Comprehensive Guide to PCT

[CaseinCreampie]

I'm bailing on what began as a 4-month cycle where I 'ended' by staying on a TRT dose of test E for the last 4 months. It was going to be for life and I felt good on it, but life changed, as it has a way of doing, and I'm saying fuck it all and PCTing soon to try to get back to baseline because my priorities are just not the same as they used to be. To make it worse, I probably started my PCT the cycle prior too early and didn't fully recover in between. So it could have been 1.5 year. Lot of fucking up...

SteroidPlotter says I'd be at 5 mg test released per day just 6 days after my last pin of 30 mg EOD test E. Is that the point where I should begin blasting, say, 2000 iu hCG E3D, or since I'm coming off such a low dose, do I need to start sooner? I didn't use it while on TRT. I know the hCG and nolva overlap needs to be minimal. Seems like coming off low dose TRT muddies the waters with scheduling. I've read this entire thread, but like any old, long thread on this topic that is still ongoing, there are some contradictory takeaways.

And does anyone actually have a link to the latest version of 'Power PCT' (a name I know the doc doesn't care for)? I found people saying 'search for it' when this was asked in 2018, but I haven't been able to find a thread where @Michael Scally MD's current regimen for ASIH is laid out. There's a more recent reddit thread that links to a screenshot where I presume it once was, but the link to the screenshot is dead.

 

[CaseinCreampie]

I went ahead and started hCG, 6 days after my last pin (see above). That's too early for SERMs, but should be fine for hCG considering monotheapy will continue for several weeks and a lot of people recommend you start stimulating the balls a bit before the cycle ends (though this is more aborted TRT than cycle at this point), which seems sound to me based on my understanding of the science.

My balls were sore within 12 hours of my first 1500 iu injection and continue to hurt. I never ached using pharm-grade at 300 iu 3x per week my first cycle. Seems like a positive sign that they are indeed responding and that my UGL hCG is potent. I'll verify this by getting TT checked in a few weeks. I don't know my baseline TT because I never checked it prior to my first cycle. I do know after my partial or possibly full recovery last August it was in the upper 300s with FT around 45. But I think I botched the timing of that PCT and may not have been fully recovered when I got bloods.

Is there any argument against continuing hCG monotherapy for 5 weeks? I'm not in any hurry to start SERMs, and since I don't know my AAS-naive TT/FT, I don't have a clear goal to shoot for. Likewise, I could extend SERM therapy from the planned 6 weeks to 8 weeks, or even longer with what I have on hand. Is there any argument against doing this just to be safe?

I might have to repeat the whole thing next year thanks to leftover NA-19 suppressing LH/FSH from the deca I ended 130 days ago, but I'm prepared for that prospect and don't mind buying more hCG later. This will at least help me recover partially and feel normal for a while, even if my balls subsequently shrink again. I seriously doubt residual NA-19 130 days after a moderate deca cycle results in 100% suppression.

@The Terminator @Eman

And if someone with academia/journal access could tell me just how suppressive small amounts of NA-19 are in this study, I would really appreciate it! I can't find ANY thread on any of the credible AAS forums (all two of them Fuck the SARM shill forums) giving the numbers on the extent of suppression found in the full study, and I think it'd be very useful information to have on hand to give people an idea as to how long full recovery post-nandrolone actually requires. I've requested the full article through researchgate, but no response yet:

Long term perturbation of endocrine parameters and cholesterol metabolism after discontinued abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids

 

[The Terminator]

I went ahead and started hCG, 6 days after my last pin (see above). That's too early for SERMs, but should be fine for hCG considering monotheapy will continue for several weeks and a lot of people recommend you start stimulating the balls a bit before the cycle ends (though this is more aborted TRT than cycle at this point), which seems sound to me based on my understanding of the science.

My balls were sore within 12 hours of my first 1500 iu injection and continue to hurt. I never ached using pharm-grade at 300 iu 3x per week my first cycle. Seems like a positive sign that they are indeed responding and that my UGL hCG is potent. I'll verify this by getting TT checked in a few weeks. I don't know my baseline TT because I never checked it prior to my first cycle. I do know after my partial or possibly full recovery last August it was in the upper 300s with FT around 45. But I think I botched the timing of that PCT and may not have been fully recovered when I got bloods.

Is there any argument against continuing hCG monotherapy for 5 weeks? I'm not in any hurry to start SERMs, and since I don't know my AAS-naive TT/FT, I don't have a clear goal to shoot for. Likewise, I could extend SERM therapy from the planned 6 weeks to 8 weeks, or even longer with what I have on hand. Is there any argument against doing this just to be safe?

