Secret Sources, the SCOC and the Steroid Underground

[bickel29]

Maybe we can have porn advertisement instead? like alot of the torrent sites. Those site are free as well but pay the bills with porn.

Ironically, some fellas here probably CAN NOT pay their bills BECAUSE of porn!

 

[weighted chinup]

Chinup - are you saying that you do not believe that ANY visitors to this site order from the sources sponsoring here? You don't think that even one new member has pursued GetM for gear after seeing that banner?

What if your local grocery store sold ad space on the outside of the store for a bread company that was selling contaminated bread? And when you asked the store manager why he would allow them to promote their dirty bread, he said the ad money was helping keep the lights on, so you had somewhere to shop?

I am not calling you out chinup - just wondering how we are supposed to justify that? Because I have had new members here ask me about the sources advertising here - most were confused when I tried to explain it as "just advertising revenue to keep Meso going". They, for the most part, assumed those sources to be g2g.

I can justify that easily.

The only thing those banners indicate is that the advertisers support Meso's goals of free speech and harm reduction. I clicked on each one of those banners and I am not any closer to being able to purchase a single vial of gear. The GETM ad is just a picture that isn't even an active hyperlink.

If you are suggesting that the GETM banner should be dropped because of what went on during summer - that essentially goes against the position the administration takes. Administration is impartial when it comes to matters regarding sources, if Millard dropped a sponsor because of accusations he is no longer impartial. In that scenario he would be taking a position and enforcing it on all of us, determining what you and I get to see and read.

That position is to be avoided at all times.

Lets be realistic though - do you really think there are a lot of legitimate advertisers who want to have their ad on an AAS board who not only support Meso's goals of free speech but also understand that they won't be getting protection for their money? I don't think there are a whole lot of advertisers like that.

I like Meso, not just because the quality of information mops the floor with other AAS boards, but because I have a lot of respect for the integrity and impartiality of the administration here. A crowd funded / donation driven model would solve some of the issues you bring up, but I'm sure you can appreciate that transitioning to such a model would take time.

It might not even be viable. What then? I'd rather see a small picture of some cut rate labs gear than a 404 page...

 

[bickel29]

I can justify that easily.

The only thing those banners indicate is that the advertisers support Meso's goals of free speech and harm reduction. I clicked on each one of those banners and I am not any closer to being able to purchase a single vial of gear. The GETM ad is just a picture that isn't even an active hyperlink.

If you are suggesting that the GETM banner should be dropped because of what went on during summer - that essentially goes against the position the administration takes. Administration is impartial when it comes to matters regarding sources, if Millard dropped a sponsor because of accusations he is no longer impartial. In that scenario he would be taking a position and enforcing it on all of us, determining what you and I get to see and read.

That position is to be avoided at all times.

Lets be realistic though - do you really think there are a lot of legitimate advertisers who want to have their ad on an AAS board who not only support Meso's goals of free speech but also understand that they won't be getting protection for their money? I don't think there are a whole lot of advertisers like that.

I like Meso, not just because the quality of information mops the floor with other AAS boards, but because I have a lot of respect for the integrity and impartiality of the administration here. A crowd funded / donation driven model would solve some of the issues you bring up, but I'm sure you can appreciate that transitioning to such a model would take time.

It might not even be viable. What then? I'd rather see a small picture of some cut rate labs gear than a 404 page...

Well Chinup, I agree with some of what you are saying. I certainly hope my comments are not coming off as condemnation of Millard, because I do truly respect the man and appreciate this forum.

I am simply trying to explain why I do not find it in the best interest of free speech, nor consistent with our non-censorship position, to be banning sources from posting here, if we are allowing paid banners for sources.

 

[Millard]

I don't know whether secret sourcing is prevalent on Meso at the moment or not but what I do know is the perception members have for what the underground forum is supposed to be has slowly changed for the worse. For all intents and purposes, it's now viewed by too many as a source forum rather than a forum to discuss sources.

I think most of the blame for both of these problems can be placed on the SCOC for a couple of reasons.

First, the trend over the last year or so has been for members, particularly the newer ones, to use Meso primarily as a source forum because that is how they perceive it. We may tell new members that Meso isn't a source forum; that its purpose is to give them an uncensored forum where they can discuss sources. But when they see WKMs referring new sources to the SCOC, what are they to think? Why have a SCOC if Meso isn't a source forum? Due to the illegal nature of AAS and the need for discretion, when inexperienced members are told Meso isn't a source forum and then see sources being asked to comply with the SCOC, I suspect what they actually hear is "Meso isn't a source forum, wink, wink." When these junior members become senior members, the cycle will continue.

Secondly, rather than being used as a tool to vet sources, the SCOC is forcing sources into selling secretly. There's no question about that and we've already seen evidence that this is happening.

IMO, it's time to abandon the SCOC. It has failed to serve its purpose and it's causing more harm than good.

Regarding the perception that this is a source forum, how do we change it? I've seen some calling to rid Meso of all sources. Personally, I don't think we need to go that far. I don't have an issue with members having direct access to *established* sources on Meso - and by established I mean sources that have been around longer than a couple of years. Being established isn't a guarantee of quality as we've seen recently, but the odds of getting scammed outright are far lower.

