Finasteride [5ARI] Induced/Associated Effects

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by madclown, Dec 18, 2006.

  1. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    wow clean,

    i can't really believe that you read all of that because that is a lot of information. I going to get some lab work done tomorrow and will post it when it comes in. good luck man. oneday.
     
  2. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 19

    Wednesday, January 14, 2009

    Day 19 on pct and I have discontinued the hcg last Sunday. I noticed that my morning erection started an hour before I woke up and continue for 30 minutes after. It was the strongest morning erection in weeks and it means that my balls are working to produce testosterone. I'm still unhappy about the facial and eye puffiness, so I can't wait until my face returns to normal. I'll start to workout harder at the gym because I'm unsatisfied with how my body has been for the last 2 years. I'll gradually increase the weight and duration of my workouts.

    goodnight! oneday
     
  3. s0b

    s0b Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    CLEAN>>> Why are you doding the HCG with nolva?? Did you take finasteride too?? Pls if you start the treatment keep a log so we know improvement/ side effects and all necessary info.

    ONEDAY>>> What do you mean by facial and eye puffiness?

    When did this start? Do you connect this directly to tamoxifen?? This could be a cortisol side effect as far as i understand.

    Its interesting, if anyone definately knows the effects of nolvadex on cortisol pls state so, since it is very important. Maybe there is need for some cortisol blocker during PCT, and also maybe that means that someone with adrenal issues cannot undergo PCT!!!

    well, very interesting note oneday.. give oute more info on symptoms and sides during PCT.

    I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and he was telling me that from clomid his eyes would feel very sore and sting!!!

    Its interesting to note all the sides because on different people they may have different impact depending on their current health status.
     
  4. s0b

    s0b Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Hmm i did a bit of googling articles and it states that tamoxifen may increase both anxiety and cortisol levels by 25% in a few weeks time. It also increases the levels of cortisol binding globulin up to 65%.. What that means is left to see in practice.
     
  5. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    answer s0b

    Hey s0b,

    the facial and eye puffiness started within 1-2 days of taking nolvadex. I've mentioned in the journal that my eyelids were puffy and it is tolerable. As for my actual eye balls, they are fine with one floater in my right eye (it has been there for 9 years). Did you mention that you wanted to increase cortisol and if you found research that cortisol was elevated via nolva, then pct could still be right for you.
     
  6. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    van-man's pct

    i wrote to van-man to see what kind of pct program he suggested and here's his response:

    van-man's pct:
    If you want to try it, then you need to begin with hcg. Low dose... 250iu two or three times a week spaced evenly. You will need a large supply of nolvadex and clomid to begin a recovery cycle. nolva must be run in conjunction with HCG to control estrogen sides. 20mg ED. Run HCG as long as it takes to get the testies up to a normal size. Ideally you would start with three injections per week and then pull back to two and see how the testies respond. There will be some ebb and flow to the size, but you want it to hold together somewhat decent.

    From there, you will begin clomid and nolva together. nolva @ 20mg and clomid @150mg. Do this for three weeks and then taper off of the clomid @ 50mg per week. Maintain the nolva @ 20mg throughout. You could run the nolva for three months like this before tapering off. I recommend cutting nolva in half every week until off e.g. 20, 10, 5, off.

    Give yourself a month to see how things go. Probably not great, but hopefully not bad. You will most likely have to cycle nolva one month on and one month off for a long time. And possibly even have to keep nolva on hand for a booster indefinitely.
     
  7. s0b

    s0b Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Yeah there is a long lasting dispute as for the benefits of clomid versus nolva.

    I have been reading that clomid might have some more sides (eye floaters and pain) but it is able to restore at some point more readily yout HPT axis(even without the use of hcg for some individuals) in comparison to nolva. Offcourse others debate against that and insist on the whole mixture, HcG, nolva and Aroma Inhibitor.

    Oneday regarding cortisol and nolva. If someone lacks the ability to produce cortisol due to adrenal fatigue or adrenal issues i think that nolva will be very hard on him. Imagine that drinking a cup of coffee can literally strip my energy completely for days, let alone use something stronger like an SSRI or an anticancer drug. This is why i am very thoughtful of the sides from using such drugs and keep asking you :p

    So how are you doing today by the way??
     
  8. Clean

    Clean Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    hi s0b, no I did not take finastaride but I have a similar problem due to steroids. I understand that hcg can bring estrogen levels up so that is why I am taking the nolva. When I start I will try and keep a journal, no promises.

    oneday, how are you? For how long and when will you stop completely with hcg? Wondering so I can check back and see how your buddies are doing.
     
  9. Clean

    Clean Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Some questions that missed the last post....

    Does this mean that you stop the hcg here?

    Does this mean you will have to cycle nolva even after you stop hcg? What is the nolva boosting IF you have stopped hcg?

