cutting cycles are idiotic unless you are competing

[DECLAN]

I think the basic outline of what he said is correct from a harm reduction perspective. Using more drugs more frequently is generally understood to be more harmful than using fewer drugs less frequently. I don’t know that that’s particularly controversial nor did I think it was in dispute.

The problem is making a claim without any substantial evidence, anecdotal or scientific. Harm reduction is good and all but do with no one actually ever doing it, who knows if it works.

I am not against it per se, I just can't believe anyone posting and making claims without even doing it themselves. If most bodybuilders and gym bros have made millions of logs all over the internet for decades and made progress using the conventional bulk and cut, then you come out of nowhere saying the method is idiotic, better have something to support it or cram that bullshit up your ass.

Anyway, OP never addressed the issue and went on a grammar tirade so this thread is good as dead.

 

[readalot]

grammar tirade

A written word crime against humanity combined with some crawfishing.

Hemingway would not be pleased. London would need way more to drink.

 

[Millard]

I think the basic outline of what he said is correct from a harm reduction perspective. Using more drugs more frequently is generally understood to be more harmful than using fewer drugs less frequently. I don’t know that that’s particularly controversial nor did I think it was in dispute.

Well, yes. I personally never saw any reason to use AAS to get lean. If I was going to compromise my health, I sure as hell wasn't going to waste it on a cutting cycle. I would use AAS to gain maximum muscle mass possible.

But those were my personal decisions based on my own risk/reward ratio combined with the fact that I always struggled (as an unenhanced athlete) to gain size but not to get lean.

Others have different risk/reward ratios based on a myriad of other factors. As an example, competitive bodybuilding shifts the balance because maintaining every last ounce of muscle during a cutting can have a major impact on placings.

So harm reduction isn't necessarily or solely interested in minimizing the absolute harm. It is also interested in minimizing harm associated within the context of any given individual's self-selected risk ratio.

 

[malfeasance]

Well, yes. I personally never saw any reason to use AAS to get lean. If I was going to compromise my health, I sure as hell wasn't going to waste it on a cutting cycle. I would use AAS to gain maximum muscle mass possible.

But those were my personal decisions based on my own risk/reward ratio combined with the fact that I always struggled (as an unenhanced athlete) to gain size but not to get lean.

Others have different risk/reward ratios based on a myriad of other factors. As an example, competitive bodybuilding shifts the balance because maintaining every last ounce of muscle during a cutting can have a major impact on placings.

So harm reduction isn't necessarily or solely interested in minimizing the absolute harm. It is also interested in minimizing harm associated within the context of any given individual's self-selected risk ratio.

I assume you are not talking about pre contest prep when you say getting lean?

 

[Millard]

I assume you are not talking about pre contest prep when you say getting lean?

nah, I'm just talking about lean for me maybe sub-10bf with visible abs.

Contest bodybuilding is another level of leanness with different requirements and different reward/risk ratios.

 

[Laxbro88]

I should have addressed the topic of fat burners. The addition of fat burners along with a low dose of test can be considered without significant concerns, although I personally find fat-burners unnecessary to achieve single-digit body fat percentages. Naturals can get to single digit body fat.

If you to engage in both bulking cycles and cutting cycles and claim you can fit more mass regimens then I highly doubt you are playing it safe. This is particularly true if you are not exclusively using short-estered compounds, as allowing your body to clear out and conducting blood tests before commencing a new cycle is crucial.

Furthermore, I would like to emphasize the primary argument I made earlier: Anabolic Androgenic Steroids excel predominantly in facilitating muscle growth and do not possess inherent fat-burning properties. Therefore, utilizing them during a fat loss phase can be seen as placing unnecessary additional strain on your body and investing resources in drugs that lack empirical evidence supporting their efficacy in fat reduction witch is your main objective.

It’s not about the AAS causing fat loss but the prevention of catabolism of muscle tissue in a deficit. Additionally AAS can improve feed efficiency, nutrient partitioning and other things that makes them beneficial in a cutting context.

I think you’re missing the big picture here, a cutting phase is not just about fat loss, it’s about fat loss AND preservation of accrued muscle tissue otherwise your not making progress.