What I think needs to change is the idea that these start-up bathtub brewers who have no experience and are only here because they managed to score a bag of powder and now think they're going to be the next drug kingpin deserve a shot. They don't deserve a shot. And that includes any members that might have started brewing and "secretly" selling. Start-ups are the kind of source the SCOC was designed to vet, the kind most likely to sell bunk gear, and the kind most likely to take the money and run. They have no business being here. They are using/abusing Meso's underground because it's free. With nothing invested, they have nothing to lose. And with nothing to lose, there's nothing to stop them from running off with your money.

What's even worse than the start-ups are the members (who should know better) that say these clowns should be given a chance because "someone has to try them." Well, no. No one has to try them. And no one should try them. Why members would even consider using high-risk start-up sources is beyond me. It's not just a question of being scammed, you're putting your health in jeopardy. And for what? A source who will be long gone in less than 6 months?

As far as I'm concerned, the SCOC is redundant. It was designed to give *non-viable* sources a chance they neither deserve, nor should get. It serves no purpose other than creating the impression that Meso is a source forum. In short, it's dragging the underground down.

The underground is an invaluable resource for members when used as intended. Allowing these clowns here is going to destroy it. It's time for members to stop fucking around and start thinking about the greater good. It's not about you finding a source. It was never about that.

Regards

CBS

Excellent, excellent, excellent insight and recommendations!

 

[Millard]

But CBS, maybe I misunderstood the reason for the SCOC, but I never thought it was meant to encourage sourcing - rather, a reaction to the fact that sourcing was gonna happen anyways, so it's creators were trying to challenge the sources to show some signs of knowing what they were doing.

I've always had mixed feelings about the SCOC. It has some great questions that MEMBERS should consider when making decisions about a source.

Unfortunately, it was explicitly marketed towards SOURCES as a set of "necessary requirements" that must be met before they were allowed to "post list":

SCOC to encompass the necessary requirements to ensure as little scamming as possible

**********DO NOT POST LIST UNTIL THESE REQUIREMENTS HAVE BEEN SATISFIED**********

Ever since, it has been used to "allow" sources, "approve" sources", "vet" sources, "clear" sources to "do business" on MESO.

MESO has never supported this goal and repeatedly rejected any attempt to provide sources with a guideline or path by which they use MESO as a sales platform.

Of course, most members simply ignored this inconvenient fact and continued business as usual and promote the SCOC as the golden ticket for new sources to become a "MESO source".

WTF is a "MESO source"? There is no such thing. Why do so many members persist in trying to nurture and develop "MESO sources"? Just stop it.

 

[Boilermech]

I personally like being able to monitor sources and have something to say about it and make a stand against them. If sources were not here on Meso and we were only able to talk about them and our experiences then what leg do we have to stand on when someone gets floaters or underdosed gear, or a screwed up orders. As long as the sources are on Meso we have been able to resolve several issues because the sources don't want to look bad on Meso. An example is Naps. I realize a lot of people don't like them but I have been approached by a few members that had issues come up with them and I was able to get ahold of Naps support and get the issues resolved simply because they are here on Meso. Same goes for Mike and Spetz issues that I've helped resolve. Why would they give a rats ass what I or anyone says about them if they weren't even on this board.
Sure people that do some research would find our negative reviews but what happens with the guy that got a wrong order. Are we going to still be able to effluence the sources to correct the issue. I don't believe we would be able to.
I just really like helping people that get screwed by sources, and feel with the sources here on Meso we stand a chance of doing just that. This doesn't mean that I agree completely with how sources are aloud to set up shop here. I think some things need to change as well just not sure how.
Just stating my opinion brothers. If we end up eliminating all of the sources on here I'm still ok with that. Whatever everyone and Millard decides to do it is more than fine with me.
Side note: I imagine I'm going to have a lot of reading to do when I get up since I'm working nights, but I'll be back to see where we are trying to go with this.
Have a good day everyone.

 

[manafest]

I might be a new member to this board....CBS you have just typed exactly what I've been thinking since I started viewing this board...well done..!

 

[Millard]

Also look at the front page... Getm burned us but they are still advertising on the front page. Isn't that a type of glowing recommendation? Source pays and get advertising spot. Sure seems it to me.

(Sorry @Millard Baker just my opinion)

I am not calling you out chinup - just wondering how we are supposed to justify that?

Well Chinup, I agree with some of what you are saying. I certainly hope my comments are not coming off as condemnation of Millard, because I do truly respect the man and appreciate this forum.

@FuriousWO and @bickel29 you've asked some legitimate questions. No disrepect taken. Free speech is a great thing.

I've answered versions of this question several times in the past but I don't think I could have responded better than @weighted chinup's posts above with an explanation. I am admittedly glad that some understand but I would never fault anyone for being critical. Thanks!

