Civil War in the Republican Party

Millard

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Who are you going to call a "liberal" when a well-known and respected life-long conservative viciously attacks George W Bush?

An agonizing choice
Conservatives have plenty of cause to abandon Bush


http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2004-10-07/news_flankingaction.html

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=-2]BY BOB BARR [/size][/font]


[font=arial, verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]Voting for president used to be so easy, at least for a conservative. There was the Republican candidate. You knew he generally stood for lower taxes, less government spending, giving fewer powers to the government, lower deficits and a zealous regard for individual privacy.

Then, there was the Democrat. You knew he generally stood for higher taxes, more government and deficit spending, and a zealous regard for civil liberties.

Throughout my own presidential voting history, the choices have rarely, if ever, been agonizing. Nixon vs. McGovern? Carter vs. Reagan? Reagan-Mondale? Dukakis, a Massachusetts liberal? Clinton? Al Gore? Ah, the good ol' days. Each of those races presented clear choices, easily resolved.

Now we have the election of 2004. For the first time in my voting life, the choice in the race for president isn't so clear And, among true conservatives, I'm not alone.

What's making the contest so difficult? It's certainly not that both candidates are so conservative that we have a choice of riches. It's not even that John Kerry is sort of right wing compared to George W. Bush. The incumbent clearly is the more "conservative" of the two.

But the concerns for many conservative voters -- concerns that may cause them not to vote for Mr. Bush on Nov. 2 -- fall generally into three categories: fiscal, physical (as in the physical security of our nation) and freedom (as in protecting our civil liberties).

When Bush became president Jan. 20, 2001, he inherited an enviable fiscal situation. Congress, then controlled by his own party, had -- through discipline and tough votes -- whittled down decades of deficit spending under presidents of both parties, so that annual deficits of hundreds of billions of dollars had been transformed to a series of real and projected surpluses. The heavy lifting had been done. All Bush had to do was resist the urge to spend, and he had to exert some pressure on Congress to resist its natural impulses to do the same. Had he done that, he might have gone down in history as the most fiscally conservative president in modern times.

Instead, what we got were record levels of new spending, including nearly double-digit increases in nondefense discretionary spending. We now have deficits exceeding those that the first Republican-controlled Congress in 40 years faced when it convened in January 1995.

The oft-repeated mantra that "the terrorists made us spend more" rings hollow, especially to those who actually understand that increases in nondefense discretionary spending are not the inevitable result of fighting terrorists. It also irritates many conservatives, whether or not they support the war in Iraq, that so much of defense spending is being poured into the black hole of Iraq's internal security, while the security of our own borders goes wanting.

That brings us to the second major beef conservatives have with the president. He's seen as failing to take real steps to improve our border security. In many respects, because of his apparent desire to appease his compadre to the south -- Mexican President Vincente Fox -- Bush has made matters worse. More people are entering our country illegally than ever before, more than 3 million this year alone -- and most of them are stampeding across from Mexico.

It seems as if every time an effort is made to implement measures that would crack down on illegal immigration, Fox complains, and the White House tells our enforcement folks to back off. Perhaps that is why intelligence reports indicate al-Qaeda is actively recruiting in Central America.

At the same time, here at home, many law-abiding citizens accurately perceive that their own freedoms and civil liberties are being stripped. They are being profiled by government computers whenever they want to travel, their bank accounts are being summarily closed because they may fit some "profile," they are under surveillance by cameras paid for by that borrowed federal money, and, if the administration has its way, they will be forced to carry a national identification card. That skewed sense of priorities really rankles conservatives.

Those are but three tips of the iceberg that signal the deep dissatisfaction many conservatives harbor against the president. Thus far, however, with Bush's political gurus telling him he's ahead and to just lay low and not make any major gaffes, he seems unwilling to recognize the problems on his right flank. Or he seems to have concluded that he doesn't need to address those concerns because the ineptitude of the Kerry campaign hasn't forced him to.

But the race appears to be tightening again. It's likely to remain tight until Election Day. Those dissatisfied conservative voters will become increasingly important, but it's going to be impossible for the president to pull them back in with hollow, last-minute promises.

Bush's problem is that true conservatives remember their history. They recall that in recent years when the nation enjoyed the fruits of actual conservative fiscal and security policies, a Democrat occupied the White House and Congress was controlled by a Republican majority that actually fought for a substantive conservative agenda.

History's a troublesome thing for presidents. Even though most voters don't take much of a historical perspective into the voting booth with them, true conservatives do.

Hmmm. Who's the Libertarian candidate again?

Lifelong Republican Bob Barr represented parts of Cobb County and northwest Georgia in Congress from 1995 to 2003.
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LOL.....you call that a "civil war" within the republican party??

Then what in the hell do you call Zell Millers speech?? World War III within the democratic party???

