Attempting to discontinue/pct after 20 months on trt

[Tizzousa]

I guess you can say that, I tried going on serms without the high dose hCG but my levels dropped to 175, tbh I think if I would of given it some more time the serms would of raised my TT, but I think the way I’m doing it now is better, my balls are bigger as the ultrasound showed and TT shows that they are capable of making T. Now I can taper off the hCG and go on serms, but starting at 50/20 cause 100/40 was a bit uncomfortable. Now to see if I got normal sperm. Only thing I’m disappointed is although my loads are better than on trt they’re still not like they were before but I’m horny all the time so that’s a plus

Good to hear man. Keep us posted because this is helpful information. Dude that is one of the disappointing things is loads after blast and on pct.. they are not the same as before.

 

[The Terminator]

Good to hear man. Keep us posted because this is helpful information. Dude that is one of the disappointing things is loads after blast and on pct.. they are not the same as before.

I don’t do daily updates but will periodically or if there’s something noteworthy for sure. Damn that’s disappointing re the loads, was hoping going off trt/aas it would go back to what it was, it’s definitely better but only time it shoots out is towards the end when it’s just the watery shit, before trt/aas even with like 200-300 TT I’d shoot nice loads, still it’s better than it was on trt. Whatever I’ll take the high libido and hard boners over the loads.

 

[The Terminator]

So I have an appointment coming up in about 2.5 weeks to see a men’s health specialist, specializing in reproductive endocrinology, male fertility/hormones Klinefelter etc. Most the drs there are urologists but I randomly got the endo. Anyway should I be completely honest with him in that I came off trt with the aid of pct drugs or no? Any opinions?

Btw day 70ish still feel great, great libido, boners etc etc, thinking I’ll stay with the hCG just a bit longer before switching to serms only, I take a low dose clomid right now, usually 25mg, randomly I’ll not take any or take 10mg tamoxifen. Only purpose was to have some FSH. If I fail to ever fully recover I’m down with just hCG and/or low dose clomid since it’s obvious it works.

 

[Dr JIM]

Been on trt for 1.667 years, unfortunately when I started I was uneducated and my dr either was as well or didn’t care so I wasn’t tested for LH/fsh prior to trt, just T, free T, shbg and psa. Been considering trying the power pct to see if I can recover satisfactory levels, even tho I was extremely low when I started on trt I was still on high dose meds that suppress T and wasn’t working out etc.

Anyway before undertaking this venture I wanted to see what the best way of testing whether it’s primary or secondary or more likely tertiary hypo without quitting cold turkey for 1-2 years. Would it be better to test with hCG or clomid, and about how long would I need to stop trt before trying? 1 week, 2 weeks? My trt is supposed to be 200mg bi-weekly but I do 100mg weekly, and I did a cycle that ended 2 weeks ago but that was test p and Tren a.

@T-Bagger or @Worf im sure you guys would have some info or know someone who does.

There’s no need for PCT if the dosages were physician prescribed!

That being said normalization may take
several months AND the use of SERMS has not been shown to improve/reverse the long term outcome in males w hypogonadism.

So either you will recover or you won’t, and the magnitude of that recovery takes time, as in at least SIX months.

Jim

 

[BirdieNumNum]

Have you ever tried relatively high dose HCG with low dose test or completely without test? I ask this because when I add HCG or was on HCG monotherapy for TRT, there is/was more of mood uplifting and well being effect that comes about. I dont know the science behind it. But with HCG you are getting your body/system to work to produce the testosterone as opposed to shutting your internal testosterone production off. Some of the drawbacks are the frequency of HCG injections and rise in estrogen with high HCG (manageable with an AI).

This.

 

[Glocker]

Have you ever tried relatively high dose HCG with low dose test or completely without test? I ask this because when I add HCG or was on HCG monotherapy for TRT, there is/was more of mood uplifting and well being effect that comes about. I dont know the science behind it. But with HCG you are getting your body/system to work to produce the testosterone as opposed to shutting your internal testosterone production off. Some of the drawbacks are the frequency of HCG injections and rise in estrogen with high HCG (manageable with an AI).

