just want to put this out there. I still can't seem to start a new thread. I have been through all the features on the site and can't find the new thread option. I have been bulking for about three months now pretty hard. I don't want to add a lot more fat on top of current bf. If I still go for best lean bulk, with minimum surplus calories, what product is best for maximizing muscle gains while minimizing fat gains? I know oft3, clen, GH, and GW516. Based on your experiences, which would best modify my metabolism to allow me to reach this goal? Or if you know another thread, please point.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Best lean bulk drugs-ephedrine,clen,GH,T3,or GW516?
- Thread starter RaveHead
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It's all relative. Eating a bag of chips and a ham sandwich with a coke is metabolically very different than eating salmon, spinach and basmatti rice with a glass of water even if the macros are similar. Seems like you want to argue that fast or slow carbs don't matter but then add in caveats mixing in other food sources to alter uptake. So your arguments seem conflicted.
My argument is only conflicted when it's taken to illogical extremes which are obviously illogical.
Please explain how metabolically those meals are different if the macro ratios are the same. You realize the metabolic differences between meals are based on the macronutrient contents and not the "cleanliness" of the meal correct?
SEOINAGE
Member
But the macros in that comparison wouldn't even be close to the same. I can't stand the labels "healthy" and "clean" food, but I still end up using them. I've lost weight and had good results including faster carbs regularly, and I have good results with your "healthy" foods. Like Doc said, unless there is an underlying health issue, your body should handle things properly. I have just found with "healthy" food, you have a tendency to eat less calories overall, unless you are counting calories, in which case it can lose some of it's benefits.
A friend of mine was eating brownies and ice cream up to 4wks before his show in which he won best in class and best overall as well as earning his pro card. Those brownies provided the gainzzzzz he needed to win lol
weighted chinup
Well-known Member
The comparison would only be true if insulin levels would remain elevated all day or exceed normal range as a result of eating the dirtier meal. The arguement is that eating like this will cause lipogenesis to constantly exceed lipolysis and increase net fat gain because insulin levels are constantly elevated for much longer or exceed normal ranges.
This is not the case. When insulin levels drop in between meals or during a fasted state such as sleep, lipolysis will once again exceed lipogenesis. In a 24 hour window, net additional fat gain from eating high gi foods will basically zero out. This all comes down to the fact that insulin levels will stay within normal range regardless of how they spike and also because a high carb / high gi diet will not cause constantly elevated insulin levels 24/7.
There is evidence showing that some foods have a low GI because they create a high insulin spike in the first place, increasing uptake rate and leading to an overall reduced GI.
The Fast or Slow carb argument is only really relevant for performance imo, it is been clear for some time now that the effects on body composition are irrelevant.
This is not the case. When insulin levels drop in between meals or during a fasted state such as sleep, lipolysis will once again exceed lipogenesis. In a 24 hour window, net additional fat gain from eating high gi foods will basically zero out. This all comes down to the fact that insulin levels will stay within normal range regardless of how they spike and also because a high carb / high gi diet will not cause constantly elevated insulin levels 24/7.
There is evidence showing that some foods have a low GI because they create a high insulin spike in the first place, increasing uptake rate and leading to an overall reduced GI.
The Fast or Slow carb argument is only really relevant for performance imo, it is been clear for some time now that the effects on body composition are irrelevant.
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SEOINAGE
Member
Even Arnold and Franco would down a whole pie a week before competition.
Ok doc you go ahead and have a ham sandwich. I'm going for a slab of tuna. If you don't get insulin secretion and control then there is no point in taking this further. i might as well argue with a pelican.
Don't get upset with me bc you don't understand basic concepts of nutrition. That's neither my fault nor my problem. I'd be more than happy to explain it to you such as WeightedChinup is doing but if you want to cop an attitude I'll pass on arguing with someone stuck in the nutritional dogma of the 80s.
PS: I just had a snickers bar. Oh my fucking God, wait till the fat fairies and insulin monsters get a load of this.