And Miller is from Georgia as well.
 
It's only the tip of the iceberg. There's a long list of true conservatives that are even more critical of George W Bush.

Are you seriously comparing Zell Miller's speech with Bob Barr's essay? Do you really think they are analagous?
 
administrator said:
It's only the tip of the iceberg. There's a long list of true conservatives that are even more critical of George W Bush.

Are you seriously comparing Zell Miller's speech with Bob Barr's essay? Do you really think they are analagous?

Sure, why wouldnt' they be??

And the subtitle of your thread says "who are you gonna call a 'liberal'"???

Michael Moore said that John Kerry is in fact the #1 liberal in the Senate:

http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/10/19/d1.cr.slackertour.1019.html
 
What the fuck does John Kerry and Michael Moore have to do with this?
 
You said "who are you gonna call a 'liberal'..."???

I am simply pointing out that Michael Moore, arguably one of the most liberal minds in America, agrees with many others that John Kerry is in fact liberal. So, I guess I'm calling John Kerry a liberal....to answer your previous question.

No need to get all testy bro....just making an observation. :D
 
Kayz said:
Sure, why wouldnt' they be??
Well, after his performance at the Republican Convnetion, practically every Democrat AND Republican disowned him? He embarrassed himself, the Democrats and the Republicans. The Bush administration and RNC couldn't distance themselves from him fast enough.

You're the first I've known to actually voluntarily bring up his speech from either side of the political spectrum.
 
administrator said:
You're the first I've known to actually voluntarily bring up his speech from either side of the political spectrum.


Really....I could have sworn we discussed that speech for about a week on your own board.

Hmmmm, maybe I was mistaken or something. :confused:
 
There are many more Dems crossing over due to securit issues. look at the polls. Many states that are notoriously Liberal are either leaning towards W or are closer than they have been in decades.

I'll counter your article with one written by Martin Peretz who is the editor in chief of the New Republic (one of the largest Lib presses in the nation) and former Gore campaign advisor.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-op-israel17oct17,1,6342171.story?coll=la-news-elect2004

Kerry the Clueless
Like Carter and Clinton, he's a Democrat who offers Israel nothing but muddled ideas


Like many American Jews, I was brought up to believe that if I pulled the Republican lever on the election machine my right hand would wither and, as the Psalmist says, my tongue would cleave to the roof of my mouth.

According to the Bible, of course, these are the feared consequences of forgetting Jerusalem. Now although there are many reasons one might want to vote for John F. Kerry, remembering Jerusalem remembering to stand up for the state of Israel is not among them.

It is true that Kerry's campaign pronouncements have been unexceptionable from the pro-Zionist point of view. Yes, he flip-flopped on the miles of trenches and fences Israel is building to defend itself from the plague of terrorism, first attacking the structure as "another barrier to peace," then accepting it as "a legitimate act of self-defense."

He has also floundered concerning what can be expected of Yasser Arafat. Just as Arafat was launching the second intifada in 2000, Kerry asserted optimistically that we must "look to Chairman Arafat to exert much greater leadership." Three days later, he portentously declared the obvious on CBS' "Face the Nation," calling the Israel-Palestinian conflict "an extraordinarily complicated, incredibly deep-rooted problem." What made this problem so extraordinary and incredible? "Arafat has forces around him, underneath him, close by him that don't want peace, that are working against what he is doing," Kerry said by way of exoneration. (And, to sustain the moral equivalence of the parties in his head, he added, "The same is true of Prime Minister [Ehud] Barak" which was nonsense, as there wasn't a single such person in Barak's circle.)

By now, to be sure, Kerry thinks that Arafat's "support" for terrorism has already rendered him unfit as a partner for peace. And his votes in the Senate (like all but a handful of senators) have been routinely friendly to Israel.

So why am I still exercised about John Kerry?

It's the ramifications of his foreign policy in general, especially his fixation on the United Nations as the arbiter of international legitimacy, proctor of that "global test."

Save for the U.S. veto in the Security Council, Israel loses every struggle at the U.N. against lopsided majorities. In the General Assembly and the Human Rights Commission, Muslim states trade their votes to protect aggressors and tyrannies from censure in exchange for libels against the Jewish state. The body's bloated and dishonest bureaucracies are no better, as evidenced most recently by the head of the U.N. Palestine refugee organization, who defended having Hamas militants on his staff.

I've searched to find one time when Kerry even candidate Kerry criticized a U.N. action or statement against Israel. I've come up empty. Nor has he defended Israel against the European Union's continuous hectoring. Another thing that bothers me about Kerry is the deus ex machina he has up his sleeve: the appointment of a presidential envoy. It's hard to count how many special emissaries have been dispatched from Washington to the Middle East to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict. What's easy to see is that none of them has gotten to "yes."

