Do Nandrolone metabolites have a large impact on natural recovery?

[jimheath]

While its commonly known that deca is a very long estered compound and takes forever to clear out of your system. I've read and heard about how the metabolites of the nandrolone can be detectable in your system for up to 18 months after your last dosage.

While I know the politically correct answer is that it can effect your recovery after you come off and you're now on TRT for life... but in a real world situation, do the metabolites of the nandrolone really have that large of an impact on HPTA recovery after the majority of the compound has halfed out of your system?
While they are anecdotes I know a few people who ran moderate dosages of nand, and then PCTed shortly after and recovered well, like any other cycle.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[EazyE]

While its commonly known that deca is a very long estered compound and takes forever to clear out of your system. I've read and heard about how the metabolites of the nandrolone can be detectable in your system for up to 18 months after your last dosage.

While I know the politically correct answer is that it can effect your recovery after you come off and you're now on TRT for life... but in a real world situation, do the metabolites of the nandrolone really have that large of an impact on HPTA recovery after the majority of the compound has halfed out of your system?
While they are anecdotes I know a few people who ran moderate dosages of nand, and then PCTed shortly after and recovered well, like any other cycle.

Any thoughts on this?

I believe it is dosage and duration dependent for the most part. However, age, previous cycle experience and other intangibles can complicate recovery. Overall Nandrolone can be a tricky compound for many people.

 

[jimheath]

I believe it is dosage and duration dependent for the most part. However, age, previous cycle experience and other intangibles can complicate recovery. Overall Nandrolone can be a tricky compound for many people.

This was my thinking as well. Obviously a 40 year old who has been blasting 600 nand a week will have a tougher time turning back on vs a 25 year old on a relatively lower dose. I just found it interesting how some of the gear YouTube channels and even some threads here act like if nandrolone is in the cycle you might as well not run a pct for months or a year after. Perhaps I just have too much faith in the bodies resilience.

 

[PeterBond]

While its commonly known that deca is a very long estered compound and takes forever to clear out of your system. I've read and heard about how the metabolites of the nandrolone can be detectable in your system for up to 18 months after your last dosage.

While I know the politically correct answer is that it can effect your recovery after you come off and you're now on TRT for life... but in a real world situation, do the metabolites of the nandrolone really have that large of an impact on HPTA recovery after the majority of the compound has halfed out of your system?
While they are anecdotes I know a few people who ran moderate dosages of nand, and then PCTed shortly after and recovered well, like any other cycle.

Any thoughts on this?

The two main metabolites of nandrolone are 19-norandrosterone and 19-noretiocholanolone. The latter doesn't appear to activate the androgen receptor, estrogen receptors or progesterone receptor at all. 19-norandrosterone is capable of activating the androgen receptor and estrogen receptor alpha, which thus — theoretically — could lead to suppression. However, the concentrations required for significant activation are enormous and it only appears to be a partial agonist for the androgen receptor anyhow. Testosterone is over 200 times as potent at activating the androgen receptor in a reporter gene assay than 19-norandrosterone. And 19-norandrosterone is inmeasurably less potent than estradiol in activating the estrogen receptor alpha. See: Detection of anabolic androgenic steroid abuse in doping control using mammalian reporter gene bioassays - PubMed

tl;dr I doubt nandrolone's metabolites hinder HPGA recovery after the nandrolone itself has cleared sufficiently.

 

[PeterBond]

REP = relative potency (compared to DHT with the AR assay and compared to estradiol with the ER assay)
RTA = relative transactivation activity
EC50 = half maximal effective concentration

 

[jimheath]

View attachment 146172

REP = relative potency (compared to DHT with the AR assay and compared to estradiol with the ER assay)
RTA = relative transactivation activity
EC50 = half maximal effective concentration

Can you explain that like I’m a caveman?

 

[PeterBond]

Can you explain that like I’m a caveman?

It boils down to the tl;dr of the previous post.

You need a very very high concentration of nandrolone's metabolites to lead to even the most negligible androgen receptor activation. And you need an inmeasurably high concentration of it for estrogen receptor activation (in excess of 10000 nmol/L).

Since suppression of the HPGA is mediated by androgen and estrogen receptor activation, they simply don't suppress in the real world because of the absurd concentrations required in order to do so.

