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Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by frankwhardy, Sep 30, 2005.
Thanks for your support Keriheat.
You are Welcome.
I'm not really sure what else there is to say other than, I dont like spitting contests and didn't mean to turn this into one. idmd is a very intelligent guy and usually studies up on his subjects. I seldom disagree with him and find most of his posts thoughtful.
One of the reasons I believe there is so much vacillation on the discussion of TRT, is because our bodies are constantly changing. I mean daily! We think we zero in on a protocol, and bam! something changes. I believe this is why good doctors get bad raps.
Why do people get the flu? why do people get colds? why can't we cure cancer after all these years and the billions spent in research? Why can't we dial in a one-size-fits-all in testosterone Therapy?
The body is constantly changing along with how we treat our bodies, how we fuel our bodies and how we use our bodies. Most important...there are no 2 bodies alike.
The one conclusion I can come too is... I think this worked for me. It may need an adjustment tomorrow. The best we can do, is seek a good doctor. Read and study as much as we can on the subject and learn from others experience as a possibility. This board and its membership holds a lot of answers for us but it requires 'due diligence' to find our own 'silver bullet'--if there is one!
Well said. I don't care for conflict either (unless there's a good reason for it). I agree that what works for us at one point in time, may not work for us at another point in time. Our health, diet, evironment and physical condition never remain static, so we can't expect a certain protocol to always remain effective. Last year I had to change my fiber supplement from Psyllium to Acacia. I also eliminated Gluten form my diet. The only liquid I drink is water. To say I am health conscious is an under-statement. I'm so high maintenance, that at times I can't stand living with myself. For quite a while now I have been able to use natural supplements to keep my health in what I consider a good state of health. However as age creeps up on me (52 on the 17th of this month) and my digestive, physical and hormaonal systems age feel I have to look at phamacutial aids. I wish I didn't. It's inconvenient at best. No one likes to take shots on a regulat basis, but I hope the trade-offs will be worth it. Oh well, onward we go on this journey called life. I'll keep you guys updated on my little experiment. Just did my 200 iu of hcg this morning. Another 200 iu of HCG, SuperMic and B-comlex shots tomorrow. Second shot of 1/2cc (50 mg) Test on the next day (Sunday). Wouldn't it be great if I got this dialed in on the first attempt? Keep the advice coming.
Best of Luck rmarganti but I believe this journey may require constant tweaking.
The one thing I would add to this discussions is this. We should always try to be patient. What I mean is, dont be too quick to change...you know 'knee jerk' reaction. Let's say are sex life is great and we feel strong and all of a sudden that feeling starts to dial down. We shouldn't just all of a sudden change are protocol. It could be just a body adjustment or a diet change or a body change due to stress. If we change our dosage or add or subtract another element, we may have just killed our sweet spot. Had we waited (patience) the cycle would possibly have just passed by it self.
That is not to say we dont need adjustments, just dont be so eager to do so. IMO
Very well said keriheat. My statement "constant" tweaking wasn't the best choice. I just haven't heard of anyone getting "dialed in on first attempt". I guess that's why we're all here - sharing our experiences getting or trying to get dialed in.
My treatment has been going well so far. No complications with any injections yet. I've taken the advice of members of tthe forumn and now take my Test Cyp 2 X weekly .25cc(50mg) on sundays and thursdays. I take my hcg, B-complex, and MIC on the days I don't take the test (Mon, tues, wed, fri, sat).
I lowered my dose of hcg to 150 iu this week due to having a very slight soreness in my right pec under the nipple. I can't really feel anything there when I examine it, but I'm worried about possible gyno.
I am using DIM 200mg 2 x daily and 15 mg zinc/1 mg copper 2 x daily for estrogen control which worked fine when I was on hcg monotherapy of 250 iu daily. All three of my labs over a 3 month period of time while on hcg monotherapy had my E2 at 20 or 21.
Could the test be raising my E2? I am going to add another 50 mg of zinc daily to see if it helps.
