Finasteride [5ARI] Induced/Associated Effects

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by madclown, Dec 18, 2006.

  1. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    I've been on a trip for the last 1 week and could not get to my journal.

    My uk supplier is http://elitefitnesspharma.co.uk and they have sent me 2 successful shippments. I think their website is down and their shit is legit. I nolvadex comes from a UK manufactuer and I believe it is of good quality.

    I'll resume posting my journal today, so i'll talk to you guys later tonight. oneday.
     
  2. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 34

    Sunday February 1, 2009

    This is the 34th day of pct, I've been away in the Caribbean and didn't have any internet to update you guys on my progress. Originally, I brought my computer with me with the intention of keeping a journal, but found it hard because I was always out. When I wasn't sleeping, I was doing shit, such as, Exploring Key West, Cayman Islands, and Jamaica. Let me tell you, I almost died when I was at the Cayman Islands. We went to do some snorkeling but I didn't have any gear, but I saw a platform 50-70 yards away from shore and decided that I could swim to it. I swam against the wave, freestyling it 2/3's of the way and I thought, "SHIT, I CAN'T MAKE IT," at this point, there was searing pain in my thighs, shoulders and arms as the waves were overwhelming me. I believed that i was going to die that day and I remembered that I had family waiting back home, and they would be very upset with me if I died. I shot GOD a prayer and calmed my fears as much as I could, and tried to think rationally about how to conserve my energy for the remaining 1/3. I went with the backstroke and with each stroke I remind myself to stay calm. In these situations, Fear is your worst enemy and you can get so nervous that you forget to breath deeply to replenish the oxygen in your blood. It is possible to cramp up in the middle of the ocean and never making it back. Luckily, I mustered all the energy that I had left for the final swim. I was able to make it to the platform and rested for a very long time. After a 20 minute rest, I changed up my swim strategy to be efficient as possible and swam on my back until I made it to shore. In deed, i was very thankful that day.

    Well, In my last entry I was taking 10 mg of nolvadex (half a pill) to conserve my pills so it could last until my new shipment arrives. When I get got back from the trip, the package of nolvadex was waiting at the house. It seems that http://elitefitnesspharma.co.uk/ changed manufacturers and now, this nolva is made by Merck. Two days of 10 mg of nolvadex, I noticed that my balls were very firm and bigger compared to the last two weeks after I stopped hcg. It was good experience and I noticed differences in my mood, erections, and balls on the decreased dosage of nolva. My mood was better, erections were pretty good when I got sleep, but my balls were the most apparent and they were firm as shit. I don't know if you read articles on meso-rx.com but there are a lot of ppl who notice that their balls get momentarily soft for 1-2 weeks after hcg however, they will return to big hard balls. So I agree with that observations posted by users, but it is rarely documented about what happens after a couple of weeks after hcg. So don't worry, if they (balls) shrink a little, but they will come right back in a week or so.

    I also noticed for the first time in many years, I had a sexual dream and felt the most amazing feeling. I finally felt my penis involuntarily pulsate from the kegal muscles during this lucid dream. It probably pulsated 2-6 times, but it was hard to count b/c I was only 1/4 conscious and as I realized what was happening to me, I became more and more conscious with each pulsating action. I realized that I was about to have a wet dream, but woke up b/c i was too conscious as I analyzed every little reaction that my penis had, as it responded to the dream. I definitely feel that pct for me was the right move and this remarkable improvement is a keystone to my recovery. In past entries, I've mentioned that a pulsating penis is my measurement of recovery and I'm halfway through the PCT program. As a side note, I took zmk to reduce the eyelid puffiness that i was experiencing and don't really know if it contributed to my semi-wet dream. I'm not taking ZMK right now and there were some days (Monday and Wednesday) when I forgot to take nolvadex b/c I was so exhausted from my trip.

    I'll be taking 20 mg nolvadex and writing in the journal regularly from this point on. I'm glad to be alive and happy to resume PCT with the utmost dedication. Talk to you tomorrow. oneday
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2009
  3. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 35

    Monday, February 2, 2009

    This is my 35th day on pct and I didn't have great morning erections because I didn't sleep the full 8 hours. I went to bed late and woke up early for work. My balls size has been really good lately and I have to admit, my pecks seems fuller due to exercise and maybe the extra testosterone in my blood stream.

    At work, I had spontaneous sexual thoughts as I was checking out all the girls that walked by. I had some spontaneous erections with a 65% erectile strength because my pants were riding up my crouch and it made me excited.