I might have to repeat the whole thing next year thanks to leftover NA-19 suppressing LH/FSH from the deca I ended 130 days ago, but I'm prepared for that prospect and don't mind buying more hCG later. This will at least help me recover partially and feel normal for a while, even if my balls subsequently shrink again. I seriously doubt residual NA-19 130 days after a moderate deca cycle results in 100% suppression.

@The Terminator @Eman

And if someone with academia/journal access could tell me just how suppressive small amounts of NA-19 are in this study, I would really appreciate it! I can't find ANY thread on any of the credible AAS forums (all two of them Fuck the SARM shill forums) giving the numbers on the extent of suppression found in the full study, and I think it'd be very useful information to have on hand to give people an idea as to how long full recovery post-nandrolone actually requires. I've requested the full article through researchgate, but no response yet:

Long term perturbation of endocrine parameters and cholesterol metabolism after discontinued abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids

Not really, as long as you don’t get any weird side effects. I used hCG for a long while after trt and the only downside for me personally was the cost started to add up. And I can’t imagine nandrolone directly suppressing four months.

 

[jackthegripper2]

I'm a bit confused. Am I suppose to run Test P during the 14 days of HCG or Start HCG a Couple days after last Prop shot?

 

[Drew dude]

I went ahead and started hCG, 6 days after my last pin (see above). That's too early for SERMs, but should be fine for hCG considering monotheapy will continue for several weeks and a lot of people recommend you start stimulating the balls a bit before the cycle ends (though this is more aborted TRT than cycle at this point), which seems sound to me based on my understanding of the science.

My balls were sore within 12 hours of my first 1500 iu injection and continue to hurt. I never ached using pharm-grade at 300 iu 3x per week my first cycle. Seems like a positive sign that they are indeed responding and that my UGL hCG is potent. I'll verify this by getting TT checked in a few weeks. I don't know my baseline TT because I never checked it prior to my first cycle. I do know after my partial or possibly full recovery last August it was in the upper 300s with FT around 45. But I think I botched the timing of that PCT and may not have been fully recovered when I got bloods.

Is there any argument against continuing hCG monotherapy for 5 weeks? I'm not in any hurry to start SERMs, and since I don't know my AAS-naive TT/FT, I don't have a clear goal to shoot for. Likewise, I could extend SERM therapy from the planned 6 weeks to 8 weeks, or even longer with what I have on hand. Is there any argument against doing this just to be safe?

I might have to repeat the whole thing next year thanks to leftover NA-19 suppressing LH/FSH from the deca I ended 130 days ago, but I'm prepared for that prospect and don't mind buying more hCG later. This will at least help me recover partially and feel normal for a while, even if my balls subsequently shrink again. I seriously doubt residual NA-19 130 days after a moderate deca cycle results in 100% suppression.

@The Terminator @Eman

And if someone with academia/journal access could tell me just how suppressive small amounts of NA-19 are in this study, I would really appreciate it! I can't find ANY thread on any of the credible AAS forums (all two of them Fuck the SARM shill forums) giving the numbers on the extent of suppression found in the full study, and I think it'd be very useful information to have on hand to give people an idea as to how long full recovery post-nandrolone actually requires. I've requested the full article through researchgate, but no response yet:

Long term perturbation of endocrine parameters and cholesterol metabolism after discontinued abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids

Hey man, this a protocol of one the only if not the only guy on meso that successfully did long term HCG monotherapy with amazing results.

Bookmark it.

Post in thread '4 year cruise and pct log' 4 year cruise and pct log

 

[Tidy2108]

Thank you for taking the time to write this. Very good information.

 

[Trapjunky]

Comprehensive Guide to PCT - Revised 04-05-2014 at 23:15 GMT

Proper PCT Protocol

PCT should only begin when the body is in an environment to stimulate LH and FSH secretion. In the case of testosterone this environment is achieved once TT begins to dip below pre cycle TT levels. Therefore not only to judge when pct has been successful but also to determine when pct should begin Pre-cycle blood levels should be taken.

How do we determine when TT levels fall below baseline aside from experiencing side effects or getting blood drawn every week?

As we know TT is directly related with the amount of exogenous testosterone we administer. In TRT studies it is generally excepted that a 100mg shot of testosterone enanthate/cyp will put blood levels at around 800-900ng/dl.
We can thus use this conversion with decent accuracy to judge at what mg TT levels will fall below baseline. (The conversion ratio somewhat lessens as doses increase therefore we should air on the side of caution when determining the optimal test mg target)

For example if pre-cycle levels are 500ng/dl then PCT should only begin when exogenous test falls to roughly 50mg. This will put TT in the 400-500ng/dl range and thus in a state where HPTA stimulation of FSH and LH release begins to become possible.

