Secret Sources, the SCOC and the Steroid Underground

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

I don't know whether secret sourcing is prevalent on Meso at the moment or not but what I do know is the perception members have for what the underground forum is supposed to be has slowly changed for the worse. For all intents and purposes, it's now viewed by too many as a source forum rather than a forum to discuss sources.

I think most of the blame for both of these problems can be placed on the SCOC for a couple of reasons.

First, the trend over the last year or so has been for members, particularly the newer ones, to use Meso primarily as a source forum because that is how they perceive it. We may tell new members that Meso isn't a source forum; that its purpose is to give them an uncensored forum where they can discuss sources. But when they see WKMs referring new sources to the SCOC, what are they to think? Why have a SCOC if Meso isn't a source forum? Due to the illegal nature of AAS and the need for discretion, when inexperienced members are told Meso isn't a source forum and then see sources being asked to comply with the SCOC, I suspect what they actually hear is "Meso isn't a source forum, wink, wink." When these junior members become senior members, the cycle will continue.

Secondly, rather than being used as a tool to vet sources, the SCOC is forcing sources into selling secretly. There's no question about that and we've already seen evidence that this is happening.

IMO, it's time to abandon the SCOC. It has failed to serve its purpose and it's causing more harm than good.

Regarding the perception that this is a source forum, how do we change it? I've seen some calling to rid Meso of all sources. Personally, I don't think we need to go that far. I don't have an issue with members having direct access to *established* sources on Meso - and by established I mean sources that have been around longer than a couple of years. Being established isn't a guarantee of quality as we've seen recently, but the odds of getting scammed outright are far lower.

What I think needs to change is the idea that these start-up bathtub brewers who have no experience and are only here because they managed to score a bag of powder and now think they're going to be the next drug kingpin deserve a shot. They don't deserve a shot. And that includes any members that might have started brewing and "secretly" selling. Start-ups are the kind of source the SCOC was designed to vet, the kind most likely to sell bunk gear, and the kind most likely to take the money and run. They have no business being here. They are using/abusing Meso's underground because it's free. With nothing invested, they have nothing to lose. And with nothing to lose, there's nothing to stop them from running off with your money.

What's even worse than the start-ups are the members (who should know better) that say these clowns should be given a chance because "someone has to try them." Well, no. No one has to try them. And no one should try them. Why members would even consider using high-risk start-up sources is beyond me. It's not just a question of being scammed, you're putting your health in jeopardy. And for what? A source who will be long gone in less than 6 months?

As far as I'm concerned, the SCOC is redundant. It was designed to give *non-viable* sources a chance they neither deserve, nor should get. It serves no purpose other than creating the impression that Meso is a source forum. In short, it's dragging the underground down.

The underground is an invaluable resource for members when used as intended. Allowing these clowns here is going to destroy it. It's time for members to stop fucking around and start thinking about the greater good. It's not about you finding a source. It was never about that.

Regards

CBS

 

[dredd09]

The whole secrecy thing is a good way to get people hurt, i would agree. Just lurking here , i see that the right way is being obfuscated by those desperate to score and those desperate to make a dollar off of vials of bs. Is the future filled with nothing but scammers and skeezers? Communities should help each other out. Otherwise why be involved?

 

[bigtymer0485]

Great post @CensoredBoardsSuck

 

[bambam333]

keep the scumbags close and out in the open instead of lurkin in the bushes is the best way

 

[weighted chinup]

Excellent post, CBS.

There is certainly a belief among part of the member base here at Meso that thinks amateur sources who come here have something better to offer than all the other sources out there when it comes to the quality of their products.

They do not. They have nothing to offer that isn't being done by other sources. From a harm reduction perspective, using any of these amateur new sources is an extremely bad idea.

They aren't better in terms of product quality, and they are a far riskier purchase imo. If our goal is to help users navigate the steroid underground and make decisions that are more conducive to reducing risks, then we should flat out discourage the use of these amateur, new unestablished sources.

I agree with your point on guys who feel the need to see if these sources are any good by sampling products. It's not necessary, even if the product does favorably on whatever testing members have available, it doesn't prove anything substantial in the sources favor, and product quality is only one aspect of a sources service. There are many other issues as well, and I think its safe to say that amateur / new sources will eventually fall short in one of these other areas simply due to inexperience.