I am due for more labs May 2nd. Should I wait until then to consider adding an AI? Or should I add something now? I am considering Liquidex or Liquid Tamox from ar-r dot com. Anyone have experience with these companies or their products? If so, are thes oral products and what would a good starting dose be? Looking fo a little advice guys
You are so close to labs, what 2 weeks? I would wait for the results of the new labs before making a decision on an AI. I'm not familiar with the liquid. I am using anastrozole in the pill form.
This is TRT!!!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCc-RWIp7XU]Lurch - YouTube[/ame]
I don't like driving blind, so I went and had my labs done this morning. It's only $50 to test E2, FSH, LH and total T with privatemdlabs dot com. I might have results back tomorrow. I'll post when I do. Thanks for the reply keriheat and the comedy doc.
I'm due for my next 1/4cc (50 mg) of test today. should I wait for my labs to come back (maybe tomorrow) before taking it?
I decided to take my shot last night. I'm glad I did. I got up this morning and my right nipple was back to normal again. No pain, sensitivity or detectable swelling or lumps. I trained chest yesterday. Maybe it was some leftover muscle soreness from my last chest training that I worked out? I also took an extra 50 mg of zinc yesterday and the day before. No hcg yesterday either.
My labs from yesterday (4/18) were posted this morning too. Mostly good news. My total test was 902! Up from 586 on my last labs exactly a month ago (3/18/13). I must be responding well to taking the Test Cyponate sub-Q. I took my first shot on 4/3/13. I am ony taking 1/4cc (50 mg) twice in 8 days ( 1 shot followed by 3 days off). I had my blood drawn before I took my test injection yesterday. My last injection was Sunday. For my test to be at 902 after 3 days of no test injections is pretty damn good. I wonder what it was at it's peak shortly after my injection Sunday? I took no hcg yesterday either
Bad news is my E2 went from 21.1 last month to 33.3 on this test. Also my serum calcium went from 9.6 to 10.3. Normal range is 8.7-10.2. Is this something to be concerned about? I didn't fast for this test like I did last month. Would that make a difference?
Besides the slight pressure sensitive soreness just below my right nipple that seems to have went away, I am feeling better than I've felt in a long time. I had some gyno removed from my right nipple about 10 years ago. I wonder if I'm just extra sensitive to hormone fluctuations in that area?
As a result of the sesation of my nipple symptoms and considering my test results and current state of being, I am going to tweak my dosing only slightly.
I am happy with my test reading and so I will leave the dosage and frequency alone for my Test C injections. 1/4 cc (50 mg) twice every 8 days seems to be on target.
I am not too concerned with my E2 levels, however I'd like to get them down in the 20's again. I really don't want to add an anti-E to my regimen yet as I think the least amount of pharmacueticals one uses the better off you are. Not to mention it's less costly too.
I will keep the extra 50 mg of zinc in my daily supplement regimen to see if that makes a difference. I will take 15 mg zinc/1mg copper in the morning and evening and 50 mg zinc in the afternoon. This means my total for the day is 80mg zinc/2mg copper. I will also continue to take 200 mg DIM 2 times a day.
I think a little experimentation with my dosing of hcg might help bring my E2 levels down. I will start out by adjusting my hcg shots to 150 iu per day on the 2 days prior to my Test injection.
So, the new protocol will be 1st day Test injection (no hcg) 2nd day - no hcg, 3rd day - 150 iu hcg, 4th day - 150 iu hcg. Repeat. This would add up to 600 iu of hcg every 8 days. I remember reading on the forum that one of the HRT doctors uses I similar protocol with succuess. I think it may have been Crisler.
I am also happy with the energy improvements and waist size reductions resulting from my daily B-Complex and MIC inections, so I will continue these.
I am still relatively new at this, so I welcome all advice and comments. Thanks for taking the time and interest in my posts. I appreciate it.
I ordered a bottle of Liquidex today. I should have it next week. The potencey is 1 mg per ml. I 'd like to get my E2 levels back in the low to mid 20's. I was thinking of starting with a dose of .25 mg 2 X weekly. This seems to be the starting point for most of the users on the forum. Anyone have any experience with Liquidex? Can I just remove the needle from one of my syringes and fill it up to 1/4cc to get a dose of .25 mg? Can I just swallow it or is it a sublingual sollution?