 

[MadBret]

I've had buddies use deca throughout their late 20s and early 30s, do zero pct, and still bounced back fine. Some folks may not fair so well but I believe it to be bs when guys say to only run deca if you are already blasting and cruising or on trt.

 

[jimheath]

It boils down to the tl;dr of the previous post.

You need a very very high concentration of nandrolone's metabolites to lead to even the most negligible androgen receptor activation. And you need an inmeasurably high concentration of it for estrogen receptor activation (in excess of 10000 nmol/L).

Since suppression of the HPGA is mediated by androgen and estrogen receptor activation, they simply don't suppress in the real world because of the absurd concentrations required in order to do so.

Lol that’s roughly what I understood but I’m not smart enough to understand it for sure. This is kinda what I expected in the real world. It seems a lot of the YouTube gear dudes seem to over exaggerate the long term suppression of deca. Maybe they’re just trying to seem smarter than everyone else.

 

[jimheath]

I've had buddies use deca throughout their late 20s and early 30s, do zero pct, and still bounced back fine. Some folks may not fair so well but I believe it to be bs when guys say to only run deca if you are already blasting and cruising or on trt.

Yeah I agree with it being bs about being on trt only. I’m sure it’s coming from a place of good intention, but it just like it’s truly not that big of a deal in a real world situation. Maybe on paper, but humans aren’t paper.

 

[Millard]

I've read and heard about how the metabolites of the nandrolone can be detectable in your system for up to 18 months after your last dosage.

While I know the politically correct answer is that it can effect your recovery after you come off and you're now on TRT for life... but in a real world situation, do the metabolites of the nandrolone really have that large of an impact on HPTA recovery after the majority of the compound has halfed out of your system?

Keep in mind that most of the info discussing how long various steroids are detectable in the system is in the context of anti-doping research and has not relevance to HPT suppression.

Anti-doping researchers have been creating new tests to detect long-acting metabolites of various AAS like oxandrolone and stanozolol. This has allowed them to retroactively test stored urine sample and catch dopers that previously went undetected.

 

[Millard]

View attachment 146172

REP = relative potency (compared to DHT with the AR assay and compared to estradiol with the ER assay)
RTA = relative transactivation activity
EC50 = half maximal effective concentration

Can you explain that like I’m a caveman?

The CALUX assay was new to me and I'm sure many other people. Thanks for explaining it here and in your recent article!

 

[Bumble]

Yeah I agree with it being bs about being on trt only. I’m sure it’s coming from a place of good intention, but it just like it’s truly not that big of a deal in a real world situation. Maybe on paper, but humans aren’t paper.

Wait...i missed something somewhere...TRT dont PCT.

 

[jimheath]

Wait...i missed something somewhere...TRT dont PCT.

Have definitely thought of this. A big concern of mine with cruising is fertility. Also, I’m still very young and don’t want to make the trt commitment yet if I don’t have to.

 

[Olofmeister]

Keep in mind that most of the info discussing how long various steroids are detectable in the system is in the context of anti-doping research and has not relevance to HPT suppression.

There is a study about that i joind the pdf and link : Long term perturbation of endocrine parameters and cholesterol metabolism after discontinued abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids
But we don't know if they do a PCT
Mixed opinion on this question, personally after my cycle of deca I recovered very well confirmed with bloodwork but we are all different in this case.

 

[Type-IIx]

View attachment 146172

REP = relative potency (compared to DHT with the AR assay and compared to estradiol with the ER assay)
RTA = relative transactivation activity
EC50 = half maximal effective concentration

Great data, Peter. Could I bother you for the reference?

I'm looking as well for any bioluminescence-derived data on oxymetholone metabolite potencies for nuclear receptors (e.g., 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol)

 

[PeterBond]

Great data, Peter. Could I bother you for the reference?

I'm looking as well for any bioluminescence-derived data on oxymetholone metabolite potencies for nuclear receptors (e.g., 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol)

It's from the supplementary data from this paper: Detection of anabolic androgenic steroid abuse in doping control using mammalian reporter gene bioassays - PubMed

I've attached it for you.

 

[Type-IIx]

It's from the supplementary data from this paper: Detection of anabolic androgenic steroid abuse in doping control using mammalian reporter gene bioassays - PubMed

I've attached it for you.

Thank you, Peter.