Pericles
New Member
OK, the conclusion more is better, if I read correctly.. More importantly, how are 262 men w/ AIDS extrapolated to the general public, let alone hard core gym rats.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
High dose anavar?
- Thread starter Kamala
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OK, the conclusion more is better, if I read correctly.. More importantly, how are 262 men w/ AIDS extrapolated to the general public, let alone hard core gym rats.
I think it really depends on what you mean by effective. Are you looking to gain strength, get leaner, or maybe gain more mass? Are you looking for something that will make you an animal in the gym? I'm with Peicles here. Trying to determine an optimum "effective" dose from a study on weight gain of HIV patients is really a stretch. I don't know anyone who uses var with the primary purpose being that of gaining mass.
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That's odd. I usually get slapped when I talk dirty.
Slapped in the face or slapped on the ass?
I think it's true that IFBB pros are good responders to AAS. Does that mean they get more benefit from 240mgs than 120mgs? If they do, it's probably only a tiny percentage of difference. But maybe that's enough to make the difference between the winner and loser. I don't see how it could be a dramatic difference even with good genes, they're still human.
It's difficult to draw any conclusions based on what the pros use, though. They use a shotgun approach to drug use and I suspect most of them have no idea what is doing what. It's an interesting topic, though.
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Pericles
New Member
I think the only way to properly conduct an analysis for us GyM Rats. Guys like me and a large % of forum members) that put their training ahead of everything else, including my wife[
)], yes)? OK my son comes first, but only because he is a bad ass little five year old).
Lets analyze the effect on hard core guys...but we first need to define hard core. I have seen some clean guys who really trained like animals. We could set up a study, but again, we are unlikely to have a large enough # of participants to satisfy a study that is both valid and reliable. Validity and reliability depend on 2 basic things: First we will need an ANOVA (analysis of variance) and some other statistical measures like T scores and margins of error that weed out the bullshit factor. As mentioned, these types of indicators need a larger sampling body.
More importantly, we need a study that makes sense that can be extrapolated to a more general population. The old saying is "garbage in, garbage out". Trying to apply a study based on AIDS patients to predict the effect upon robust hard core body builders and strength athletes is, Garbage in".
)], yes)? OK my son comes first, but only because he is a bad ass little five year old).Lets analyze the effect on hard core guys...but we first need to define hard core. I have seen some clean guys who really trained like animals. We could set up a study, but again, we are unlikely to have a large enough # of participants to satisfy a study that is both valid and reliable. Validity and reliability depend on 2 basic things: First we will need an ANOVA (analysis of variance) and some other statistical measures like T scores and margins of error that weed out the bullshit factor. As mentioned, these types of indicators need a larger sampling body.
More importantly, we need a study that makes sense that can be extrapolated to a more general population. The old saying is "garbage in, garbage out". Trying to apply a study based on AIDS patients to predict the effect upon robust hard core body builders and strength athletes is, Garbage in".
There are 3-4 studies using var at upper end doses and no benefit has been shown in any I'm aware of.
Perhaps Dr S can shed some light on the subject.
PC
If you believe any Mr O became so because of Var your completely missing my point. (If at all possible, it would be great if you could locate the source of a quote in the future, especially when the topic is relatively controversial such as "high dose Var")
The specifics of quotes made by those experienced Mr O's in particular would help define, on a contextual basis, those details which may either increase or decrease the effectiveness of any AAS such as;
What other anabolic agents (GH, AAS, Insulin, etc) were they using and their dosages?
What dietary modifications were a part of their lifestyle?
What was their exercise routine?
I'll promise you this NO Mr O became a winner because of Var. (but heck your already aware of this and probably the rest of this post, lol)
I've grown increasing weary of those quoting the experience of other BB from a yesteryear era when the evidence simply was not available to support OR refute their claims to fame OR regime.
However so much has been learned over the past FOURTY YEARS, which in many instances is capable of reinforcing or negating the "experience" once believed to be golden and in many instances extrapolated to bonafied evidence. (AKA "bro science")
Ergo because the research exists it should be embraced, critically appraised and applied, for the benefit of the entire profession of BB, to do otherwise confirms the belief, of those convinced BB and the use of AAS is anything but a science based sport, (which has been a MAJOR obstacle towards achieving the recognition desired and deserved in the sports community)
Best to ya mate,
Jim
Perhaps Dr S can shed some light on the subject.
