Refillable injector pen

[TTK]

I'm also very keen to get stuck into this problem when I get home. But that won't be for almost two months.

First thing I want to do is lay eyes on my original order of cartridges and triple check their indicators.

There's plenty of others who've purchased these. What are your sterile indicators showing?

As for DIY sterilization I was thinking the same methods as for regular vials. An instant pot would do it. What's going to happen to the plunger under pressure? Only one way to find out for sure.

 

[Beachgoer725]

I'm also very keen to get stuck into this problem when I get home. But that won't be for almost two months.

First thing I want to do is lay eyes on my original order of cartridges and triple check their indicators.

There's plenty of others who've purchased these. What are your sterile indicators showing?

As for DIY sterilization I was thinking the same methods as for regular vials. An instant pot would do it. What's going to happen to the plunger under pressure? Only one way to find out for sure.

In Europe for another 8 days myself!

 

[Vyiata]

I’ve done some digging myself here and found this explanation for difference between steam and prevac sterilisation: Pre-vacuum autoclaves vs gravity autoclaves

The not vacuum types, so I guess all DYI included, are not suited for wrapped material. Only the pre-vac is, as it sucks the air out first, before blowing hot steam in and penetrating the full object including what inside the wrapper.

Gravity autoclaves (also known as “gravity displacement autoclaves”) are the most common types of steam sterilizers available on the market. While they are less sophisticated than vacuum autoclaves, that doesn’t mean they are not a viable solution for certain medical facilities. They are used to treat smaller, more “basic” loads such as:

• Flat surgical tools and lab utensils made of stainless steel
• Polypropylene Pyrex® or Type I borosilicate glassware
• Medical (red bag) waste
• Unwrapped medical items

“Pre-vac” steam sterilizers like Celitron’s Azteca A or Azteca AC series use a powerful vacuum pump to dynamically remove all the air within their chamber. This allows the steam to penetrate the load inside almost immediately.

This enables vacuum autoclaves to treat materials such as:

• Wrapped goods, surgical packs (which can trap air inside)
• Pipette tips and other high-density polyethylene products, such as syringes
• Cages with animal beddings at veterinary clinics
• Media solutions in containers, such as tissue culture flasks with loose caps for a vacuum autoclave cycle

 

[Bugsy123]

Yea just noticed mine aren’t sterilized. Shocked I missed this since I used to be a sterile tech at a hospital

 

[29trt]

Mother fucker...just received the vials from Ali ...and they are not sterilized
it seems there is no way to sterilize them without a $$$ autoclave

Now where do we get some ethylene oxide ) would be great for brewing as well apart from the part that its flammable ... details

 

[Rido]

exterior of the vial doesnt need to be sterile. the inside of the vial needs to be.

Even if the bag itself doesnt specify if its sterile or not doesnt that the inside of the vial isn't sterile

 

[edjohn88]

I tried the 180C for half an hour in the oven and the plunger came loose (rubber doesn’t hold up).

I guess just don’t plan to set up one of these pens and keep it around for long. Should be fine for anything you're burning through right?

 

[Rido]

exterior of the vial doesnt need to be sterile. the inside of the vial needs to be.

Even if the bag itself doesnt specify if its sterile or not doesnt that the inside of the vial isn't sterile

Sorry, if doesn't mean the size of the vial isn't sterile.


Think of it when you order sterile vials on Amazon. How do you know the inside is?

 

[29trt]

exterior of the vial doesnt need to be sterile. the inside of the vial needs to be.

Even if the bag itself doesnt specify if its sterile or not doesnt that the inside of the vial isn't sterile

Yeah true the outside is clearly not sterile but the fact that there is no mention of the inside being sterile how do you assume that it is?
In any other circumstance when something is not mentioned on a label we assume that its not going to be present in the product... why do the opposite now and just assume it is sterile inside ?

The same reason I don't buy "sterile" vials on Ali... even if they are sterilized I don-t know what crap was left behind in the manufacturing process and not washed properly...

I stand corrected if anyone has information about what is the actual use of these vials ? I mean who would buy them in an industrial setting ?because if they are meant to be bought by end users I can see scumbag sellers not giving a fuk if the vials are sterile or not...but if meant for some pharma customer then they should be up to snuff ...

 

[Rido]

The same reason I don't buy "sterile" vials on Ali... even if they are sterilized I don-t know what crap was left behind in the manufacturing process and not washed properly...

No offense, then why even buy it in the first place? its the same concept..

 

[edjohn88]

I always say if you can't risk consuming a little impurities, you'll never have an immune system. Also why I drink [at least some] tap water in every country I'm in... at 40 and counting

 

[29trt]

No offense, then why even buy it in the first place? its the same concept..