    I want to mention that I found a cure for the puff eyelid and drinking decaf coffee took away the puffiness. I knew that coffee serves as a diuretic and it removes the excess water from my face.

    I feel tired today so I won't be typing much. peace out. oneday
     
  4. thenxtgrt1

    thenxtgrt1 Junior Member

    Re: Day 35

    Hey man it sounds like it's going well for you. Stay focused and keep it up.
     
  5. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 43

    Monday, February 9, 2009

    After 2 years of being unable to take naps, I was able to take my first nap yesterday (4pm-6pm). I had fried chicken with a health serving of mash potatoes with gravy and it made me feel very drowsy. Even when I was sick (having a cold use to make me very tired), I could not sleep for the life of me and now, with the help of food I was able to sleep during the afternoon. It is a relief that I'm making this much progress during pct. For those who read my journal are aware of my sleep issues and I'm making tremendous progress w/ my sleep. I sleep more deeply every night with only 1-3 awakenings that last for a sec without opening my eyes. I will experience a momentary lap of consciousness then go back to sleep compared to me opening my eyes then having random thoughts fly through my head. Today, after having a very intense meal a deep dish pizza and a steak cheese sub w/ fries made it very hard to stay awake during the afternoon. I felt like I was going to pass the fuck out and tried washing everything down with a Dr Pepper (caffeinated) which didn't help much. I don't know if my sleep improved b/c of PCT (restoring the hormones), or get extreme sun from Jamaica (restoring the circadian rhythm), or drinking decaf coffee (medicinal power of coffee). I've been drinking DECAF coffee for the last two week since I've noticed that it reduces the eyelid puffiness(side effect of nolvadex) and my sleep improved much more during this time too, so I don't know what improved my sleep quality.

    When I got back from my trip, I have not been the same and have been sort of lazy. I not ambitious nor am I overzealous about keeping up with the journal. Another reason for not keeping a daily journal is that I've been watching a lot of tv series online and catching up on past seasons that I've missed. So I haven't fully concentrated on keeping you guys up-to-date on my situation, so accept my apologies. Since I write so much, it is all or nothing process, so if I don't feel like doing it, then I won't. There were two days last week where I didn't take any nolva and hated myself for it.

    My balls feels great and plump especially when i forgot to take my nolvadex. My emotions have been awesome and I don't feel overly sad about losing my hair. I'm still a good looking guy and still have hair on my head, so I guess I'm pretty happy. To me, I think that I'm not that depressed b/c my hormones are balancing out. I feel aggressive, happy, and determined which could be a sign that testosterone coursing through my veins, and feel like my male identity is returing. My erections have gone from 65-85 range to 72-85%. Just a couple of days ago, I had 3 erections within 2.5 hrs and ejaculated each time.

    Here are my lab results

    1/16/09
    Testosterone, total 855.17 (241-827)
    Testosterone, free 16.7 (12.4-40.0)
    LH 0.8 (low)

    12/22/08
    Testosterone, total 572.83 (241-827)

    11/24/08
    Testosterone, free 4.8 L (12.4-40.0)

    So you will notice that my total testosterone went from 572.83 to 855.17, so PCT is definitely helping. During that time, I was coming off of hcg which explains why my LH is lower and another reason why my balls were slightly softer 1-2 wks after I stopped hCG. Starting next Monday, I'll decrease nolvadex from 20 mg to 10mg and I've seen what 10 mg will do to a person (it almost gave me a wet dream) when I was cutting my tablets in half to get me through until my new shipment of nolva arrive.

    I look forward to it and talking to you guys again. oneday.
     
  6. thrombus

    thrombus Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    oneday,

    Good luck on your continued improvement. When you feel up to it, let us know about your Jamaican trip.
     
  7. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 44

    Tuesday, February 10, 2009

    This is my 44th day on pct, and I noticed that my balls are softer and smaller than usual. My balls were bigger and firmer when I was taking 10 mg of nolvadex, but now taking 20 mg consistently for at least a week has made them slightly smaller, but bigger than it was prior to PCT. I'm not afraid nor will I start panicking about testicular size because I know that they have the potential of becoming bigger again once I reduce my nolva dosage.

    It is kinda strange that I sleep so well now that it makes it hard for me to analyze my nocturnal erections. However, when I would turn to sleep on my side that my erection would be pressed against the mattress and it was uncomfortable. I woke up at 8am with an erection and it was mild at 60%. Sure it has been stronger in the past but I'm on nolvadex so it affects erectile quality and sensation.