In recent years, both former CIA Director George Tenet and former Marine Gen. Anthony C. Zinni, once the chief of the U.S. Central Command, have served in this meaningless position. And who would Kerry designate? He first suggested the sanctimonious Jimmy Carter and James *****, Bush 41's secretary of state.

Then he found out why he didn't know this is another matter that both Carter and ***** are deeply distrusted by the Israelis, and by American Jews. There was no mystery as to why. Carter (well, how does one say this?) is not exactly a friend to the Jewish nation and, besides, his favorite politician in the Middle East was the mass murderer Hafez Assad, the late president of Syria. A huge beneficiary of Saudi business, ***** was adept at pooh-poohing concerns about Israeli security. So we are left with Kerry's other putative designee, Bill Clinton, whose national security staff was so mesmerized by the mirage of a quickie Israel-Palestinian peace at the end of his term that, according to the Sept. 11 commission report, it couldn't be bothered take out Osama bin Laden after the attack on the U.S. destroyer Cole. Clinton succeeded in squeezing Israel into the extravagant Camp David and Taba formulas but failed to get Arafat to go along. At least for Israel, these proposals are now toast.

For his part, Kerry grabs at any showy idea to demonstrate his sense of urgency. As a response to militant Islam and to encourage moderate Muslims, the presidential aspirant proposed that "the great religious figures of the planet" he mentioned the pope, the archbishop of Canterbury and the Dalai Lama hold a summit.

To do exactly what?

"To begin to help the world to see the ways in which Islam is not, in fact, a threat," Kerry said, "and to isolate those who are, and to give people the strength to be able to come together in a global effort to take away their financing, their freedom to move, their sanctuary and so forth."

This muddled foolishness reflects Kerry's sense of politics as desperate theater. Another simply showy idea he proposed (to Tim Russert on NBC's "Meet the Press") was to insert U.S. troops between Israel and the territories, as part "of some kind of very neutral international effort that began to allow Israel itself to disengage and withdraw."

Now, if anything would put U.S. soldiers in harm's way it is such a move, exposing our men and women to fiercely competing gangs of suicide bombers and other killers.

Kerry asserted on "Meet the Press" that it is "Israel's presence [in the territories that] puts Israel in difficult circumstances and obviously creates an enormous handle for Osama bin Laden for all the radicals and extremists to hang on to." But this stands history on its head. It is not the occupation that caused the conflict. It is the very existence of Israel even within the unbearably narrow 1949 cease-fire lines.

To project his Middle East bona fides, Kerry has bashed President Bush dozens of times for supposedly showing no interest in Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking, for breaking a continuum going back at least 30 years.

"Some cliches," wrote the dovish Israeli journalist Aluf Benn in the even more dovish Israeli newspaper Haaretz, "become permanent features in public until someone takes the trouble to check out their validity."

Which is what Benn did. And what did he find? The Bush administration "has been far more involved than any previous administrations in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and has courageously presented the two sides with practical objectives and demands."

Kerry seems to have nostalgia for the peacemaking ways of Clinton. But what Clinton actually bequeathed to George W., says Benn, was "an Israeli-Palestinian war and a total collapse of the hopes that flourished in the 1990s. The height of the peace process during the Clinton era, the Camp David summit in July 2000, was a classic example of inept diplomacy, an arrogant and rash move whose initiators failed to take into account the realpolitik, misunderstood Arafat and brought upon both Israelis and Palestinians the disaster of the intifada."

By contrast, Bush has committed Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to a Palestinian state and to a withdrawal from some, though certainly not all, of the settlements. In return, the president has recognized that the most populous and strategically pivotal settlements would remain in Israeli hands and has also ruled out what would be suicide for Israel, the return of Palestinian refugees after 56 years. The Palestinians have not yet signed on to these particulars. But they are the future details of any peace.

Bush's empathy for the government in Israel is particularly remarkable, because empathy was altogether foreign to both Bush pere and his secretary of State. One can only imagine the horror of George H.W. and ***** (to whom the current president may actually owe his office) in seeing the inheritor become a true ally of Israel. Yet there it is. And with his understanding of and sympathy for the Israeli predicament, Bush has coaxed from Sharon an agreement to withdraw unilaterally from all the Gaza settlements and from four in the West Bank something even left-wing governments, as Benn puts it, "were afraid to do."

Kerry, meanwhile, appears ready to formulaically follow the failed precepts of the past, complete with photo ops and multiple interlocutors. This is a road map to nowhere.
 
Kayz said:
You said "who are you gonna call a 'liberal'..."???

I am simply pointing out that Michael Moore, arguably one of the most liberal minds in America, agrees with many others that John Kerry is in fact liberal. So, I guess I'm calling John Kerry a liberal....to answer your previous question.