Ok I was not clear, I meant I am not buying the normal 10ml brewing vials that i do not thrust they are clean...
the 3ml ones I bounght under the assumption they were indeed sterile pharm grade taking into account the packaging and the way they were presented initially on this thread

And I can sterilse the 10ml vials with dry heat I cannot do the same with the 3ml ones.

maybe it's time to invest in an autoclave

 

[TTK]

So, a couple of things I've been thinking over.

My understanding of the goal of sterilization is to kill any pathogens that might be present. My understanding is that the killing of pathogens is a game of time and temperature, with pressure being a multiplier of both.

So even if these vials remain sealed, surely it is possible to sterilise them via prolonged time and temperature. So long as the internals reach the point of pasteurization then we could consider them sterile.

Clean is another matter. If we want to be certain they are clean of contaminants then they're going to need to be opened.

@Bugsy123 you were a sterilization tech, can you weigh in on this?

I'm adamant that the vials I received initially indicated they had been steam sterilized, frustratingly I can't prove this to myself for many weeks. But my recollection is of the steam sterile indicators showing dark brown and not the clearly pink we see on the latest batches. I also recall the packaging being wrinkled in a manner that would indicate they had been through some kind of process. This was enough to reassure me when this topic entered my head months ago.

Now for what it's worth between my partner and I we have been through nearly 30 of these and suffered no ill effects, that's over 300 injections. But this proves and amounts to nothing.

I've purchase these vials from two different suppliers. I'll email them both and see if I get a response.

Edit: I got a response back:

无菌

Which is about what I expected...

 

[TTK]

Got some info back from another supplier. They're saying that these vials are autoclaved before they go into the pouch.

 

[Bugsy123]

So, a couple of things I've been thinking over.

My understanding of the goal of sterilization is to kill any pathogens that might be present. My understanding is that the killing of pathogens is a game of time and temperature, with pressure being a multiplier of both.

So even if these vials remain sealed, surely it is possible to sterilise them via prolonged time and temperature. So long as the internals reach the point of pasteurization then we could consider them sterile.

Clean is another matter. If we want to be certain they are clean of contaminants then they're going to need to be opened.

@Bugsy123 you were a sterilization tech, can you weigh in on this?

I'm adamant that the vials I received initially indicated they had been steam sterilized, frustratingly I can't prove this to myself for many weeks. But my recollection is of the steam sterile indicators showing dark brown and not the clearly pink we see on the latest batches. I also recall the packaging being wrinkled in a manner that would indicate they had been through some kind of process. This was enough to reassure me when this topic entered my head months ago.

Now for what it's worth between my partner and I we have been through nearly 30 of these and suffered no ill effects, that's over 300 injections. But this proves and amounts to nothing.

I've purchase these vials from two different suppliers. I'll email them both and see if I get a response.

Edit: I got a response back:

无菌

Which is about what I expected...

That’s correct. We were taught back in the day that you can “clean without sterilizing but can’t sterilize without being cleaned”. Therefor in order to be 100% certain you’d have to remove the pouch, clean the vials yourself (alcohol works great for this) and then re-pouch and autoclave. You do not want to use something like an instapot for this. You’ll get what we called “wet packs” and therefore wouldn’t know if the vials are truly sterile. As for them repackaging them after they autoclaved, that just makes no sense to me. These Chinese suppliers would do anything to save a buck, so they would just use the pouches they shipped them in to sterilize. Hope I clarified a few things. Lucky for me I do indeed have a little autoclave at home. A little souvenir from my time as a sterile tech. So I’ll be throwing them right in. Hopefully the vial I used for my HGH had no pathogens though as I already blew through it

 

[TTK]

That’s correct. We were taught back in the day that you can “clean without sterilizing but can’t sterilize without being cleaned”. Therefor in order to be 100% certain you’d have to remove the pouch, clean the vials yourself (alcohol works great for this) and then re-pouch and autoclave. You do not want to use something like an instapot for this. You’ll get what we called “wet packs” and therefore wouldn’t know if the vials are truly sterile. As for them repackaging them after they autoclaved, that just makes no sense to me. These Chinese suppliers would do anything to save a buck, so they would just use the pouches they shipped them in to sterilize. Hope I clarified a few things. Lucky for me I do indeed have a little autoclave at home. A little souvenir from my time as a sterile tech. So I’ll be throwing them right in. Hopefully the vial I used for my HGH had no pathogens though as I already blew through it

If I understand correctly then if these vials are in fact clean (no chemical/physical contaminants), but only require sterilization (destruction of pathogens). Then it could be done with dry heat alone and not require the opening of the vials, or am I missing a step?