    Van-man knows many things and I would like to follow his advice but I dont follow what he is saying, please explain.
     
  10. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 20 and 21

    Thursday, January 15 2009

    This is the 20th day on pct and felt that everything is going well.

    My balls seem normal now and don't expect them to grow anymore. Also, I've decided that two weeks of hcg was sufficient at restoring my balls to their normal size and have discontinued the hcg portion of my program. Energy has calm down a bit compared to the first week that I was on PCT. My energy has leveled out in a good way and don't have too much energy nor do I feel weak during the day. I can stay up late if I wanted to but I don't recommend it. I mentioned in the past that my erections are better if I get great sleep, so I continue to try to sleep early. I tried to take a nap today, but I was unable to and I always felt like i was conscious the whole time.

    I'm almost 3 weeks into the program and I think that nolvadex makes me feel a little depressed. Sure, some who read my journal would say that i'm an emotional guy and they are right, but nolvadex kicks the emotions up a notch. I didn't noticed it in the first or 2nd week, but now, I definitely feel depressed at times. So whoever decides to use SERM such as nolvadex or clomid, that should expect to feel more emotional and may lead into depression. For me, it is not severe depression, yet I feel down about being in this mess. To correct this, I try to focus on positive things, things that I should be happy about, like, having a job, having the ability to have erections now, and so on...

    So why didn't i post yesterday, well, I was feeling kinda tired and depressed, so i stayed away from the forum. Pretty soon, i'll be going on a trip and you may not hear from me for 1 week. So, if you don't hear from me, just know that I'm having fun. Smile


    Friday, January 16 2009

    21 days on PCT and I think I can get an erection at anytime. All I need is some porn and I will be able to get it up at 85%. I can get multiple erections in a day no problem now, but I was hoping that it would be extremely strong and they haven't been. I'll continue with the program and see how it progresses.

    The estrogen is wreaking havoc on my face, I have puffy eye lid and face, and there is nothing I can do about this for now. By the way, i fucked up yesterday and I forgot to take nolvadex last night. I don't know what was going through my mind, but I was totally out of it and just went to bed after taking vitamin E and melatonin.

    Today, I went to the doctor's office and got blood work done in the morning, so my testosterone levels should be high. I hope!!! I asked for additional test such as Estradiol and Cortisol (had this done b/c of s0b). I should get my lab work in a week or 2, then i'll post them on the forum.

    take care. oneday
     
  11. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    My balls are back to normal (they were back on the 3rd day of hCG) and I have stopped hcG after 2 weeks of usage. At this point, i'll be using nolvadex for the remaining duration of my pct.
     
  12. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Hey Clean, you're suppose to take nolvadex while you're doing hCG and take 20mg of nolvadex for 6 weeks followed by a 10-5-2.5 tapering of phase. I believe that van-man is suggesting that you cycle nolvadex to maintain the gains from pct and make sure that it sticks, so you don't regress. However, I may do a short booster course (2-3) but I won't do another 6 weeks b/c it makes my eye lids puffy.


    important: I hope that you do another 2 weeks of nolvadex for the tapering off phase b/c i believe van-man when he stated that it helps avoid estrogen shock. good luck. oneday
     
  13. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 22

    Saturday January 17, 2009

    This is my 22nd day on pct, my nocturnal and morning erections are ok and nothing to brag about. Those erections have been very consistent through the pct cycle and almost find it redundant to type about it everyday. I know you fouls out there will start asking if I don't address it. ;)

    I have a new observation and find that my mental clarity is coming back. I would categorize myself as a contemplator and each day that goes by I get more contemplative. Last week, I had a 3D mental of a device and manipulated it all in mind, which I have not been able to do in a while. After Fin, I had brain fog, loss of mental aptitude, low comprehension, and my problem solving ability was hindered. The brain fog dissipated when I was on the Big Softie's stack (ZMK, Sustain Alpha, Endo Amp, Toco-8, and Reset A.D), and within the last week, I've been more contemplative. It is just an observation. Also, I'm losing less hair per day and tonight when I was washing my hair, I lost 0 follicles vs losing 5-9 hair follicles per night. Just as a note, I have lost or my hair has thinned so much compared to last year. I noticed that the precipitous rise in testosterone/DHT has caused my hair to thin greatly. It became noticeable starting in January 2008 and has gotten worse each month. So far this month, it has seem that my hair loss has slowed down.