No need to get all testy bro....just making an observation. :D
Context is everything - the full question was "Who are you going to call a "liberal" when a well-known and respected life-long conservative viciously attacks George W Bush?"

Actually, the question I posed was a "cheap and tawdry" political trick to try to bait someone into actually avoiding a meaningful discussion of conservative politics. Sorry, not upset with you. But frustrated that I can't find any conservatives who will discuss any sort of dissent within the Republican party. They usually try to avoid the question by invoking the "but John Kerry is a liberal" argument.

The question is not about whether John Kerry is a liberal. It is about true conservative principles. Doesn't the substance of Bob Barr's editorial piss any Republicans off?

Either you can disagree with Barr's statements or accept them. IMO, it would be hard to dispute them. That doesn't mean John Kerry isn't liberal anymore. It doesn't mean you're not going to vote for Bush anyway...
 
Again, another person refusing to discuss the substance of Bob Barr's editorial. It's nice and all that many liberals and conservatives are uncomfortable with Kerry's position, or positions, on Iraq, etc, etc. But how come we have to deflect discussion to Kerry rather than discuss the issues raised by Bob Barr.

Even if everyone in the whole world agreed with the article you posted, Kerry is really irrelevant in this discussion.

Again, I ask "What the fuck does John Kerry have to do with this?"
 
Okay, I'll discuss the article with you:

1) I fully agree with Barr on the issue of border security. I support shutting down the borders COMPLETELY until we figure out a better way to handle the situation. I say give all US citizens overseas 90 days to get back here or stay where you are at.

2) I disagree with Barr that peoples civil liberties are being violated. I"m not saying that it has not happened at all, but I don't believe it is as widespread as much as the ACLU would like you to believe. I personally do not know a single person whose rights have been violated due to hightened security and/or the Patriot Act (which john kerry supported)....NOT ONE!!!

Maybe I'm just "out of touch" with the middle class since I'm a "rich, white, evil educated male". :D
 
administrator said:
Again, another person refusing to discuss the substance of Bob Barr's editorial.

Again, I ask "What the fuck does John Kerry have to do with this?"


Most conservatives will agree W hasn't been as fiscally responsible as we would like or as tough on borders as we would like, but compared to Kerry's record, W is so much more the conservative than Kerry. No true conservatives will be casting a vote for Kerry. Some Libertarians probably will but no true conservatives. There is more to being conservative than fiscal restraint. Conservative values play a huge role as well and in that area Kerry is sunk.
 
Kayz said:
Maybe I'm just "out of touch" with the middle class since I'm a "rich, white, evil educated male". :D

You know what they say Kayz...

"If you want to piss off a Liberal, just work hard and smile!"
 
Hey Jbiggs......

Keep working hard brother...millions on welfare are depending on you.
 
Kayz said:
Okay, I'll discuss the article with you:

1) I fully agree with Barr on the issue of border security. I support shutting down the borders COMPLETELY until we figure out a better way to handle the situation. I say give all US citizens overseas 90 days to get back here or stay where you are at.
Thanks bro!

Kayz said:
2) I disagree with Barr that peoples civil liberties are being violated. I"m not saying that it has not happened at all, but I don't believe it is as widespread as much as the ACLU would like you to believe. I personally do not know a single person whose rights have been violated due to hightened security and/or the Patriot Act (which john kerry supported)....NOT ONE!!!
I think Barr is more concerned about individual rights than civil liberties; I have a sense of the difference he is expressing but granted the actual distinction between the two needs a lot of clarification.

Essentially, Barr says that liberals are more for civil liberties and Republicans are more for for individual liberties. In reality, not as clear-cut as he suggests.

Personally, I'm concerned about both under Patriot Act. I don't personally know anyone who was directly affected by the Patriot Act either. Then again, I don't know a single person that was directly affected by terrorism. That doesn't mean it's not a problem or something to be concerned about.
 
Kayz said:
Hey Jbiggs......

Keep working hard brother...millions on welfare are depending on you.

I know Kayz but some times my back starts to get sore...ya can't carry em forever!
 
jbiggs said:
I know Kayz but some times my back starts to get sore...ya can't carry em forever!

Oh shit bro....call John Edwards, he can get you at least $7 million and he'll put your current employer out of business too..... :D
 
Personally, I think the best thing for the Democrat Party is for them to lose the 2004 election.

But, I think the best thing for the Republican Party is for them to lose the 2004 election.

I predict whichever Party wins will see their Party's stature destroyed over the next four years.

ON the surface, perhaps this doesn't make sense, but please think about it before posting if you could.
 
Kayz said:
Oh shit bro....call John Edwards, he can get you at least $7 million and he'll put your current employer out of business too..... :D

LMAO...I just might do that...He's gonna have a lot of time on his hands in a couple of weeks! :D
 
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