I agree that many Chinese suppliers will cut corners, that's obvious, but I'm thinking that these vials are produced in such volumes and presumably are only applicable to the medical industry and bulk sterilization of the product as part of the manufacturing is likely default and an expectation. Presumably this leaves the interior of the vials ready for use. They (the seller) then package in these sterilization bags for the sake of convenience, because what else are you going to package them in?

For those reasons I'm leaning towards being comfortable using these regardless of the package indicator. I can't imagine a manufacturing process that would pump these out on a production line that doesn't end with the product being sterilized. I know this relies on some faith and assumptions are being made. But as an individual I am leaning towards accepting this risk. Just as I accept other forms of risk in this game.

None the less, this is a very important conversation to be having around this 'tek'.

We had one person here report purchasing these same vials, but from Walmart and they did not come in any form of packaging.

Edit: @Beachgoer725 can you link to the purchase page for the Walmart vials?

 

[Bugsy123]

If I understand correctly then if these vials are in fact clean (no chemical/physical contaminants), but only require sterilization (destruction of pathogens). Then it could be done with dry heat alone and not require the opening of the vials, or am I missing a step?

I agree that many Chinese suppliers will cut corners, that's obvious, but I'm thinking that these vials are produced in such volumes and presumably are only applicable to the medical industry and bulk sterilization of the product as part of the manufacturing is likely default and an expectation. Presumably this leaves the interior of the vials ready for use. They (the seller) then package in these sterilization bags for the sake of convenience, because what else are you going to package them in?

For those reasons I'm leaning towards being comfortable using these regardless of the package indicator. I can't imagine a manufacturing process that would pump these out on a production line that doesn't end with the product being sterilized. I know this relies on some faith and assumptions are being made. But as an individual I am leaning towards accepting this risk. Just as I accept other forms of risk in this game.

None the less, this is a very important conversation to be having around this 'tek'.

We had one person here report purchasing these same vials, but from Walmart and they did not come in any form of packaging.

Edit: @Beachgoer725 can you link to the purchase page for the Walmart vials?

The problem with dry heat is the rubber stoppers. You’ll have to cook those little vials at about 340F for an hour to achieve sterilization. I don’t know what temps the stoppers are rated at. I agree they produce these in bulk and are probably sanitary but why would they sterilize and then package them in these packets rather than bunch them together in packs or 5,10, 15 etc in little boxes or plastic wrap. It would seem they would do that instead. I’m not really sure as to why they come pre packaged in these pockets other than 1. They actually sterilized them and the indicators are just off, or 2. They ship them for us to sterilize. Nonetheless I’ve been pinning with a vial I consider non sterile and I’m still here lol

 

[TTK]

The problem with dry heat is the rubber stoppers. You’ll have to cook those little vials at about 340F for an hour to achieve sterilization. I don’t know what temps the stoppers are rated at. I agree they produce these in bulk and are probably sanitary but why would they sterilize and then package them in these packets rather than bunch them together in packs or 5,10, 15 etc in little boxes or plastic wrap. It would seem they would do that instead. I’m not really sure as to why they come pre packaged in these pockets other than 1. They actually sterilized them and the indicators are just off, or 2. They ship them for us to sterilize. Nonetheless I’ve been pinning with a vial I consider non sterile and I’m still here lol

I'm wondering if a lower temperature for a longer time period can be used. More research is required.

I'm thinking the reason they've come this way is that they probably come off the production line packaged in boxes of 1000 or more at minimum. This then goes to the reseller who's left with the decision of how to repackage for resale. I wish I could confirm this.

I've been looking at some analytical labs in my area. I might take a few vials to them and have them swab and culture the interior when I'm back in country.

 

[xlincharge]

Yeah true the outside is clearly not sterile but the fact that there is no mention of the inside being sterile how do you assume that it is?
In any other circumstance when something is not mentioned on a label we assume that its not going to be present in the product... why do the opposite now and just assume it is sterile inside ?

The same reason I don't buy "sterile" vials on Ali... even if they are sterilized I don-t know what crap was left behind in the manufacturing process and not washed properly...

I stand corrected if anyone has information about what is the actual use of these vials ? I mean who would buy them in an industrial setting ?because if they are meant to be bought by end users I can see scumbag sellers not giving a fuk if the vials are sterile or not...but if meant for some pharma customer then they should be up to snuff ...

Are you talking about empty sterile vials? If so and in the US, just go to GPZ and get them. Super easy and fast.

 

[edjohn88]

Not vials… cartridges like this