I also picked up some 120 - 10mg tamoxifen Tabs for $95 on the Internet, just to be safe. I won't recieve them for 2 weeks though.
Any dosing reccomendations guys? C'mon and help the rookie out.
Evaluation Of The Efficacy Of Subcutaneous Administration Of testosterone In Female To Male Transexuals And Hypogonadal Males
Evaluation of the efficacy of subcutaneous administration of testosterone in female to male transexuals and hypogonadal males -- Olshan et al. 34 (3): MON-594 -- Endocrine Reviews
FDA-approved indications for depot testosterone (T) only allow it to be administered intramuscularly (IM). Barriers to IM testosterone injections are pain/discomfort/hematoma and the frequent necessity for a nurse or other person to administer the injection which can be inconvenient and expensive. Barriers to alternative transdermal preparations are expense (often not covered by insurance), local reactions, and the fear of skin to skin transmission.
Based on the personal experience of one of us (NS) and the late Jack Crawford MD with weekly subcutaneous (SC) T injections for the management of female to male (FTM) transgender patients, we have initiated a prospective study with the intent of enrolling 20 patients to assess the safety and absorption of SQ T therapy in a population of FTM individuals and classical hypogonadal males.
The initial 7 patients (5 FTM and 2 hypogonadal males) ranged in age from 18-58 (mean 28.2 ± 5.9SE). T enanthate or cypionate was administered at a dose of 50-60 mg sc once weekly using 5/8" 23g or 25g needles. Serum total T concentrations were measured by tandem mass spectrometry.
T levels were well within the therapeutic range varying from 320-824 ng/dL (mean 608± 82SE). No adverse reactions at the site of injection or otherwise were reported or observed. The injections were easily self-administered except for one patient who was blind. Initial data from our study are promising regarding the SC administration of T. SC T was well tolerated and produced therapeutic serum concentrations at doses generally lower than required for IM injections.
These data will provide a foundation for additional studies of pharmacokinetics, efficacy and safety to hopefully characterize SC T as a safe, convenient, and affordable alternative to IM injections.
Thanks for the information doc. I have finally got my TRT dialed in (for now). I currently inject .1 cc (20 mg) of Test cyponate (200 mg per cc) every other day subQ. I inject .25 cc (250 mg) of hcg subQ every other day (on the days I don't inject the test). I was able to discontinue the anti-aromatase medications and all is good in the world. Just goes to show more isn't always better. I feel 10 years younger after ony 12 weeks of TRT.
I have a doctors appointment in a couple of weeks and I'll post my lab results when they are available. - Roy
Glad to hear you're dialed in rmarganti! I was very content with a very similar protocal, as you know. However, I have tweaked it, to daily injections of testosterone propionate. I am know using 1/2" 30g syringes and injecting into delts, thighs (shallow IM) and abdomen (SQ).
What a difference! Wow!
I'm going for labs on monday the 24th - will post when the results are available (probably in a week)
Why would anyone want to use those railroad spikes for their injections? I use the same injection sites for my T injections except the abdomen. I use the abdomen for my hcg. I alternate my hcg injections from 1 side of my abdomen to the other. What kind of doses are you using? If you are using HCG, what dose and frequency? Any anti-e meds?
Your daily use of T has me thinking. What are the benifits of daily T administration? If I use more than .1 ML/cc of Test cyponate every other day I get a little tenderness in my right nipple after while. I then have to administer a minute amount (.025 ml) of liquid arimidex to get rid of it. I might be able to increase my weekly dose of T by administering .06 ML daily and working up from there?
Lastly, anyone out there have any experience/knowledge on the use of nolvadex? How does it compare to the Liquid Arimidex I use? Every couple of weeks or so, I get a little tenderness in my right nipple. A very minute dose of liquid Arimidex gets rid of it. It seems like the Arimidex improves the quality of my erections too. Just wondering if the tamoxifin I have might work better? I have 120 - 10 mg pills. Tought about trying a dose of 10 mg every 3rd day. I had some gyno removed from my right nipple about 10 years ago and thought it might be good insurance.