    I think I'll be taking nolvadex for the next 30 days and want to reduce my dosage very slowly to avoid estrogen shock. I have come so far to let impulsive behavior lead to a relapse in my PCT program. Here is my nolvadex schedule for next 3 weeks.

    February 16, 2009
    reduce to 10 mg of nolvadex

    February 23, 2009
    reduce to 5 mg of nolvadex

    March 2, 2009
    reduce to 2 mg of nolvadex

    **March 11, 2009**
    all done with pct and evaluate my erectile, libido, and mood for a month or so.

    I find it interesting that ppl have mentioned interest my PCT and I'm not even done with it yet. My advice is to ask yourself some questions and figure out if there is logic behind this PCT to help you. When I first started, I knew my testosterone was low, my balls were smaller, my sleep quality was shit, and lacked libido. With all of that in mind, I found van-man on meso-rx.com and Mike Scally's article which addressed hypogonadism induced by steroids, so read the logic behind Mike Scally's approach to restoring the HPTA communication. He suggested that we restore the balls so it can produce testosterone and resensitize the Hypothalamus to produce LH. For me, hcg was used to restor my balls and I believe that nolva is resensitizing my brain to produce LH. So evaluate your situation and determine if hcg/nolvadex will help you. In my opinion, If your balls are producing high testosterone then you don't need hcg.

    talk to you guys later, oneday
     
  8. thenxtgrt1

    thenxtgrt1 Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    How do you feel now compared to before you began pct? Did you start with clomid or has it just been hcg and nolva?
     
  9. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 45

    Wednesday February 11, 2009

    This is my 45th day on pct and a slight case of eyelid puffiness has reoccurred. Even though i drink coffee to bring down the swelling of my eyelids, it is not enough and I'm going to reconsider my nolvadex schedule. I will decrease starting tomorrow and take 10 mg for 12 days. Here's the schedule:

    Thursday, February 12, 2009
    reduce to 10 mg of nolvadex

    February 23, 2009
    reduce to 5 mg of nolvadex

    March 2, 2009
    reduce to 2 mg of nolvadex

    **March 11, 2009**
    all done with pct and evaluate my erectile, libido, and mood for a month or so.

    Technically we are all mad scientist when it comes to our PCT. We can change the dosage or duration of drug to suit our needs. I figure that I've been on 20 mg of nolva long enough and I was suppose to take 20mg for 4 weeks and it is past 4 weeks. There was about 6 days where I was on 10 mg, so that my remaining nolvadex would last me until the new shipment. Here's the timeline: I took 20 mg (December 28, 2008 - January 21, 2009) for 24 days, 10 mg (January 22, 2009 - January 30, 2009) for 6 days b/c I forgot to take my meds for 2 days, followed by 20 mg when I got back from my trip (January 31, 2009 - February 11, 2009) for 11 days b/c I forgot to take nolva for 1 day. After I added everything up, I was on Nolvadex for 5 weeks which means it is ok to decrease the nolvadex. I'm just tired of the side effects from nolva, such as softer balls (balls were firmer when on 10mg and when I forgot to take nolvadex), eyelid puffiness, poor ejaculate and muted orgasms.

    My sleep was poor this morning because my dog was hogging most of my bed and made it very uncomfortable to sleep. So my morning erection wasn't that great and it was about 55%. However, after some youporn action I was able to elevate it to 89%. My ejaculate has been somewhat watery lately ever since I increased my nolvadex dose. So lets see where 10 mg of nolvadex will take me.

    Take care. oneday.
     
  10. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    answer thenxtgrt1's question

    wow, that is a can of worms but I'll answer it. Prior to pct, I was getting maybe 3-5 morning erections a week, but now I get one everyday. However, my morning erections are weaker b/c of nolvadex, but it is very consistent under PCT. My lab work shows that PCT has increased my testosterone from 572.83 to 855.17. My mood was awesome (felt excited and extremely happy) for the 1-1.5 weeks under pct, followed by an emotional wreck for the next 3 weeks, and this week, I feel aggressive and confident in myself. When I forgot to take nolvadex 2 weeks ago, I almost had a wet dream which I haven't experienced that sort of sensation in 2 yrs. Balls have been restored to size and it grows then shrinks throughout the course of the day, but when I forgot to take nolvadex, my balls were much bigger. There will be some inherent side effects with nolvadex, but nothing life threatening for me and will not comment for other ppl. My sleep quality has been improved during this process and I have fewer awakenings (1-3) compared to prior to pct (5-7 awakenings). I'm able to have multiple strong erections in a row or sometimes with an hour and that was not possible prior to pct. Also, my overall ejaculate has moments where it is viscous and thick, but there are occasions where it is still watery, but prior to pct it was always watery. I still have about 30 days left in my PCT program and I think things will only get better as I decrease my nolva dosage.

