MALDI-TOF-MS/HPLC-UV-VIS rHGH results

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Those "bros" you are referring to that posted bloods on another forum I'd vouch for anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.
I've seen M96ss post now for over a dozen years and have pm'd him in the past on matters pertaining to gh. Not once have I ever had the impression or suspected M96ss was in the game for any other reason than finding affordable pharma quality gh. The other testers in that thread like Racepicks, Buck, Viking, all of which I've communicated with at one time or another are spending a lot of their own time and money to test these products and post their results for ANYONE to see.
They may not have 1/10th of the education in your field but that in no way diminishes what they have contributed to the community. IMO the point of in-vivo and in-vitro testing is NOT about taking sides but instead collecting data from all methods and finding the truth without also discounting common sense.

Jim, clearly you are more educated in this field than 99% of members here. Please stop taking things so personally and try to understand that we are all just trying to make sense of things.

Rick Kane aka Nozeryder aka Pray4surf aka
Tubes-Boobs-n-Doobs <--1997 original handle from Anabolex

What does all that have to do with the main part of Dr Jim's post, i.e., these bros posted no baseline for comparison and were using untested GH?

Dr Jim posted several good reasons for why the reliability of in vivo GH testing is unreliable, and shouldn't be looked at in isolation from in vitro testing.

What are some of the reasons for the differing IGF/HPLC values? One only needs to know and understand how certain factors effect the reliability of in-vitro testing but here are a few;

1) the generic GH was not folded correctly

2) the testing interval was to SHORT (2 vs 6 weeks for example)

3) the in-vitro and in-vivo assays were not conducted on the same generic "batch".

I've every reason to believe that's the case on the last four, if not all of the tests I conducted since NOT ONE PERSON who was running THE SAMPLES I PERFORMED ASSAYS ON ever posted IGF levels

(Using GH/IGF data obtained from users on other forums is anything but objective duh)

4) the variable GH concentrations among different generic "batches"

5) the well documented genetic differences of GH/IGF dose response curves

6) the extremely small number of individuals used to determine a GH/IGF dose response curve

7) the extremely small number of samples tested

8) the desire of others to make broad conclusions based upon limited data.

9) the need for the "bro
community" to extrapolate extremely confined data sets into simplified user friendly yet erroneous conclusions

10) the remote possibility GH elves substituted lower concentration GH in "Jim's lab"

 

[mands]

All prior samples were assayed using a Humatrope standard and that includes the HPLCs of the last four that were posted

Genotrooin was the standard used for the MS results of the last FOUR samples posted.
=====-----------------------=======
Hey Muscles will you ever POST "the truth" on Karl's GH.

You entered Meso some time ago stating your reason for being here was "the truth" but months later neither yourself or K have posted the analyses you claimed would contain all the answers about Western Bio GH.

Hmm well how about posting those analyses instead of enclosing them in some PM shrine where few can view "the truth"!

You come onto this forum questioning the authenticity of my data but a year later still have NOT completed you "truth" crusade, damn hypocrite!

Thank you!

mands

 

[mands]

That is the point. I don't know where you're getting those figures but retail profit margins are nowhere near that high. GH is expensive to buy because it is expensive to produce, period. No matter how you try to parse it, the retail price is high because the wholesale price is high, and, despite Chinese claims to the contrary, there is simply no way to get around that high manufacturing cost.



They are not getting pharm grade GH "straight from the manufacture." They are getting GH that has either been stolen or already subsidized buy insurance companies or government, from the black market. The pricing of black market GH is irrelevant. It cannot be extrapolated to the wholesale cost.



No need for anecdotal evidence.

[NOTE: The first study is based on Canadian GH prices. Pharmaceutical pricing, both wholesale and retail, is heavily regulated by provincial governments, so US wholesale pricing is likely higher still. The prices in the second study are 7-years-old and likely higher today.]