Now that we understand how to determine optimal Mg range of ex Test for HPTA restoration we must now find the length of time required to reach said levels after the last injection. To do this we must first understand Half lives of the varying esters and the variation they can have with each individual's physiology. Some users metabolize AAS more quickly or more slowly than others therefore we can only identify an average. Ill give one practical example of the commonly used ester Enanthate.

Enanthate has a half life of 5 days +/- 2.5 days (I will use a 7 day calculation to air on the side of caution)

A 12wk cycle of test e at 500mg per week will put ex Test at around 1000mg
(500mg+250+125+62.5+31.25 etc = 1000mg)

This means it will take 5 half lives to reach ex test at or below 50mg therefore time between last injection and start of PCT is 35 days.

It would be worthwhile to determine your own metabolization rate by taking a blood test after the 4th AVERAGE half life has passed. (In this case it would be at 20 days) Based on TT levels at this point you can determine YOUR half life.

Now that we understand how to accurately calculate a PCT start date based on our own physiology, what should an effective pct consist of?

HCG may be used during cycle and is consider to be a better option by many. There is a bill Roberts article that you may refer to on the subject. He suggests 500iu EOD throughout the cycle. If you did not use HCG during your cycle, here is a variation of Dr. Scally's PCT protocol for AAS users (his experience and expertise speaks for itself)

HCG 2000iu E3D for 14 days before pct start date

PCT start

1-35 Clomiphene 50mg morning and night
1-45 Tamoxifen 20mg morning and night

1-45 low dose of Exemestane 12.5mg E3D (Optional)

The combination of Clomid and Nolva has been shown to provide better results than when compared alone. Clomid has a slightly different MOA than Nolva And Torem if you must use Torem in your PCT it should be a substitute for Nolva not Clomid. An equivalent dose of Torem for 40mg Nolva would be 120mg.

This PCT will give you the best chance at achieving and maintaining pre cycle TT levels rapidly after cessation of treatment for all AAS cycles under 25 weeks of suppression. PCT requirements vary depending on the user and mainly length of shutdown.

Post pct bloods should be taken approximately 2-3 weeks after cessation of treatment to ensure restoration has been achieved without further aid from SERM's. If restoration has not been achieved restart this PCT or better yet, CONSULT A PHYSICIAN!

Switching To Short Chain Esters

A largely overlooked factor that can greatly aid in maintaining gains, reducing HPTA shutdown length or extending a cycle without lengthening HPTA shutdown is switching from Long ester AAS to short ester AAS toward the end of the cycle. When done correctly this reduces the amount of time that users must wait to start PCT and/or increases the amount of time TT levels stay supra-physiological.

Here is a practical example of how to perform a switch to Test P from a regular 12 week cycle of Test E allowing us to extend it to 16 weeks. (In both cases length of shutdown is still 17 weeks)

First we must calculate our pct start date. For this example we will be using 750mg test e a week. With Ex test at about 1500 5 half lives have to pass to reach below 50mg. A PCT start date of 35 days is again warranted. Therefore we will start test p injections 35 days or 5 weeks before the end of the cycle.

Week 1-11 Test e 750mg
Week 13 Test p 400mg
Week 14 Test p 600mg
Week 15-16 Test p 700mg

Test p half life 2 days +/- 18hours (I will use a 2.5 day calculation)

PCT start 7 days

Tapering the test p injections upward in this fashion will ensure that TT levels do not spike dramatically when the shorter more quickly metabolized half life is introduced.

As we can see This will apply the same length of shutdown to the HPTA (17 weeks in both cases) but you will be able to extend the amount of time TT levels remain supra physiological.

Or if you would like you can use this method to shorten HPTA suppression length by removing the extra weeks of injections and starting test p from weeks 8-12. (13 weeks of shutdown instead of 17)

Is there any specific reason why we are waiting 14 Days after using HCG to start our SERMS? For example why can't we start our SERMS while taking HCG or at least a day after our last shot of HCG?

 

[limitphobic]

Is there any specific reason why we are waiting 14 Days after using HCG to start our SERMS? For example why can't we start our SERMS while taking HCG or at least a day after our last shot of HCG?

I believe that’s what he meant. The 15th day you start PCT. The 14 days before that, you blast hcg.

 

[Trapjunky]

I believe that’s what he meant. The 15th day you start PCT. The 14 days before that, you blast hcg.