PC
If you believe any Mr O became so because of Var your completely missing my point. (If at all possible, it would be great if you could locate the source of a quote in the future, especially when the topic is relatively controversial such as "high dose Var")
The specifics of quotes made by those experienced Mr O's in particular would help define, on a contextual basis, those details which may either increase or decrease the effectiveness of any AAS such as;
What other anabolic agents (GH, AAS, Insulin, etc) were they using and their dosages?
What dietary modifications were a part of their lifestyle?
What was their exercise routine?
I'll promise you this NO Mr O became a winner because of Var. (but heck your already aware of this and probably the rest of this post, lol)
I've grown increasing weary of those quoting the experience of other BB from a yesteryear era when the evidence simply was not available to support OR refute their claims to fame OR regime.
However so much has been learned over the past FOURTY YEARS, which in many instances is capable of reinforcing or negating the "experience" once believed to be golden and in many instances extrapolated to bonafied evidence. (AKA "bro science")
Ergo because the research exists it should be embraced, critically appraised and applied, for the benefit of the entire profession of BB, to do otherwise confirms the belief, of those convinced BB and the use of AAS is anything but a science based sport, (which has been a MAJOR obstacle towards achieving the recognition desired and deserved in the sports community)
Best to ya mate,
Jim
The study was NOT performed on "AIDS" patients which could IMO have made a difference in outcomes.
Moreover they were not placed on an exercise regime involving the use of large muscle groups which has been shown to enhance testosterone levels and in some cause AR down-regulation.
However will these changes create an unexpected and remarkable difference in the proportional dose related benefit, I think NOT. Why?
Because this same dose:benefit ratio is the observed with all AAS!
Stated more specifically, the proportional benefit of AAS decreases as the dosage increases (and any experienced BB has noted this fact).
So why is Var any different? Well it's not and this study simply reinforces what is already known, nothing more or less.
Jim
Moreover they were not placed on an exercise regime involving the use of large muscle groups which has been shown to enhance testosterone levels and in some cause AR down-regulation.
However will these changes create an unexpected and remarkable difference in the proportional dose related benefit, I think NOT. Why?
Because this same dose:benefit ratio is the observed with all AAS!
Stated more specifically, the proportional benefit of AAS decreases as the dosage increases (and any experienced BB has noted this fact).
So why is Var any different? Well it's not and this study simply reinforces what is already known, nothing more or less.
Jim
I've read that Var and primo are the most commonly faked chemicals in UG labs because of the cost of the raws, this is a very good theory as well as your latter theory.
Thanks to everybody that responded, can never have enough input & veteran experience in things like this!
I hope you didn't develop the "fog" reading the varied opinions on your thread, KM.
Pericles
New Member
The source of my quote came from Chris. Why Dorian chuckled, I don't know....maybe he just wanted me to leave him alone (and he is, IMO the greatest bodybuilder ever, and a very intelligent one at that). Of course, duh, anavar alone could would not be the key to his success. He did massive amounts of everything IE polypharmacy and 5 grams of test a week, etc. He also trained harder than anyone else.
However, it seems you have failed to understand my point: These studies have virtually no correlation to the populace, and especially no insight into how they would affect gym rats. You say there are 3-4 others, but that would be like adding 4 zeros together, you still have zero. Thats worse than Bro Science. I have a friend, a very heavy steroid user hoping to make a run at a Masters pro card. He has found, over many, many years that 100 mgs works best for him.
Have you ever noticed a guy that could drink massive amounts of alcohol and be fine (assuming he does not drive). At the age of 25, I was drinking a minimum of 15 beers a day. BTW, I have not had a drink in 23 years. I have a theory, that guys who could drink amounts that would kill others, usually (assuming they stopped drinking) are the type that are able able to tolerate more gear.
We need to stop comparing apples to oranges.
No correlation with the population of interest, of course they do.
So how and why would the response to Anavar be SO DIFFERENT in those with HIV whom didn't exercise, compared to "gym rats"?
Oh I suspect the gymnast would achieve a greater benefit sure BUT the variance is NOT the consequence of using 240mg of Var daily, (which is utterly absurd) but rather the exercise and diet I spoke of earlier.