Healthc Policy. 2014 Feb; 9(3): 80–96.
Provincial Disparities of Growth Hormone Coverage for Young Adult Survivors of Paediatric Brain Tumours across Canada
Haroon Hasan, BSc, MPH, Fuchsia Howard, RN, PhD, Steven G. Morgan, PhD, Daniel L. Metzger, MD, Sabrina Gill, MPH, MD, Michelle Johnson, MD, Andrea C. Lo, MD, and Karen Goddard, MBCHB

"To simplify comparisons among the provinces, the medication price established for this regimen was based on the use of Humatrope® 12-mg cartridges (Eli Lilly Canada). In the event that provincial drug formularies did not provide the ingredient cost for this formulation of Humatrope®, a manufacturer wholesale price of CAD$560.04 was used as the ingredient cost, and applicable markup and provincial cost-sharing policies were applied to this price."



Effectiveness of Recombinant Human Growth Hormone (rhGH) in the Treatment of Patients With Cystic Fibrosis
Comparative Effectiveness Reviews, No. 23.
Phung OJ, Coleman CI, Baker EL, et al.
Rockville (MD): Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (US); 2010 Oct.

"The 2008 average wholesale price per milligram of rhGH (somatropin, various manufacturers) ranged from $36 to $65, so it would cost $16,848 to $30,420 annually to treat a 30 kg adolescent receiving a dose of 0.3mg/kg/week.16,17"

No need to argue with you big guy! I know I will never understand. You can post 5 year old, 10 year old, or 20 year old studies.

I know what the reps for Serostim sell the kits to clinics for. You obviously DO NOT. They are NOT stealing if from the manufacture. lol

Some ARE getting pharm grade from China(that is approved) and selling it on the black market.

mands

 

[Dr JIM]

I will add a considerable portion of the current cost of PH GH was the fact it required close to 10 years to uncover the human AA sequence, develop the technology to produce this hormone via E-coli plasmid insertion technology and recover the secreted product in a purified, the latter proved to be another VERY difficult task bc of how fragile GH is.

In fact some in the Biochem industry believed the latter would prove to be an "impossible task" bc of how difficult it was to KNOW which physiological factors effected GHs folding/unfolding patterns. Obviously the latter would be required to devise an fitting in-vitro model which mimics the human environment before any in-vivo comparisons or testing could be conducted.

Because rHGH required some TWENTY YEARS to develop with a combined cost in the BILLIONS of dollars one can be sure any generic GH "plant" will be closed down, if one exists. Just follow the money fellas!

 

[mands]

All prior samples were assayed using a Humatrope standard and that includes the HPLCs of the last four that were posted

Genotrooin was the standard used for the MS results of the last FOUR samples posted.
=====-----------------------=======
Hey Muscles will you ever POST "the truth" on Karl's GH.

You entered Meso some time ago stating your reason for being here was "the truth" but months later neither yourself or K have posted the analyses you claimed would contain all the answers about Western Bio GH.

Hmm well how about posting those analyses instead of enclosing them in some PM shrine where few can view "the truth"!

You come onto this forum questioning the authenticity of my data but a year later still have NOT completed you "truth" crusade, damn hypocrite!

I believe Karl posted it on other boards Jim. Not here. He knows whatever he does here is useless.

mands

 

[mands]

What does all that have to do with the main part of Dr Jim's post, i.e., these bros posted no baseline for comparison and were using untested GH?

Dr Jim posted several good reasons for why the reliability of in vivo GH testing is unreliable, and shouldn't be looked at in isolation from in vitro testing.

Plenty of base line labs posted CBS. Grasping now?

mands

 

[Dr JIM]

No need to argue with you big guy! I know I will never understand. You can post 5 year old, 10 year old, or 20 year old studies.

I know what the reps for Serostim sell the kits to clinics for. You obviously DO NOT. They are NOT stealing if from the manufacture. lol

Some ARE getting pharm grade from China(that is approved) and selling it on the black market.

mands

I don't know the particulars of the clinics your referring to BUT most HIV clinics, if not all to varying degrees, are subsidized in a BIG WAY financially by the federal, county or local governments.


And if they are not involved it's bc they needn't be bc the patient has some other form of coverage such as private insurance or MEDICAID. You want to know what MC pays Ph companies for GH, lol it's sickening!