 

[JC Grifter]

It is scientifically proven AAS do not have fat loss properties. That is the main premises on why I suggest not wasting cycles on cuts. Have you read anything I typed or are you just replying blindly?

I’ve never heard one person ever say steroids burns fat. Not sure where you’re coming up with that. People do cutting cycles to maintain muscle and strength on a calorie deficit.

 

[permission to land]

Does this apply to low dose Test, say 100mg-200mg to retain muscle?

 

[BigTomJ]

Does this apply to low dose Test, say 100mg-200mg to retain muscle?

If you read the thread you'll find your answer.
This was explicitly brought up extensively

 

[lukiss96]

I hate high doses when cutting. I don't want to retain additional water when I'm trying to lean out. When I cut something like say 200-400mg Testosterone usually is good enough or maybe add in anavar or equipoise to spice things up and give me that cosmetic effect to look even leaner.

 

[Spideog]

Title basically sums it up; however, I will explain my reasoning behind this opinion. AAS excel in facilitating muscle accrual but do not possess the intrinsic capacity to facilitate fat loss. Subjecting yourself to elevated androgen levels solely for the purpose of fat reduction lacks logical coherence, especially when an efficacious alternative, such as a maintenance dosage (cruise), can yield similar results. Moreover, it is imperative to consider that individuals have a finite number of opportunities to engage in intense steroid regimens aka blasts. Wasting these finite opportunities on cutting cycles is an inefficient utilization of AAS potential benefits.

Yeah I was always told to cut on a cruise because I ain’t nowhere near big enough to be messing with my health and using aas for cutting.

 

[lilhawk]

If your diet is on point, then water retention will be at a minimum pretty much no matter what you are using for gear. I know a lot of guys use anadrol in high doses to cut and retain no water. If you're cutting and aren't competing then water retention is no worry anyway, and even if competing it's not a worry until the final week of prep. What most people think is water is just fat from not dieting correctly. Anyone that thinks cutting is a waste unless you're competing is an idiot. Everyone should diet hard once a year, far better gains will be made compared to those that never do.

 

[Eddie.]

This is very interesting topic. Although i'm not a fan of the word recomp i'm gonna use it now and ask.

If an individual with 18-20% bf and minimal experience with aas but enough experience with training and dieting do his first cycle with total combined anabolics 500-700mg per week while cutting down, doesn't this mean he's actually recomping? With simple words, is it so unheard of people being in a caloric deficit to put lean tissue on while having a good amount of peds, protein and muscle stimulus through workout?

I agree though with the other guy saying cutting down from 18 to 12% is way different than 10 to 6%. And this is gonna differ regarding the tissue accrual (if any) while on deficit.

 

[malfeasance]

This is very interesting topic. Although i'm not a fan of the word recomp i'm gonna use it now and ask.

If an individual with 18-20% bf and minimal experience with aas but enough experience with training and dieting do his first cycle with total combined anabolics 500-700mg per week while cutting down, doesn't this mean he's actually recomping? With simple words, is it so unheard of people being in a caloric deficit to put lean tissue on while having a good amount of peds, protein and muscle stimulus through workout?

I agree though with the other guy saying cutting down from 18 to 12% is way different than 10 to 6%. And this is gonna differ regarding the tissue accrual (if any) while on deficit.

If you don't "recomp" on your first cycle, gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, then you are doing it wrong.

But when you are three or four cycles in, 220 pounds or more, you are going to be doing one or the other at a time, more than likely, adding muscle hopefully with minimal body fat or cutting fat with hopefully retaining muscle.

 

[Eddie.]

If you don't "recomp" on your first cycle, gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, then you are doing it wrong.

But when you are three or four cycles in, 220 pounds or more, you are going to be doing one or the other at a time, more than likely, adding muscle hopefully with minimal body fat or cutting fat with hopefully retaining muscle.

Thanks for replying, yeah that makes sense. As a natty i prefered to not stay lean because i looked small (obviously) but now i'm on gear i want to make 180* turn. I want to be lean(er) while maintain some size.