This pretty much is what i understand as well. Quitting test then something like 1000 IU HCG EOD for two weeks to stimulate the LH / testes. Supposedly HCG does spike estrogen i have mixed opinions on that so you will need to monitor your own. After the HCG for two weeks i have heard dave palumbo say go cold turkey and allow your receptors to completely clear out which is supposed to send feedback to your hypothalamus/pituitary/testes to re-start production. I suspect as along as you can continue to function on a daily basis without being in misery there is no harm in having your test bottom-out for a period of time. As far as the uplifting-mood HCG supposedly provides not sure of what exactly causes that could be dopamine related but the reason HCG diets "work" is it makes women "feel good" while they are starving and since calorie deficit is the key to all "weight loss" the HCG diet is successful in that respect.

 

[The Terminator]

There’s no need for PCT if the dosages were physician prescribed!

That being said normalization may take
several months AND the use of SERMS has not been shown to improve/reverse the long term outcome in males w hypogonadism.

So either you will recover or you won’t, and the magnitude of that recovery takes time, as in at least SIX months.

Jim

It was rx’d by my dr, 200mg/14 days but once I got to do my own shots 100mg/7 days. I did of course do some cycles during that time last one ending a week before I terminated trt. I know pct may not repair a broken hpga, although I’ve read in 10-20% of those with HH that were given serms continued to have normal function once serms were discontinued, but wouldn’t they help with a smoother transition in those that can recover?

 

[Dr JIM]

It was rx’d by my dr, 200mg/14 days but once I got to do my own shots 100mg/7 days. I did of course do some cycles during that time last one ending a week before I terminated trt. I know pct may not repair a broken hpga, although I’ve read in 10-20% of those with HH that were given serms continued to have normal function once serms were discontinued, but wouldn’t they help with a smoother transition in those that can recover?

Bc much like AAS and gains, once the stimulus/drug is removed, in this case SERMS, the POST AAS baseline whatever that is reappears.

And I would not expect recovery be much different than drugs used to treat a variety of ailments such as DM, HTN, discontinue the drug and the laboratory evidence, signs and symptoms of disease reappear.

The body must heal itself bc very few medical therapies are capable of reversing or cure an endogenous pathological condition

Jim

 

[Dr JIM]

Which begs the question can the recreational use of AAS damage the HTP/Gonadal axis?

I suspect that’s quite unlikely and suspect a number of recreational
and/or prescription drugs such as opiates, benzo’s, psychotropic agents are much more likely responsible for the lowered TT or suppressed libido of some members, but preferring to mask the effects of one drug w another the source of their pleadings is rarely disclosed.

Jim

 

[nervje]

Which begs the question can the recreational use of AAS damage the HTP/Gonadal axis?

I suspect that’s quite unlikely and suspect a number of recreational
and/or prescription drugs such as opiates, benzo’s, psychotropic agents are much more likely responsible for the lowered TT or suppressed libido of some members, but preferring to mask the effects of one drug w another the source of their pleadings is rarely disclosed.

Jim

This statement basically says that AAS dont have a permanent effect on your HPTA after you stop AAS usage (given your endocrine system developed properly before usage started), or did i misread?

 

[Athleticgingerpta]

Which begs the question can the recreational use of AAS damage the HTP/Gonadal axis?

I suspect that’s quite unlikely and suspect a number of recreational
and/or prescription drugs such as opiates, benzo’s, psychotropic agents are much more likely responsible for the lowered TT or suppressed libido of some members, but preferring to mask the effects of one drug w another the source of their pleadings is rarely disclosed.

Jim

I was permanently lowered it seems from a 6 month TRT regiment prescribed by a doctor. 200mg a week with no HCG. This was 8 years ago. Before I started I had a TT if 421 around 4pm in the afternoon. Now I’m mid 200-low 300 in the morning.