    I never started clomid with my pct and I only used hcg/nolvadex for my program. I was concerned with eye floaters, joint issues, desensitizing the pituitary and liver issues with clomid which is why I never took it. Seeing the increase testosterone in my lab work demonstrated that I didn't need clomid b/c hcg/nolvadex was sufficient at restoring my balls and compel it to produce testosterone.

    Anyhow, i hope that answers your questions. oneday.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2009
  11. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 46

    Thursday, February 12, 2009

    This is the 46th day on pct and my balls was much firmer than yesterday. To give you mental picture of what my balls look like, they are the shape of a snow cone sqooshed and they are firm as shit today. Maybe the explanation for firm balls could be that I had great sleep without any awakenings. For the past 2 yrs, I always had at least 1-7 awakenings, but today I didn't have any. I believe that sleep is a major component to HPTA restoration and without it I would not have nocturnal and morning erections.

    I had a mild morning erection but I was able to work up my excitement with youporn and my erection went from 50% to 89%. I feel that within the last week, my erections from visual stimulation have increased by 5%, so it is getting stronger as I progress further in my pct.

    Tonight I'm decreasing my nolvadex to 10mg. I'll keep you fools posted. oneday
     
  12. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    clomid vs nolvadex

    I found an article posted by la_trialthete and feel that it is a must for those who are considering these drugs for pct. I was asked by someone who is considering pct to find this article and didn't want to answer 100 messages about which is better: clomid or nolvadex. It was this article that made me prefer nolvadex over clomid. This is a very good article so read carefully!

    url:
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/clomid-or-nolvadex-134247202.html#post509295


    Here is an article from William Llewellyn. You probably can't get more authoritative than him!

    Good luck....................


    Nolvadex vs Clomid by William Llewellyn

    I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

    Clomid and Nolvadex

    I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

    Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

    Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

    But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

    The Estrogen Clomid

    The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," ?a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

    Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

    Conclusion

    To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

    Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
     
  13. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    making the case for clomid

    I found this article via a post by kazman from www.propeciahelp.com and the article makes a case for clomid. Please read if you're considering pct, but this article does not go into great detail about what happens 4 months after clomid cessation. Do ppl regress and bottom out or their testosterone levels are better compared to before they started.

    Full Article:
    http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v15/n3/pdf/3900981a.pdf

    clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?

    Secondary hypogonadism is more common than primary gonadal failure and is seen in chronic and acute illnesses. Although testosterone has a role in erections, its importance in erectile dysfunction (ED) has been controversial. Hypogonadism produced by functional suppression of pituitary gonadotropins has been shown to correct with clomiphene citrate, but with a modest effect on sexual function. We wondered if longer treatment would produce improved results. A total of 178 men with secondary hypogonadism and ED received clomiphene citrate for 4 months. Sexual function improved in 75%, with no change in 25%, while significant increases in luteinizing hormone (Po0.001) and free testosterone (Po0.001) occurred in all patients. Multivariable analysis showed that responses decreased significantly with aging (Po0.05). Decreased responses also occurred in men with diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, and multiple medication use. Since these conditions are more prevalent with aging, chronic disease may be a more important determinant of sexual dysfunction. Men with anxiety-related disorders responded better to normalization of testosterone. Assessment of androgen status should be accomplished in all men with ED. For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2009
  14. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 47

    Friday February 13, 2009

    Today is my 47th day on pct and my erections were good today. It takes very little to get me erected and all I need is some visual stimulation. My balls were really firm this morning and it was the reason why my ejaculate was good. My libido is increasing for example, someone mentioned a girl's name (I have a soft spot for this girl) today and BAM, there was an erection(65%). I think this was the first case of a Name causing me to get aroused. Last night I took 10mg of nolvadex which is half of my typical dose, but reducing my medication didn't have an immediate affect on my nolvadex sides. I was hoping that my orgasms would be better and there are no fireworks when I climax. I've been feeling confident lately and happy about myself, however, I'm waiting to get triple-E (excited, enthusiastic, and elated) about stuff. Reducing the nolvadex has reduced the eyelid swelling greatly, btw some residual swelling remains.