Also, WKM's who are secretly sourcing / private sources and the guys who support and help these individuals to stay in the shadows are doing a great disservice to the editorial integrity of the underground subforum.

 

[FuriousWO]

Start-ups are the kind of source the SCOC was designed to vet, the kind most likely to sell bunk gear, and the kind most likely to take the money and run. They have no business being here. They are using/abusing Meso's underground because it's free. With nothing invested, they have nothing to lose. And with nothing to lose, there's nothing to stop them from running off with your money.

CBS I think this is the truest of all statements said around here. I was thinking today that we should charge sources like other boards but leave in tact the uncensored freedom of speech. I bet a whole lot less sources would come through.

Granted this would take some integrity on the part of the money collector to not get greedy, but that's closely monitored if posts start disappearing and members banned.

Either that or get rid of sources altogether

 

[bickel29]

Wasn't the SCOC designed with the following, guiding thoughts?

A) sources are gonna source here because it's an open, uncensored forum so you can not stop them

And thus,

B) since you can not stop them, you might as well enact a set of rules that are expected to be followed, that increase the odds that the source has a clue

I am not defending the SCOC. In fact, I have never really referenced it here in the UG because I personally have always thought it had one major flaw - that it was not enforceable! Because this forum is uncensored, Millard was never going to allow any enforcement beyond members pressuring the source to comply. Therefore, I have always believed that it was good in theory, but lacking for that reason.

But CBS, maybe I misunderstood the reason for the SCOC, but I never thought it was meant to encourage sourcing - rather, a reaction to the fact that sourcing was gonna happen anyways, so it's creators were trying to challenge the sources to show some signs of knowing what they were doing.

 

[dredd09]

I do think sources should have another registration to seperate them from members. Maybe not being able to reveal email or site until approved hoops have been jumped through would help. Until then it should note the unproven, untested status.

 

[weighted chinup]

But CBS, maybe I misunderstood the reason for the SCOC, but I never thought it was meant to encourage sourcing - rather, a reaction to the fact that sourcing was gonna happen, so it's creators were trying to challenge the sources to show some signs of knowing what they were doing.

It wasn't meant to encourage sourcing, you are correct.

However, encouraging amateur sources and giving them a pathway to starting up their business is exactly what has happened. Unintentional consequence.

Instead of giving amateur sources a set of guidelines to help them, we should flat out discourage the use of these sources. The correct response to the inevitable sourcing should be to discourage members from ever touching these sources, not giving what I think is a false sense of credibility because of their ability to follow through our community guidelines or do an amicable job answering questions.

Even if they do all that successfully, these sources are still a huge risk imo. Members should avoid these sources.

 

[FuriousWO]

Then why have the underground if we are going to discourage the use of sources there? Just close it up.
I had never really thought too much about it but the board stance that we aren't a source board and the SCOC, it's like telling my kids I don't condone or allow underage drinking in my house but if your going to do it follow these rules. Completely mixed signals

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Wasn't the SCOC designed with the following, guiding thoughts?

A) sources are gonna source here because it's an open, uncensored forum so you can not stop them

And thus,

B) since you can not stop them, you might as well enact a set of rules that are expected to be followed, that increase the odds that the source has a clue

I am not defending the SCOC. In fact, I have never really referenced it here in the UG because I personally have always thought it had one major flaw - that it was not enforceable! Because this forum is uncensored, Millard was never going to allow any enforcement beyond members pressuring the source to comply. Therefore, I have always believed that it was good in theory, but lacking for that reason.

But CBS, maybe I misunderstood the reason for the SCOC, but I never thought it was meant to encourage sourcing - rather, a reaction to the fact that sourcing was gonna happen anyways, so it's creators were trying to challenge the sources to show some signs of knowing what they were doing.

No, you're absolutely right, Bickel. It was never intended to encourage sourcing, but that has been the result. I'm not saying the SCOC is directly responsible but it definitely led to a (negative) change on Meso. Members put too much faith in the SCOC and started seriously considering sources they would have never considered before. Sources noticed and started coming in droves. The result is the mess you see in the underground today.