This is no different than those special deals most Health Care Insurance plans receive to from BIG PHARMA, bc of certain preapproved arrangements that an individual "patient" will ever have access to.

Heck I've no doubt GH clinic suppliers have any idea what the REAL cost of those Sero's is, bc those type of deals are made at the upper management level.

 

[muscle96ss]

That is the point. I don't know where you're getting those figures but retail profit margins are nowhere near that high. GH is expensive to buy because it is expensive to produce, period. No matter how you try to parse it, the retail price is high because the wholesale price is high, and, despite Chinese claims to the contrary, there is simply no way to get around that high manufacturing cost.



They are not getting pharm grade GH "straight from the manufacture." They are getting GH that has either been stolen or already subsidized buy insurance companies or government, from the black market. The pricing of black market GH is irrelevant. It cannot be extrapolated to the wholesale cost.



No need for anecdotal evidence.

[NOTE: The first study is based on Canadian GH prices. Pharmaceutical pricing, both wholesale and retail, is heavily regulated by provincial governments, so US wholesale pricing is likely higher still. The prices in the second study are 7-years-old and likely higher today.]


Healthc Policy. 2014 Feb; 9(3): 80–96.
Provincial Disparities of Growth Hormone Coverage for Young Adult Survivors of Paediatric Brain Tumours across Canada
Haroon Hasan, BSc, MPH, Fuchsia Howard, RN, PhD, Steven G. Morgan, PhD, Daniel L. Metzger, MD, Sabrina Gill, MPH, MD, Michelle Johnson, MD, Andrea C. Lo, MD, and Karen Goddard, MBCHB

"To simplify comparisons among the provinces, the medication price established for this regimen was based on the use of Humatrope® 12-mg cartridges (Eli Lilly Canada). In the event that provincial drug formularies did not provide the ingredient cost for this formulation of Humatrope®, a manufacturer wholesale price of CAD$560.04 was used as the ingredient cost, and applicable markup and provincial cost-sharing policies were applied to this price."



Effectiveness of Recombinant Human Growth Hormone (rhGH) in the Treatment of Patients With Cystic Fibrosis
Comparative Effectiveness Reviews, No. 23.
Phung OJ, Coleman CI, Baker EL, et al.
Rockville (MD): Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (US); 2010 Oct.

"The 2008 average wholesale price per milligram of rhGH (somatropin, various manufacturers) ranged from $36 to $65, so it would cost $16,848 to $30,420 annually to treat a 30 kg adolescent receiving a dose of 0.3mg/kg/week.16,17"

You continue to be fucking clueless The wholesale cost has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the cost to manufacture. If you understood how pharmaceuticals were priced you would understand; you obviously are ignorant to that whole process and it would take an entire new thread to explain that to you.

In addition, you are completely ignorant to the Genesciene Jintropin scenario. I don't know your age but I thought you were older and had been around then. You keep ignoring the facts that they were selling REAL LEGIT LICENSED PATENTED GOVERNMENT APPROVED GH for dirt cheap and making huge profits!! How is that possible, you keep dodging that question?

Like I said before, this whole thread is full of misinformation and ignorance. Its the blind leading the blind.

You state that I have an agenda. Here is my agendas, 1.) My goal is to learn more about these products and find the truth about what is really what. I am very passionate and intrigued by GH as you can tell. 2.) I have been doing this lifestyle for over 25 years. When I first started out I had no clue what I was doing and there wasn't a lot of information available as well as the internet did not exist. Lucky for me there were a few knowledgeable people who taught me a lot of things that I am grateful for. I choose to pay them back by helping out others and sharing information. To me, thats the way things should be. We all are a part of different boards, but the boards don't define us. In the end, we are all part of one big community and we need to work together to help each other out. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be how things work here. Hopefully we can make that change.

 

[muscle96ss]

All prior samples were assayed using a Humatrope standard and that includes the HPLCs of the last four that were posted

Genotrooin was the standard used for the MS results of the last FOUR samples posted.
=====-----------------------=======
Hey Muscles will you ever POST "the truth" on Karl's GH.

You entered Meso some time ago stating your reason for being here was "the truth" but months later neither yourself or K have posted the analyses you claimed would contain all the answers about Western Bio GH.