I see your point about physiological levels of insulin vs supraphyiological. My question then is why do the top brains like Jim Stoppani recommend only reducing carbs more and more while dieting? Supposedly to shift body's metabolism from carb as primary fuel to fatty acids as fuel. Carbs are one key to weight gain or loss.
weighted chinup
Well-known Member
I don't know who the individual you mentioned is or about any of their ideas / work, I'm speaking only in generalities here about no one in particular. However, the biggest factor in whether a diet is successful is the athletes ability to consistently meet the caloric and macro requirements, if the goal is to lose weight then reducing carbs can be a legitimate strategy to help stick to the caloric goal because the athlete can invest those calories in protein and receive higher satiety. Protein is generally more satiating, increased satiation can lead to an athlete sticking to a deficit a lot easier than with low satiation foods.
It has nothing to do with metabolic factors.
OTOH, an athlete constantly craving carbs because he cut them out of his diet based on some misguided belief is more likely to cheat or incorporate planned cheat days, slowing down progress had he just included ample amounts of carbs from the jump. It can go either way.
However, to suggest this has anything to do with metabolism is incorrect. I don't know of any experts who believe this to have any meaningful impact in the real world. People I would consider experts are guys like Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, etc...
Funny you mention lowering carbs more and more as the diet goes on, because I've heard of diet coaches INCREASING carbs for a couple days during an aggressive cut and then dropping them back down again. They do this when the scale weight seems stuck and they convince their client that increasing carbs is boosting up their metabolism. In reality all it is doing is causing the athlete to drop some water that the low carbs caused them to hold from increased cortisol. If anything they slowed progress down by increasing kcal's those couple days.
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I wouldn't consider Jim Stoppani a top brain in the field at all. He's a supplement marketer first and foremost.
Going into ketosis forces the body to use ketones for fuel rather than carbohydrates sure but this is neither better nor desired in many cases. An athlete who must maintain performance for example would be better suited reducing dietary fat so as their performance doesn't suffer as much.
Carbs are not key to weight gain or loss. The calories they contain and whether that puts you in a surplus or deficit is the key to weight gain or loss
Did you swallow it in one gulp? Your feelings hurt buddy. Sorry pal, I didn't know you were so sensitive. Seems you are a IIFYM guy. Let me see if I can find a video that explains it so you can understand it.. here you go.
3 but I'm sure I could have done it in one had you asked nicely.
My feelings are hardly hurt by an idiot stuck in the 80s but if you try harder next time I'll be sure to let a tear flow if it'll make you happy. So when you're ready for a lesson in nutrition let me know, I'll be happy to educate you
weighted chinup
Well-known Member
Lol, if a lifter isn't making ample use of Pop-tarts in their diet, they are doing it wrong, real talk.
Sworder
Member
DocD has no knowledge on diet, he didn't even know that macros are used as calories... He is confused be nice to him. He also says that fat isn't used as energy, the only thing it does is create body fat. Lemme see if I can find the thread.
https://thinksteroids.com/community...ut-diet-changes.134367790/page-3#post-1375820
Dis Doc is retarded.
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OK Obywon explain gluconeogenesis, pentose shunt, fatty acid oxidation, and tricaboxylic acid cycle (and which amino acids are glucogenic and non-glucogenic). Then explain to me how sodium effects glucose transport and how blood glucose levels re modulated by insulin secretion. I'm really curious to know. Then explain why you think all calories are biochemically the same based on bomb calorimetry. This should be fun. These are just a few of the basics so I can see if you have even the slightest clue. Go ahead genius. Now I'm going to go away for a while and do some real work while you google your way to informed.3 but I'm sure I could have done it in one had you asked nicely.
My feelings are hardly hurt by an idiot stuck in the 80s but if you try harder next time I'll be sure to let a tear flow if it'll make you happy. So when you're ready for a lesson in nutrition let me know, I'll be happy to educate you
human metabolism isn't just simple arithmetic. calories in, calories out is as basic as it get.
weighted chinup
Well-known Member
What does GNG or any of those other functions have to do with your claim that fat gain will be impacted by insulin spiking, fast/slow carbs, GI, etc or by eating dirty vs clean?
You are the one making the claim that these factors are impactful on fat gain, the evidence is not in your favor. Insulin is not as impactful as you are making it out to be.
Are you trying to browbeat the Docd with your superior nutritional knowledge by mentioning shit like GNG and glucogenic and non-glucogenic amino acids expecting him to not know what these functions are or the role they play in the real world?
You're right, this should be fun.
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