My point is that we are worse off now than before the SCOC. It was designed to vet new sources without references and money - sources that came to Meso as a last resort because they had nowhere else to go.

The SCOC was a noble idea, but looking back, it was destined to fail because the sources to which it applied were not viable, and as you mentioned, it's not enforceable.

 

[FuriousWO]

Doesn't this all come back to the same thing we hear over and over? "Meso isn't a source board..."
That's like saying you dont have a drinking problem, but being an alcoholic
I don't care what anyone says the definition of the word "not" is clear

Not - used to express negation, denial, refusal, or prohibition

How is Meso not a source board when sources are all over it SELLING gear? Is it a semantics thing because the entire forum is not dedicated to sources selling gear? I mean really WTF, accept what the underground is... It's a fucking source board.

I'll end my rant, but having a clear definition of what it really IS will help define the problem and solution.

 

[weighted chinup]

Doesn't this all come back to the same thing we hear over and over? "Meso isn't a source board..."
That's like saying you dont have a drinking problem, but being an alcoholic
I don't care what anyone says the definition of the word "not" is clear

Not - used to express negation, denial, refusal, or prohibition

How is Meso not a source board when sources are all over it SELLING gear? Is it a semantics thing because the entire forum is not dedicated to sources selling gear? I mean really WTF, accept what the underground is... It's a fucking source board.

I'll end my rant, but having a clear definition of what it really IS will help define the problem and solution.

The undergrounds main purpose is harm reduction and safely navigating the steroid underground, not a place to find gear for purchase imo.

It's also uncensored since allowing uncensored dialogue is the most efficient way to find facts. But obviously on an uncensored board any source can try and set up shop and try and sell gear, and since the site staff don't want to determine what you and I get to read, it's left up to us to determine if sources setting up shop is okay.

I would consider a source board a forum that is little more than a giant billboard / topsite for gear sellers, with sponsors receiving endorsements from the site staff. Obviously Meso is nothing like that.

 

[FuriousWO]

Is that the definition and I'm missing the point? I'll concede if so.
I just seems we're trying to cure the problem by treating the symptoms not the disease. If we are going to let sources come on here and peddle gear that's cool, keep the uncensored part but make them pay. That payment only allows them to start a sourcing thread, nothing more. If they last 10 years or 10 minutes doesn't matter. That's going to weed out a lot of the reddit only sources right away. It will also discourage sources from coming here at all. I mean why pay meso if they can pay the same on eroids and be buying a rating. Unless a source is really intent on scamming on MESO why would you pay up front for us to publicly state when there are problems?

 

[FuriousWO]

Also look at the front page... Getm burned us but they are still advertising on the front page. Isn't that a type of glowing recommendation? Source pays and get advertising spot. Sure seems it to me.

(Sorry @Millard Baker just my opinion)

 

[pumpingiron22]

I think alot of people have forgotten that even though we are not censored. There are some rules here.
even i have not read this in a long time and alot of us have forgotten our way. I see no where in here where a source has the right to post there product here or anything of that nature. Its for members to discuss sources. That is the reason cbs has said the scoc promotes sourcing. We all need to take a look at meso and what it is or will become. Do we really want LE here like this is the new silk road, I love this place to much for it to be gone. so I think its time to kick all the sources out of the underground.




The "Steroid Underground" forum is intended for members only to share good and bad experiences ordering anabolic steroids on the internet black market, to provide steroid source reviews, to share links and ask questions about third party websites selling steroids, to talk about underground labs (UGLs) and to report steroid scammers.

You have my promise that no one will be protected from the truth.

Opinions and experiences - good and bad - regarding steroid sources and underground labs (UGLs) will not be censored at all.

Discussion is limited only to performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs).

Members will not be banned for anything that is said about sources. This rule applies only to this sub-forum.

The forum will be largely uncensored and unmoderated.

Rules are subject to change.

(1) Solicitations by spammers will be prohibited. (People who register and post the same spam message on multiple threads will be banned.) This includes solicitations via PM.

(2) All links to third-party websites must be coded. Active "clickable" hyperlinks will also be prohibited. Posts that violate rule #2 are subject to deletion.