Hmm well how about posting those analyses instead of enclosing them in some PM shrine where few can view "the truth"!

You come onto this forum questioning the authenticity of my data but a year later still have NOT completed you "truth" crusade, damn hypocrite!

Can someone please ask Jim what the concentration was of the Genotropin used? I believe they come in 36iu pens and 1.2ml of water. If you are comparing that to a 10iu vial of GH in 1ml of water then you are comparing apples and oranges. In other words, if I take a 36iu genotropin pen and used it as a standard then the 10iu vials is going to come up way short in comparison. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Dr JIM]

I believe Karl posted it on other boards Jim. Not here. He knows whatever he does here is useless.

mands

Oh I'll agree it's useless if he is trying to pass of "analytical data" like he did last time as being legit, lol!

That was a farce MANDS and I honestly believe you know that.

 

[Dr JIM]

Plenty of base line labs posted CBS. Grasping now?

mands

Come on MANDS your comparing the data obtained from other forums, using different source batches.

Heck based on the clinical features alone there is no doubt in my mind the GH concentration varies considerably from one "batch" to another.

Why even Karl admitted this fact indirectly by informing users with untoward MS signs or symptoms to "wait for the next batch"!

I performed THESE tests with the understanding any data posted would come from those who were USING the GH I was testing.

That's how studies of such limited nature MUST be conducted otherwise one is comparing apples to oranges!

And it's also ONE solid explanation about why comparing in-vitro to in-vivo results is fundamentally flawed .

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

You continue to be fucking clueless The wholesale cost has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the cost to manufacture. If you understood how pharmaceuticals were priced you would understand; you obviously are ignorant to that whole process and it would take an entire new thread to explain that to you.

Of course the wholesale cost has something to do with the cost to manufacture. To suggest otherwise is absurd. Do you think Big Pharma just picks a figure out of thin air to charge for their GH? Of course not! That is ridiculous. The pharmaceutical industry is a competitive business and you can bet your ass every GH maker is selling their product at the lowest price they possibly can while still making a profit. Clueless, you say? Take a long look in the mirror, pal.

In addition, you are completely ignorant to the Genesciene Jintropin scenario. I don't know your age but I thought you were older and had been around then. You keep ignoring the facts that they were selling REAL LEGIT LICENSED PATENTED GOVERNMENT APPROVED GH for dirt cheap and making huge profits!! How is that possible, you keep dodging that question?

No one has asked me anything about Jintropin so how could I ignore it?

If Jintropin were selling "REAL LEGIT LICENSED PATENTED GOVERNMENT APPROVED GH for dirt cheap," they were doing it illegally. And that was proven when the Chinese government caught them. So no conclusions can be drawn about the cost to manufacture GH by looking at the Jintropin example. NONE.

Like I said before, this whole thread is full of misinformation and ignorance. Its the blind leading the blind.

Indeed. The statement below is a prime example.

People that keep insisting that GH is so expensive to manufacture, do not understand the industry. The actual cost of the machinery to initially start a factory is very expensive. But once you have the machinery, the cost is quite inexpensive.

 

[Dr JIM]

Incidentally I'm sure you recall our somewhat lengthy discussion about how one might could differentiate legit rHGH vs a research grade product? For those using the GH I was testing to have IGF assays performed.

This is important for others to also understand even though RG GH has an identical MW, and AA ratio, it's folding patterns are less than reliable, bc the SEQUENCE is not identical

Consequently RG GH may not cling to and activate the hepatic receptors responsible for the generation of IGF. And as one might could imagine if this was to occur the rise in IGF would be considerably less than anticipated.

(Oh and RG GH most certainly causes a near identical rise in GH levels as Ph grade GH does)

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Plenty of base line labs posted CBS. Grasping now?

mands

I'm not the one trying to argue the impossible so I have no reason to grasp at anything.

You dismissed my comment about baseline labs while ignoring the fact that is was in relation to untested GH. That, my friend, is grasping.

 

[Dr JIM]

Thank you!

mands

Your most welcome

 

[muscle96ss]

Come on MANDS your comparing the data obtained from other forums, using different source batches.