    As for my sleep, I woke up once during the night and again when it was 6 am b/c sunlight hit my eyes. I use to sleep in a pitch black room (that word reminds of the movie Pitch Black where Riddick had to defend a menstrual little girl from flying monsters in da dark) and sleeping in a dark room made my sleep quality worse. I wouldn't wake up nor sleep at the right time because i wasn't getting the morning sunlight (Sunlight is great for resetting the circadian rhythm) in my room. Sleep has made this PCT program work and I see unequivocally how sleep impacts my erections, so it is ultra critical that everyone incorporates quality sleep as part of their PCT.

    You guys may have seen the articles that I found above in my journal and you should read them. Also, I talked to my doc and he says I can get lab work done at the end of the month. I will be taking 10 mg of nolva today and see where tomorrow takes me. oneday
     
  15. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 48

    Saturday, February 14, 2009

    This is my 48th day on pct and my balls are softer than yesterday bc I had to wake up at 6am to do something, so I didn't really get 8 hours of sleep. The article I found yesterday mention that clomid were more effective at raising testosterone and improved ED issues in hypogonadal ppl with anxiety. I read this somewhere else too and ppl with anxiety will benefit the most from PCT. I had major anxiety after I stopped propecia, so I hope that I fall into that scenario. I'm not taking clomid and feel that nolvadex will accomplish the same goals. I don't really have that much to address today, so take care. oneday
     
  16. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 49 and 50

    Sunday February 15, 2009
    49th day on pct, nothing changed from yesterday and my balls are soft today. Going to take 10 mg of nolvadex tonight. Good night.

    Monday February 16, 2009
    50 th day on PCT, I woke up this morning with a stronger erection in a while at 70% and hopefully the estrogen side effects are dissipating. I noticed that erections are easier to get since last week and my erections are not floppy like it was before I started PCT. Today was the first time I've pleasured myself since Friday and my ejaculate was voluminous as well as viscous. My balls were firm and bigger than the last couple of days. I noticed a correlation between ball firmness/size and erectile hardness. It seems that when my balls are firm, then I either get great erections or my ejaculate is like it was prior to propecia.

    My orgasms are better than it was compared to the last couple of weeks. Taking 10mg of nolvadex has made my orgasm slightly more pleasurable. I've been on the 10mg for less than a week and hope that my testosterone levels aren't changing much.

    Here is a critical observation: In November, when I drank caffeinated coffee and it drained my adrenals causing restless sleep. Now, I drink coffee or caffeinated soft drinks and I'm able to sleep without any issues. I don't want to push it by drinking more than one caffeinated drink, but I'm surprised at the quality of sleep that I've been getting since being on PCT. I'm truly puzzled that stopping propecia fucks ppl's sleep quality and now, my testosterone levels are a lot higher than what it was 1 month ago, that it has restored my sleep. In July 08, I noticed that my erections were rock hard, tiny hairs on my chest became more prominent, beard grew thicker (signs of increased testosterone) when I was taking toco-8, sustain alpha, zmk, endo amp, and so on, but my sleep never made huge improvements like it has under PCT. The only hypothesis I have is that the increase estrogen (nolvadex increases estrogen) and testosterone is correcting something in the adrenal and thyroid system. I saw very little improvements in sleep quality when only testosterone levels were high with the help of sustain alpha and zmk (natural estrogen inhibitor) by limiting the estrogen in your body. For me, increased estrogen and testosterone are key components to why I think my sleep has gotten so much better.

    It won't be too much longer before I take the last pill for PCT. I figure that I have roughly 3 weeks left and I'm happy with the progress so far. I've noticed that there are a lot of you going through extraordinary lengths to find a cure for yourself, such as flying to other states to see a well known Endo, or a urologist, getting exotic herbs from different places, or seeking out doctors to get prescriptions for GHB(I personally did this), but this PCT program has been the easiest to implement. I hate going to doctors b/c I always have to prove to them that I have propecia side effects and if they do believe you they can't do much for the fear of getting sued. I didn't need a doctors help for this PCT program because I did a lot of research online and purchased my supplies from the internet. I've spent a lot of money already flying around to get the prescription of Xyrem (GHB) and I wished I stumbled onto this PCT protocol earlier to avoid 2 years of having awful sleep along with poor erections. Anyhow, give it another month and I'll tell you guys whether this program was worth trying.