You apparently are unwilling to accept a well established fact that the proportional benefit from AAS decreases as the dosage increases.
Moreover if you choose to ignore every AAS study performed on non-athletes good luck locating any which meet your criteria. Why because the use of performing enhancing substances for that select purpose is unethical and in many instances illegal!
So good luck acquiring said study approval by ANY governing agency which oversees medical research!
Accordingly I guess we will just continue with the onslaught of bro science, NOT!
Because we can and must do better for our patients and the profession itself!
Jim
So how and why would the response to Anavar be SO DIFFERENT in those with HIV whom didn't exercise, compared to "gym rats"?
Oh I suspect the gymnast would achieve a greater benefit sure BUT the variance is NOT the consequence of using 240mg of Var daily, (which is utterly absurd) but rather the exercise and diet I spoke of earlier.
You apparently are unwilling to accept a well established fact that the proportional benefit from AAS decreases as the dosage increases.
Moreover if you choose to ignore every AAS study performed on non-athletes good luck locating any which meet your criteria. Why because the use of performing enhancing substances for that select purpose is unethical and in many instances illegal!
So good luck acquiring said study approval by ANY governing agency which oversees medical research!
Accordingly I guess we will just continue with the onslaught of bro science, NOT!
Because we can and must do better for our patients and the profession itself!
Jim
I'm not sure what your argument is. What is your concern with the study? By your own admission, returns start to diminish above 60mg/day. The study found a similar result.
Most of the research I looked at used bid dosing.
This is a strange conversation. People keep talking about the "effectiveness" of var without being the least bit clear about what they mean by effective. It's as if there is some predetermined absolute meaning that remains constant across all ASS and all ASS cycles. I guess the op is somewhat to blame for this because he never stated any particular goal. He just asked about taking 70 - 100 mg's with no particular purpose given.
Re: Re: High dose anavar?
Perculis being a Lean SIG Sigma Black Belt looks at how the data was compiled, and the survey to establish base lines. Without knowing certain variables it's hard to see what is going to get washed out. Studies are good, but can become great with a few more questions in determining baseline parameters and ranges. Again, certain numbers are needed to validate your data from a correct sample size. Just a question, do the returns really start to diminish? None of the studies were done on test subjects that were BB with a complete different physiological make up. Not to mention the additional supplements/diets. Would the var not clear a BB systems faster than someone who is lethargic. In which case 40mgs to each individual run may have substantially different half life's. So would they benefit the same results?
Perculis being a Lean SIG Sigma Black Belt looks at how the data was compiled, and the survey to establish base lines. Without knowing certain variables it's hard to see what is going to get washed out. Studies are good, but can become great with a few more questions in determining baseline parameters and ranges. Again, certain numbers are needed to validate your data from a correct sample size. Just a question, do the returns really start to diminish? None of the studies were done on test subjects that were BB with a complete different physiological make up. Not to mention the additional supplements/diets. Would the var not clear a BB systems faster than someone who is lethargic. In which case 40mgs to each individual run may have substantially different half life's. So would they benefit the same results?
I don't know about KM but I've noticed the ape in your avatar is coming into focus and the rack is fading. Does that mean I'm getting the "fog?"
How in the heck someone can determine the "benefit" of ONE drug in a particular drug class when the subjects under study are consuming them ALL is beyond laughable.
Similarily, why some are more than willing to repeatedly ignore this form of diminutive anecdotal "experience", yet stil suggest it's evidence, denotes one of many fallacies commonplace to "bro science"!
Fine work CBS, IMO.
Jim
Similarily, why some are more than willing to repeatedly ignore this form of diminutive anecdotal "experience", yet stil suggest it's evidence, denotes one of many fallacies commonplace to "bro science"!
Fine work CBS, IMO.
Jim
Pericles
New Member
Ironically, Jim, you are correct about one thing:: A study of professional BBers could never be representative of AIDS patients. But please Jim, reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Did I ever once claim that what is good for Dorian is good for AIDS patients, or the general population? No, I did not....why are you saying that I did, especially since that would be just as bad as using the HIV study to determine meaning to me or pros? Are you aware that Dorian walked around at 320 lbs? What was the average weight of the study participants?
Again, apples and oranges.
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