Heck based on the clinical features alone there is no doubt in my mind the GH concentration varies considerably from one "batch" to another.

Why even Karl admitted this fact indirectly by informing users with untoward MS signs or symptoms to "wait for the next batch"!

I performed THESE tests with the understanding any data posted would come from those who were USING the GH I was testing.

That's how studies of such limited nature MUST be conducted otherwise one is comparing apples to oranges!

And it's also ONE solid explanation about why comparing in-vitro to in-vivo results is fundamentally flawed .

Perhaps someone should tell Jim to start reading my posts. The grey top vial came from not only the same batch that was being used, but the same kit. And secondly, there is so much data of serum and IGF-1 tests on PM to support the notion that the grey tops DO NOT vary from batch to batch. The notion that the grey tops vary from batch to batch is based on a bias towards pharm GH and with ZERO legit data to support. If there is data, then post away. Of course I don't expect a response as Jim will just deflect things elsewhere; thats what he does best.

I am still waiting as well for the information about the concentration of the genotropin sample. I think that data is necessary. Why people continue to accept these results without question is absurd. Didn't Jim teach you guys to question all these others lab reports people are posting on other boards. Do those rules not apply to his lab tests. Just because they support your bias does that mean you accept them without question.

 

[muscle96ss]

Of course the wholesale cost has something to do with the cost to manufacture. To suggest otherwise is absurd. Do you think Big Pharma just picks a figure out of thin air to charge for their GH? Of course not! That is ridiculous. The pharmaceutical industry is a competitive business and you can bet your ass every GH maker is selling their product at the lowest price they possibly can while still making a profit. Clueless, you say? Take a long look in the mirror, pal.



No one has asked me anything about Jintropin so how could I ignore it?

If Jintropin were selling "REAL LEGIT LICENSED PATENTED GOVERNMENT APPROVED GH for dirt cheap," they were doing it illegally. And that was proven when the Chinese government caught them. So no conclusions can be drawn about the cost to manufacture GH by looking at the Jintropin example. NONE.



Indeed. The statement below is a prime example.

Do you even know what a wholesale cost is? Judging from your post I would say no!! You obviously have no clue how pharmaceuticals are priced. Next time you go to your pharmacy ask your pharmacist what the cost without insurance is on several brand name drugs as well as generics. Trust me, you will probably shit in your pants. To suggest that the pharmaceutical industry is selling their products at the lowest possible price while making a profit order to be competitive is probably one of the most ludicrous and false statements in this entire thread. While we rarely agree on things; I have always thought of you as one of the more intelligent people around here. If you honestly believe what you wrote, then I suggest you do some research as your comments show your knowledge is lacking in that area.

Secondly, you negate my Jintropin cost example because it was illegal?? So because the owners decided to sell to people in the US and the chinese government changed their mind about overlooking it and allowing it because of political pressure; that somehow changes the cost of manufacturing?? Please explain as that logic makes no sense whatsoever. Whether they were exporting it illegally or not, the product they were selling in China was the EXACT same at the product they were exporting and the cost to manufacture the product was the EXACT same. Why are these concepts so hard for you to understand? Perhaps you have an agenda or vested interested in pharmaceutical GH. Why else would you suddenly lose all intelligence, logic, and reasoning ability?

 

[mands]

I'm not the one trying to argue the impossible so I have no reason to grasp at anything.

You dismissed my comment about baseline labs while ignoring the fact that is was in relation to untested GH. That, my friend, is grasping.

I can't even answer this CBS!! You are full of shit and don't have a clue what going on here.

You post with half the information.

mands

 

[Dr JIM]

I believe Karl posted it on other boards Jim. Not here.
mands

Well admittedly you may have me there bc I only rarely venture
away from Meso, primarily bc of the overwhelming tendency for other PED forums to censor free, AKA critical, speech.

 

[grey]

Not sure how many folks read the thread beyond the folks participating, but no matter the ground truth, I found it interesting and it prompted me to do a bunch o research I wouldn't have otherwise done.

Thanks again (from me at least) to @mands and @Dr JIM for posting these tests.