 

[Dr JIM]

I was permanently lowered it seems from a 6 month TRT regiment prescribed by a doctor. 200mg a week with no HCG. This was 8 years ago. Before I started I had a TT if 421 around 4pm in the afternoon. Now I’m mid 200-low 300 in the morning.

Another anecdote, show me the data and I’ll show you a flawed study.
Jim

 

[The Terminator]

Which begs the question can the recreational use of AAS damage the HTP/Gonadal axis?

I suspect that’s quite unlikely and suspect a number of recreational
and/or prescription drugs such as opiates, benzo’s, psychotropic agents are much more likely responsible for the lowered TT or suppressed libido of some members, but preferring to mask the effects of one drug w another the source of their pleadings is rarely disclosed.

Jim

I agree an have openly stated that in the past my low T was due to opioids, benzos, obesity caused by the drugs and inactivity, which is why I feel like I have a chance without trt. Whether I’ve wasted $ on pct’ing it at least gave me the knowledge that at least recovery is possible because my balls are capable of making T, unless my hCG which always tests positive for hCG was laced with T whisk I doubt.

Not sure if I can believe that long term abuse of roids would cause no damage, I’m sure recovery is always possible but will you recover to normal levels? And are you saying that opioids and other recreational drugs permanently disrupt hpga? My sub dr told me in the past that when I go off subs that I likely wouldn’t need trt.

 

[BirdieNumNum]

I agree an have openly stated that in the past my low T was due to opioids, benzos, obesity caused by the drugs and inactivity, which is why I feel like I have a chance without trt. Whether I’ve wasted $ on pct’ing it at least gave me the knowledge that at least recovery is possible because my balls are capable of making T, unless my hCG which always tests positive for hCG was laced with T whisk I doubt.

Not sure if I can believe that long term abuse of roids would cause no damage, I’m sure recovery is always possible but will you recover to normal levels? And are you saying that opioids and other recreational drugs permanently disrupt hpga? My sub dr told me in the past that when I go off subs that I likely wouldn’t need trt.

benzo’s ie diazepam seem to have no effect on my levels at all. I have taken many different substances still no effect.

 

[BirdieNumNum]

Hi @Dr JIM

 

[nervje]

benzo’s ie diazepam seem to have no effect on my levels at all. I have taken many different substances still no effect.

Curious, were those benzos taken to get rid of the negative mood caused by hypogonadism after your aas use?

 

[Athleticgingerpta]

Another anecdote, show me the data and I’ll show you a flawed study.
Jim

There's no data or study since I was referring to my own living experience. Maybe if I was prescribed hcg and my testes never atrophied I would've recovered, who knows? But it's been 7 years now with no recovery and I don't see any other way but TRT.

I don't understand what you guys are discussing. TRT and steroids obviously permanently lower testosterone and disrupt the hpta axis. There are tons of ex abusers who need TRT and tons of studies that show hypogonadism from steroid abuse.

But your theory is they are secretly taking other drugs and those are the cause? Nice mental gymnastics.

 

[kosp]

Don't let your balls to shrink. Always HCG

 

[The Terminator]

benzo’s ie diazepam seem to have no effect on my levels at all. I have taken many different substances still no effect.

Are you talking about occasional use cause it didn’t cause much problems but once it basically became daily use and high doses it definitely did. I think in the last year I used them I may of busted like 5-10 nuts.

 

[The ole man]

I agree an have openly stated that in the past my low T was due to opioids, benzos, obesity caused by the drugs and inactivity, which is why I feel like I have a chance without trt. Whether I’ve wasted $ on pct’ing it at least gave me the knowledge that at least recovery is possible because my balls are capable of making T, unless my hCG which always tests positive for hCG was laced with T whisk I doubt.

Not sure if I can believe that long term abuse of roids would cause no damage, I’m sure recovery is always possible but will you recover to normal levels? And are you saying that opioids and other recreational drugs permanently disrupt hpga? My sub dr told me in the past that when I go off subs that I likely wouldn’t need trt.

Subs as in suboxen or how ever it’s spelled?