I know Im jus curious as to why we are delaying recovery, waiting 14-15 Days to start SERMS after use of HCG.. IF we are waiting for HCG to clear out our system I mean the active half-life is 24+Hours and Elimination half life is 5 Days... So theoretically rather then delay recovery we can begin SERMS 5-7 Days after our last shot of HCG

 

[Trapjunky]

I believe that’s what he meant. The 15th day you start PCT. The 14 days before that, you blast hcg.

or am I misunderstanding and infact you do start SERMS on the 15th day.. meaning Days 1-14 HCG and then SERM start is Day 15

 

[limitphobic]

or am I misunderstanding and infact you do start SERMS on the 15th day.. meaning Days 1-14 HCG and then SERM start is Day 15

I think that’s what they meant. I mean obviously don’t go injecting hCG DAILY but if you do 2 shots a week (Sunday and Wednesday) then by the 15 day you should be nearing the end of the hCGs half life and SERMS can begin.

 

[kosp]

The guide of this thread says post pct bloodwork should be done 2/3 weeks after last dose of serms, if 21 days after last dose of serms you reach your precycle TT levels, can you be confident you recovered? Or a drop in TT after Serms effects is expected?

 

[jackthegripper2]

The guide of this thread says post pct bloodwork should be done 2/3 weeks after last dose of serms, if 21 days after last dose of serms you reach your precycle TT levels, can you be confident you recovered? Or a drop in TT after Serms effects is expected?

Look up the Half Life of the Sarms you are using. Once the drug has FULLY cleared out of your system that would probably be where youre gonna land naturally.

 

[jackthegripper2]

Of course youd time the half life x2 to equate when it has fully cleared your system

 

[benfrankparkway]

I read thru this whole post multiple times, very informative. However there seems to be several different ways and timing when it comes to PCT. In regards to HCG, if I am taking it on cycle 250iu EOD, do I run that dose into and thru pct. I seen 3 different scenerios

1. stop the hcg with last pin of test.
2. run hcg 2 weeks after last pin of test.
3. run hcg and overlap with 1st week of nolva/clomid

My cycle is going to be
week 1-12 500mg test c
week 1-12 hcg 250iu eod
last pin on week 12
week 13-14 hcg 250iu
week 15-19 nolva/clomid 40/50 20/25

 

[lukiss96]

I read thru this whole post multiple times, very informative. However there seems to be several different ways and timing when it comes to PCT. In regards to HCG, if I am taking it on cycle 250iu EOD, do I run that dose into and thru pct. I seen 3 different scenerios

1. stop the hcg with last pin of test.
2. run hcg 2 weeks after last pin of test.
3. run hcg and overlap with 1st week of nolva/clomid

My cycle is going to be
week 1-12 500mg test c
week 1-12 hcg 250iu eod
last pin on week 12
week 13-14 hcg 250iu
week 15-19 nolva/clomid 40/50 20/25

Here's the deal, the half life of test e/c is say 6 or so days (depending on individual metabolism of drugs). So by the time two weeks pass after your last injection you're still technically left with 100-125mg of test e. That is theoretical at best. However, you want to make sure you're low enough on exogenous T that you can start your pct, which means waiting 3 half lives (so in this case about 3 weeks) before starting nolva and clomid.

The half life of hcg is 36-48 hours, so basically stopping it right after 3 weeks after your last injection of test e or c would be ideal, then start taking nolva or clomid or both.

P.S. I'm no doc, so take anything I say with a grain of salt or two and proceed at your own risk. I just share what I know and what I recommend based on my own experience/knowledge over the years. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Bill23138]

35 days seems excessive. I feel like you would want to start when it was like 100 mg.

 

[Hoffifee]

I understand the concept of pct and that we should do pct according to the substance and we logically have to think of the ester to know when to start.
But how do you determin which substance needs which medication or might not even need any because it is not going to do any harm if not trested?
Is it pure studies and known facts that you need it for that substance?

 

[benfrankparkway]

At what time after PCT should you check bloodwork to see if hormone levels came back to pre cycle?

I finished my PCT 6 days ago and I feel like shit. I used nolva 20/20/10/10 enclomiphene 12.5/12.5/6.25/6.25
Knees still have dry ache, no drive, workouts are terrible. Is this to be expected? Wondering if this is right time to get bloodwork.

 

[cdoubleu]

I understand the concept of pct and that we should do pct according to the substance and we logically have to think of the ester to know when to start.
But how do you determin which substance needs which medication or might not even need any because it is not going to do any harm if not trested?
Is it pure studies and known facts that you need it for that substance?

I wouldn’t say that the type of substance determines the type of PCT med because most protocols involve similar meds in one way or another.

Instead, substance selection may determine things like the number of meds used, their dosage, and length of time on them.

There is still enough speculation around the whole subject that I wouldn’t say anything is know fact though.