to use something. Might get triptorelin from the Pharmacist to have incase, think 0.1mg or 100mcg is the dose, higher would cause temporary castration, you could just go on trt if that happened.

If nothing works and low dose clomid or hCG mono-therapy don’t work I’ll do both hCG and low dose fsh or hmg with trt, like 15-30iu/wk. Standard dose is 75iu eod or 3x/wk. Figure it’s the closest you can get to normal testicular function on trt, both LH and FSH stimulation. In fact when I resume hCG for a bit on my pct I’m keeping the clomid for fsh since I think that’s important for restoring size, at least I read in puberty fsh is what increases size.

 

[TRT@40]

I know many say pct won’t permanently fix things, but I know some drs try low dose clomid if the low T wasn’t primary, and I read a few success stories. I’d rather be on hCG or low dose clomid if I had to use something. Might get triptorelin from the Pharmacist to have incase, think 0.1mg or 100mcg is the dose, higher would cause temporary castration, you could just go on trt if that happened.

If nothing works and low dose clomid or hCG mono-therapy don’t work I’ll do both hCG and low dose fsh or hmg with trt, like 15-30iu/wk. Standard dose is 75iu eod or 3x/wk. Figure it’s the closest you can get to normal testicular function on trt, both LH and FSH stimulation. In fact when I resume hCG for a bit on my pct I’m keeping the clomid for fsh since I think that’s important for restoring size, at least I read in puberty fsh is what increases size.

With all the positive life style changes you have made, brother, you stand a good chance of getting your natural test production higher than pre TRT. Wish you the best!
I will try your approach in the coming winter for the first and last time to see if I can get my natural test production near the middle of normal range

 

[The Terminator]

With all the positive life style changes you have made, brother, you stand a good chance of getting your natural test production higher than pre TRT. Wish you the best!
I will try your approach in the coming winter for the first and last time to see if I can get my natural test production near the middle of normal range

Thank you brother, appreciate the support. Honestly I’m not expecting to have levels like 800+, I’d be satisfied with 400s or just feeling good. I have no reason to believe I have a congenital low T issue, I had libido even at age 5 lol, never had issues with secondary sexual development, had more facial hair than most of this board by age 15, was able to get buff with a crappy unstructured workout routine back then, but years of drug use, inactivity and sugar eventually takes its toll. I’m prepared to give it time, like longer than normal hCG or clomid use if necessary, heard others need a few months of like 12.5-25mg clomid before things worked out. I’ll try a few times and give it time before I throw in the towel.

Good luck to you on your pct coming this winter, I’m sure you’ll do well, if you do a log I’ll definitely follow it.

 

[nervje]

Damn this scares me the most.

Im gonna do the protocol eman outlined, which is basically only 4 weeks of clomid and nolva, which sounds like alot less than you (talking to several dudes now) do.
I wish after this month i just could be over with it and not care anymore, but reading all of you doing long term serms and working out serm protocols and shit makes me really anxious.

 

[The Terminator]

Damn this scares me the most.

Im gonna do the protocol eman outlined, which is basically only 4 weeks of clomid and nolva, which sounds like alot less than you (talking to several dudes now) do.
I wish after this month i just could be over with it and not care anymore, but reading all of you doing long term serms and working out serm protocols and shit makes me really anxious.

Honestly I didn’t have any bad side effects from serms at lower doses, it’s when I increased to 100mg clomid/40mg tamoxifen I started feeling weird, like less energy, slightly less mood, small headaches, nothing too bad. I did another blood test on today or yesterday I guess, to see if my #s improved or got worse after 1 week of high dose serms. Checking LH/FSH/TT, shoulda checked E but I’ll get my dr to test.

It’s funny tho I decided I should go back on hCG for a little while to get the balls working better since I didn’t use much when I came off trt/aas, I did 1000iu split 750/250 IM/SC..within an an hour I felt a kinda drug like mood elevation lol.

Probably the easiest way is the protocol Eman mentioned, only reason I’m planning maybe longer than the power pct is to try to recover as much function in my balls as possible. Thinking about getting triptorelin and using that if needed.