For example:
Code:
https://thinksteroids.com/
Image Removed

(3) Absolutely no unauthorized posting of identifying information about any MESO-Rx member e.g. no phone numbers, no names, no addresses, etc.

(4) Engaging in conduct that is illegal or tortious is prohibited.

(5) Engaging in deceptive activities, including misrepresentation of affiliation, impersonation, and fraud is prohibited.

(6) Members must disclose any affiliation with vendors discussed in the "Steroid Underground" for which they receive, or expect to receive, compensation.

(7) Threats of physical violence are prohibited.

The possession and/or distribution of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) is illegal in the United States without a valid medical prescription. It is illegal in many other countries as well. Do not buy and/or sell anabolic steroids if it is illegal in your jurisdiction.

The legality of using such drugs varies from country to country. The use and/or importation of such drugs into your country or locality may or may not be disallowed or illegal. We recommend that you contact your local FDA and/or customs office regarding the regulations and restrictions of your country.

MESO-Rx assumes no responsibility or liability for violation (or consequences thereof) of the respective rules and regulations in your particular jurisdiction. Any attempt to circumvent your country's importation laws is strongly discouraged. Any attempt to do so is done at your sole risk and as such under no circumstances is MESO-Rx liable for any damages, financial, legal or otherwise that result from such actions.

 

[weighted chinup]

Also look at the front page... Getm burned us but they are still advertising on the front page. Isn't that a type of glowing recommendation? Source pays and get advertising spot. Sure seems it to me.

There is a world of difference between selling ad space and an endorsement my friend.

GETM might be paying to have their picture up, but they will never be able to buy an endorsement from the site staff. This makes Meso completely unique from every other AAS board out there.

OTOH, the advertisement helps keep the site up and everything that comes with it, presumably that includes server fees, front page content, harm reduction projects, etc.

If a source wants to pay to have a picture that isn't an active hyperlink on a forum where everyone knows their products are garbage and can determine that with some quick research, I honestly can't see the huge issue. As long as they aren't receiving protection or an endorsement, let them send as much money as they want imo.

I've stated before that I think a crowd funded / donation driven model is the ideal way to fund this site. It takes time though, but Meso is still miles ahead of every other AAS board / website when it comes to editorial ethics.

 

[bickel29]

Okay, consider the following...

This is not a source board.

This is not a source board.

Now, take a look at the bottom of this page (if you're on your phone) and you'll see not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, but 6 SOURCES advertising everything from gear to peptides to ancilleries - including GetM, who screwed a whole lot of members over as they infamously flamed out here last summer.

So those SOURCES are allowed to promote their gear here, because they paid to do so, yet we are going to tell Nophat, Home brewer Bernie, and Leroy down at the end of the block that they are not allowed to peddle their stuff here because.... well, because.... because they haven't paid for a banner to do so?

So are we not indirectly telling members that we'll prevent them from seeing all of their options, they can only see the ones that have paid to be seen by the members?

I am failing to see how that would not be hypocritical of all of us (me included) to refuse to allow sourcing here - oh, unless you pay to do so.

I trust Nophat more than any of those SOURCES I see on those banners.

 

[bickel29]

There is a world of difference between selling ad space and an endorsement my friend.

GETM might be paying to have their picture up, but they will never be able to buy an endorsement from the site staff. This makes Meso completely unique from every other AAS board out there.

Chinup - are you saying that you do not believe that ANY visitors to this site order from the sources sponsoring here? You don't think that even one new member has pursued GetM for gear after seeing that banner?

What if your local grocery store sold ad space on the outside of the store for a bread company that was selling contaminated bread? And when you asked the store manager why he would allow them to promote their dirty bread, he said the ad money was helping keep the lights on, so you had somewhere to shop?

I am not calling you out chinup - just wondering how we are supposed to justify that? Because I have had new members here ask me about the sources advertising here - most were confused when I tried to explain it as "just advertising revenue to keep Meso going". They, for the most part, assumed those sources to be g2g.

 

[pumpingiron22]

Maybe we can have porn advertisement instead? like alot of the torrent sites. Those site are free as well but pay the bills with porn.