I had to chose between going on a deficit as a natty, lean down, suffer and then start gear or start gear first, no excessive amounts though, and help me recomp and lose fat while maintain some size. I chose the latter, i ve already seen different in body composition from 200 test alone while staying in maintenance calories for 4 months. Now i added 150 primo, upped the test to 275 and went into deficit, i'm 3 weeks in and lost only 2 pounds but i feel my body starts to change.

 

[malfeasance]

Thanks for replying, yeah that makes sense. As a natty i prefered to not stay lean because i looked small (obviously) but now i'm on gear i want to make 180* turn. I want to be lean(er) while maintain some size.

I had to chose between going on a deficit as a natty, lean down, suffer and then start gear or start gear first, no excessive amounts though, and help me recomp and lose fat while maintain some size. I chose the latter, i ve already seen different in body composition from 200 test alone while staying in maintenance calories for 4 months. Now i added 150 primo, upped the test to 275 and went into deficit, i'm 3 weeks in and lost only 2 pounds but i feel my body starts to change.

Just get over the mental block on getting lean. It is tough for some guys, as they get the "Oh, no! I'm shrinking!" panic mode, even though to everybody else they are looking better and better.

At some point, do a real cut, like single digit body fat.

Not only will you look great, but you will grow better from that starting point the next time around.

 

[Eddie.]

Just get over the mental block on getting lean. It is tough for some guys, as they get the "Oh, no! I'm shrinking!" panic mode, even though to everybody else they are looking better and better.

At some point, do a real cut, like single digit body fat.

Not only will you look great, but you will grow better from that starting point the next time around.

That's the plan mate! I doubt the sub 10% will be this year but next one definitely i'm gonna push it that far. I've been through a big weight rollercoaster these years, i've only leaned down once as a natty to 200 bw at 6" and from there i've been as high as 310 during the lockdown. I've lost 70 pounds last 2 years and i really hated to do another cutting phase to lean down as a natty. Now i'm 237 and aiming for 225 and 12-14% bf. If i manage to go 12% or even lower then i'll have the room to grow with a clean bulk in the off season and put some tissue on because the last 3 years i'm only aiming to lose and then maintain..

 

[ackmack78]

That's the plan mate! I doubt the sub 10% will be this year but next one definitely i'm gonna push it that far. I've been through a big weight rollercoaster these years, i've only leaned down once as a natty to 200 bw at 6" and from there i've been as high as 310 during the lockdown. I've lost 70 pounds last 2 years and i really hated to do another cutting phase to lean down as a natty. Now i'm 237 and aiming for 225 and 12-14% bf. If i manage to go 12% or even lower then i'll have the room to grow with a clean bulk in the off season and put some tissue on because the last 3 years i'm only aiming to lose and then maintain..

If you're already on gear just keep pushing till you're 10% or just a little below and then you can go from there. You said you're 3 weeks in on cycle so push it 16-20 weeks and diet and you'll get there. If you're not gonna make it to 10% what was the point of the gear, stopping at 12% just leaves you in no man's land. Bulk from there and you'll get fat quickly, might as well make the most of the cycle

 

[TurtleTank]

If you don't "recomp" on your first cycle, gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, then you are doing it wrong.

But when you are three or four cycles in, 220 pounds or more, you are going to be doing one or the other at a time, more than likely, adding muscle hopefully with minimal body fat or cutting fat with hopefully retaining muscle.

@malfeasance , what would you say are the primary pitfalls inexperienced AAS users fall into that prevent them from getting those newbie gains?

I really like this thread, despite the dumpster fire, because I'm still relatively new to this world and I've been bulking up for over a year now. Some days I feel like a whale and other days I wake up looking shredded AF. I know at some point I'm going to want to be back in single digit body fat, but I've got that catabolism fear.

 

[malfeasance]

@malfeasance , what would you say are the primary pitfalls inexperienced AAS users fall into that prevent them from getting those newbie gains?

I really like this thread, despite the dumpster fire, because I'm still relatively new to this world and I've been bulking up for over a year now. Some days I feel like a whale and other days I wake up looking shredded AF. I know at some point I'm going to want to be back in single digit body fat, but I've got that catabolism fear.

Diet.

Very few take this part seriously, even among experienced users, but a newbie with an excellent diet it is extremely rare.

If your diet is nailed, you will stand out from the others. It will show in your results.