    Cost of PCT program is under $200.


    Talk to you guys later. oneday
     
  17. s0b

    s0b Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Hey oneday, nice job there, hope you are feeling great by now. I got a permanent boost on my T levels and my strength and energy increased permanently (though just a little) after using ONLY 1 pill of an ayurvedic drug called Speman which is known to resensitize the pituatary to hypothalamic stimulation, so there goes all the adrenal fatigue theory down the drain.. Its rather an overall HPTA axis dysregulation rather than a true disease.
    Offcourse the sides i got due to the 5-a reductase type I enzyme damage are evident. Any exogenous boosting and increase in testo causes massive increase in estrogen and further prostatitis and ball pain and shrinkage. One pill of speman caused this imagine using stronger LH agonists!!!!!

    i am very worried lately that if i go onto pct without proper estrogen control i will have SERIOUS problems. I hope its estrogen that causes all this damage on my prostatitis and balls and not something else!!! (like testosterone #!)$*!)@($* for example) I hope that my ball size can be reversed without sides also at some time. (pct is my last and only resort so keeping my fingers crossed for you)

    Take care



    .
     
  18. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 57

    Monday, February 23, 2009

    This is my 57th day on pct protocol, my nocturnal and morning erections are the same like it has been for the past few weeks. My balls seems full and gets firm most days in the morning. I started to get spontaneous erections which started this week. It only happened 3 times this week and the erection firmness was 55-60%. I remember in November 2008 (3 months ago), I was not getting any nocturnal nor morning erections then as I got better sleep, there would be 2 soft erections per week and gradually over 2 months I ended up getting one everyday; so hopefully, the same thing applies to my midday spontaneous erections.

    My emotions are good and ppl noticed a difference in my personality. One person mentioned that I started to flirt more with the ladies at work and that maybe true. I feel more confident in myself and don't feel as introverted as I have been, ever since I experienced propecia side effects.

    I don't know if you guys experienced this but when I stopped taking propecia, my inner hairs in the ear started to fall out. It was a daily nuisance and kept me up some nights b/c of inner ear itch. If I didn't cotton swab my inner canal for lose hairs, then it would keep bugging me during the day and night. The issue started to improve as I got better sleep 3 months ago, but under PCT, I don't have inner ear itch due to hairs falling out. There were times that the itch was so deep in my ear canal, that i could not physically reach it with a q-tip. Thank god I don't have those issues anymore because it was annoying as shit.

    The reason why I didn't post anything lately was because I was a little disappointed with the PCT program. Usually on this protocol, I would notice changes every 3-5 days and I didn't have any pronounced improvements, other than the 3 spontaneous erections. I rarely got any spontaneous erections in the past, maybe 1 spontaneous erection in November before pct.

    The swelling around my eyes have gone down to 5% and when I reduce my nolvadex from 10 mg to 5 mg tonight, that all swelling will disappear. I will be taking 5mg for 1 week and I really really really hope that I get 4-5 spontaneous erections, or maybe some ungodly libido.

    Please continue to wish me luck. oneday
     
  19. thenxtgrt1

    thenxtgrt1 Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Stay positive bro...I know it will work out for you.
     
  20. oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 61

    Friday, February 27, 2009

    This is the 61st day on pct and no earth shattering improvements. Briefly, I'm emotionally stable and happy, so maybe it is a reason why I haven't been conjuring with you guys in the forum. When I was on PCT (higher doses of nolvadex), I was feeling depressed and fully invested myself in the forum to pick up my spirits. Well I'm feeling confident and laughing more these days since I've started 5mg last Monday.

    I feel that my erection quality range has improved and it went from 65-85% to 70-90% when I'm excited. I'm gotten 2 spontaneous erections of the floppy kind this week. My morning erections are lasting longer and it is stronger than the prior week. So far, so good! It is strange that I always focus on the improvements, but I'm going to look at the reverse picture and I noticed that I'm not regressing while I decrease the nolvadex dosage, so i'm maintaining the progress I've made. Also, another bad sign, I'm noticing more head itch and it could mean that I'll be losing more hair. :( Also, I got two pimples on my right cheek and could be another sign that hormones are changing.

    I'll be reducing nolvadex to 2.5mg on 3/02/09 and my last dose will be on 3/09/09. Wahoo! Btw, cutting the nolvadex pill into 8's to get 2.5 mg of nolvadex is going to be tough.

    later, ppl. oneday.
     
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