    (A prayer to God)
    Dear God, I have gotten myself into a big mess when I took propecia. When I considered propecia for hair treatment, I had a strong feeling, that told me it would change my personality, however, I bypassed my gut feeling and took the drug anyways. I'm sorry for not listening! I realized what I've lost and have seen and heard what it has done to others. I took the drug for various reasons and in the end, learned that my health is the most important quality that a person can have. Please help me and others restore our well being. Please watch over us and guide us, so that we may find restoration and regain what we have lost. There are just some things that are beyond science as of right now, which is why i pray to you dear God and ask for your assistant. thank you. oneday :)


    Anyhow, I continue to make gains and look forward every day! Some days like today, I almost felt like the libido wanted to come to the surface as I was listening to a very erotic female conversion but it never made it. It could be a sign of progress in this department. Maybe when I come off the nolvadex, that I'll see a precipitous rise in libido as seen by this user on clomid:
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/what-good-clomid-restart-134266056.html#post610965

    It is time to call it a night and see ya tomorrow folks. oneday
     
  14. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 23

    Sunday January 18, 2009

    This is my 23rd day on pct and things are going well. My nocturnal and morning erections are more consistent than ever. It could be either good sleep or nolvadex, or both, but my erections are pretty good. This morning, I had an erection while walking into the bathroom and after I peed, the erection went down in 5 secs. After weeks on 3 weeks on nolvadex, I've noticed that my erections have less feeling and my orgasms are less intense, which is expected.

    I've researching nolvadex's affects on the liver and I haven't found anything where ppl complained about liver issues, but here's some links that I found interesting:

    - someone's cheat sheet on nolvadex
    https://www.elitefitness.com/forum/...-sheet-tamoxifen-citrate-nolvadex-627945.html

    - first hand user of nolvadex
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/4-months-nolvadex-testosterone-134244473.html

    - uses of nolvadex
    SteroidsPlanet.com Newsletter: 02/27/06

    - dosages of nolvadex in different forms
    https://www.elitefitness.com/forum/...te-not-equal-nolvadex-tamoxifen-348090-2.html

    My entry is short today and I'll post more tomorrow. If you guys find any good nolvadex link please forward it to me. Take care. oneday
     
  15. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 24 and 25

    Monday January 19, 2009

    24th day on pct, I had only one awakening last night and woke up once at 6:00am (this is the time that I normally wake for work) I had a very strong morning erection. Erection lasted until 7am and I just stayed in bed for another hour. I think my erections are of decent strength and feel that it can get harder if I was aroused. By now, you guys know the story and nolvadex makes it harder to get aroused, as if there's a wall between your desire and you.

    As my mental clarity improves, it seems to bring out previous experiences and it makes me remember what I use to have. It is ironic, that we complain about how FIN robs us of our mental compacity and once we get it back, then we remember the times when we had that primal sexual desire, or the time we were so healthy and felt so young, that anything was possible. It is one thing that I've been thinking about the most and it takes a grip of my daily life. I talked to solonjk (from propeciahelp.com) aka s0b (meso-rx.com) and he help to put things into perspective (Reminds me of the movie Ratatouille and the Restaurant critic ask the mouse to cook him a plate of prospective). Solonjk has a difficult situation where he had FIN sides, but exhausted himself with physically grueling workouts coupled with taking some bad antibiotics for prostatis, that it has left him bed ridden for almost 2 yrs. When I was laying in my bed, I thought, man, God doesn't give a shit about me b/c there are ppl in the world in dire situations... I'm afraid of losing my hair, losing my erections, being lonely for the rest of my life, how does that compare to a person who is living in the 3rd world, fighting everyday for their survival while being under a dictatorship. Also, this figurative person, may have a crippling injury from stray shrapnel and have to embrace what they have, just to help his/her family. There are always people worse than ME and i have to stop focusing on my self pity... the world is moving along without me instead of me proactively living and contributing in some way. I've wallowed long enough and I'm going to take a step forward each day and try to LIVE again.

    Fuck, I think I'm feeling shitty b/c of nolvadex, but I can't give up. I have another 32 days left on this and it is driving me insane. This drug definitely makes you emotional and if you don't have the fortitude to deal with the emotional toll then don't start PCT.

    Getting back to ME, I gonna forgive myself for taking FIN and there is no time machine to reverse the wrongs I have made, so it is just a matter of changing how I look at myself. If I can't get erections then I'll take cialis, if I can't find someone, then I'll join eharmony.com or match.com or something, if I don't have hair, then maybe a toupee will have to do. If you are upset with yourself then forgive yourself and find an alternative solution for your problem. We are not children anymore and mommy is not going to hold your hand. We must find a way to get passed this or be stuck in regret. Your Choice, You Choose! oneday



    Tuesday January 20, 2009

    25th day on PCT, nocturnal and morning erections are fine. I had progress in my propecia side effects, when I wake up to pee during the night and go back to sleep easily, there was no racing thoughts or perpetual anxiety nor fear, just a sense of calmness that I haven't felt in a long time. Adding to the progress notes, I haven't taken hcg for more than a week and my balls have retained their shape, initially it was almost perfectly cylindrical in shape and now it is oval and taking the shape of a slice of a small orange (clementine). Erections are good but not great and erectile strength fluctuate between 70-85%.

    Emotionally, I feel like I'm in a mental purgatory and caught by the snare of propecia hell. I'm trying to break out of the negative feelings and went out on a date w/ a girl I've known. It definitely lifted my spirits and gave me a chance to interact socially with another individual. I have been in a funk for 2 years and contrast that to my former self which was completely outgoing and always tried to find humor in everything. It will take time to reclaim what I have lost and I have no doubt that I will do it too. First it will start with saying "HI" to strangers and try to start rogue conversations.

    Through an email, I laid everything on the table with my doctor and told him about my PCT. He is a nice guy and I have been going to him for almost 15 years. It kinda funny, why this stuff is so private that I'm almost unwilling to share this information with a person who should have my utmost trust. I have told only 3 people of my situation and of course, I told you guys. I have kept everything a secret and feel that I don't need people's judgment, but need their support. Usually, my life is open book, but this time I have kept this close to the vest.

    I'm almost half way done with PCT and can't wait till the day it is done, but van-man reminded me that I'm "rolling a heavy ball up hill, you gotta stay after it. You can't push the ball for a little bit and then assume it'll keep going up the hill on its own". He was referring to a one month booster of nolvadex after PCT is done, where I will stop nolvadex for one month then the following month, I'll take nolvadex again to solidify my gains.

    Keep battling ppl and we'll get there together, oneday
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2009
  16. thenxtgrt1

    thenxtgrt1 Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    oneday...do you feel that the nolva is helping with mental clarity?
     
  17. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 26 and 27

    Wednesday January 21, 2009

    26th day on pct, Erections and ball size is ok!

    Right now, nolvadex is making me emotional at times and it blunts my excitement level. Before all of this, my excitement level was sky high, just thinking about taking PCT gave me new hope that I was going to get better. I was extremely happy and it was uncontainable, but now, I think nolvadex has decreased my excitement level about everything. It is hard to explain and I haven't thought about it much enough to put it into words. Things that I would normally be happy about will only garner a dull hoorah. So I got a phone call from a girl that I've been talking to and I think I would usually be ecstatic at an occasion like that, but I didn't emote like I normally would. I had to fake excitement when i was talking to her and there is a problem with that. I think this chick is a good catch and I don't want to mess it up. I feel that my timing for PCT was off by 1-2 months and would have been better if I done a little bit sooner.

    chat with you fools later, oneday


    Thursday January 22, 2009

    27th day on PCT, I didn't get good sleep last night and it translated to a poor morning erection. I wasn't able to pay attention to my nocturnal erection because my sleep is much deeper these days and when I wake up to toss and turn, it happens so quickly that my consciousness is NOT active. Probably 2 weeks ago, I could tell you a lot about my nocturnal erections because when I would have an awakening, my thoughts automatically would flood my mind (Reminds me of Neo from the Matrix, where he would say, "hit me" and they would download stuff to his mind in a split second), and felt like I was downloaded with my to do list, or girl troubles, and I would always remember to check to see how my erections are. Whatever is going on in my body, my sleep quality is being restored, but it is happening a snails pace. Hey, as long as it is getting better than I'm not complaining. There must be a hormonal component to sleep and I haven't done much research to verify what I'm saying. I just can tell you from my anecdotal experience that I'm sleeping better as my hormones find homeostasis.

    I think I may do 1000 iu of hcg tonight, just to see if has any affect on my emotions, or changes in ball size, but I have a more fundamental problem. My nolvadex from the UK has not been delivered yet, however I have some nolvadex from India. I'm afraid to take my nolvadex from the Indian manufacturer, Dabur Pharma. I'm just concerned that it is contaminated and it may not be of the highest quality. I guess it is because I paid so little for that and it makes me weary to take it. I have about 6 tabs of 20mg nolva from my UK supplier and 100 tabs of Nolvadex from India, I will probably cut my dosage by half to hold me over til my UK shipment arrives.

    stay tune, oneday
     
  18. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    answer to thenxtgrt1

    i don't really know and it could be a number of things. I'm currently taking vitamin E, Royal Jelly sometimes, while doing pct. I attribute it to the restoration of hormones and could be that I'm getting more testosterone. If you go to propeciahelp.com you'll see a lot of ppl who have brain fog after finasteride cessation, so a disruption in the HPTA causes a change in hormones which interrupts our brain function. Since I've been on PCT, I notice that my memories are more vivid, but I don't have any direct correlation between mental clarity and nolvadex.

    hoped i answered your question. oneday
     
  19. mqsymth

    mqsymth Junior Member

    Re: Day 26 and 27

    Who is your UK supplier?
     
  20. s0b

    s0b Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Are you there man?? Its been a few days we havent heard from you?? I found the dim/indoplex from england probably gonna order it

    Take care, let us know how you doing
     
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