 

[manafest]

Boilermech....Sorry to say this but you never had ground, never will have ground with any sources on the internet...If they sell here you bet they are selling on other boards...You cant stop bad these days. You can discuss it and if you have a brain smart people will stay clear...Just my outlook...

 

[Boilermech]

Boilermech....Sorry to say this but you never had ground, never will have ground with any sources on the internet...If they sell here you bet they are selling on other boards...You cant stop bad these days. You can discuss it and if you have a brain smart people will stay clear...Just my outlook...

I understand exactly what your saying. And I can't say that I disagree completely. But what I have found is when an issue arises from a customer and the person tries to get it resolved behind the scenes without involving anyone else it is neglected by the source. But when he comes to other people for help and several people start in on the source the issue is usually resolved in one way or another, not always but usually. I have personally seen this happen several times here on Meso brother.

 

[biggerben69]

I can't believe your head hasn't exploded. Biting your tongue all this time. You're venting your frustrations, clearly. You aren't surprised are you? There aren't many that view the lifestyle or culture the way you see things, Millard. I know you are aware of that.

 

[Millard]

If we are going to let sources come on here and peddle gear that's cool, keep the uncensored part but make them pay. That payment only allows them to start a sourcing thread, nothing more. If they last 10 years or 10 minutes doesn't matter. That's going to weed out a lot of the reddit only sources right away. It will also discourage sources from coming here at all.

So are we not indirectly telling members that we'll prevent them from seeing all of their options, they can only see the ones that have paid to be seen by the members?

Making sources pay before they are allowed to post on MESO is contrary to the spirit of free speech. This is a forum discussion about the steroid underground after all. A source's perspective is part of the equation and provides all sides the story.

Thus, making one party pay to exercise their free speech while other parties can do so freely isn't really the best approach.

This doesn't mean that we should allow sources to use MESO as a sales platform. It just means they should be here to answer questions and respond to relevant threads about black market products some of which may be their own. In short, they should be to provide information.

I personally like being able to monitor sources and have something to say about it and make a stand against them.

The more information we can obtain about the steroid underground, the better it is for consumers.

 

[Millard]

I can't believe your head hasn't exploded. Biting your tongue all this time. You're venting your frustrations, clearly. You aren't surprised are you? There aren't many that view the lifestyle or culture the way you see things, Millard. I know you are aware of that.

No, I'm not surprised. I'm aware of the way things are done elsewhere. It doesn't mean I need to be like everyone else or allow this forum to become like every other forum in this "lifestyle or culture".

 

[biggerben69]

No, I'm not surprised. I'm aware of the way things are done elsewhere. It doesn't mean I need to be like everyone else or allow this forum to become like every other forum in this "lifestyle or culture".

What board owners are you talking about. The forums I am aware of are modeled the way the owner intended. You intended to be different than the other boards. Unique. You gave the keys to individuals that are members of those steroid boards. You sound almost insulted?

 

[Millard]

You sound almost insulted?

@biggerben69 not sure what you are talking about. Your statement that I see things differently than most is quite the compliment.

 

[biggerben69]

Even on source boards a large majority of deals go down 1 on 1 or in small groups. That includes boards that have private sections that have member classifieds and the like.

Is there a secret "group" or secret handshake? Of sorts, yes. I see the same group of vip's in the private sections. Some guys don't venture out from more than 1 board but many of us do. How many guys are in this group? I bet I could give an educated and be somewhat accurate if I sat down and got busy.
When I use the word "Community" that's the group I'm referring to. I'm not talking about the IFBB pro's at this years Olympia? You're part of that Community, Millard? You may not be active but you're on the guest list, I see your handle.

 

[biggerben69]

@biggerben69 not sure what you are talking about. Your statement that I see things differently than most is quite the compliment.

Wasn't meant as a compliment or an insult. It just is.

 

[ironwill1951]

i agree with cbs the underground section has became a source section (not what it was intended for) mostly because of the SCOC, what does one expect when you have a set of questions and rules sources must adhere to before they are approved to sell here ? that should have been apparent to everyone when it was started , if you dont want it to be a source section get rid of the SCOC , or put it in a source section which is not what meso should be .

 

[Jimmyhoffa59]

Here is my personal experience with Meso and the way things run here. Using experiences like mine can help shape and modify the goals of our site.

I came here after being banned from the SF forum for asking a damn simple question about becoming a VIP. Upon arriving here I found it was NOT easy to go and look for a simple list of sources and decide which one I wanted to utilize, that simple fact was annoying and I was not sure I was going to stay. After reading through the site I realized people were sharing good and BAD experiences with some of the places I had seen on other boards, awesome! I thought to myself "fuck im glad I never ordered from that guy."

I had found a home where questions can be asked, and I'll get real life unpaid answers whether they be negative or positive. I was not being put down or threatened because of how dumb I may have seemed asking.

Having formulated a plan to runa cycle after a decade i was anxiously still filing through the info to decide who I could use. A recommendation came by private but a wkm. I used the source, had great first experience and have learned tons along the way. Later on that source came back with percievable "poor" labmax results which obviously soured my feelings on continuing to use them, however my experiences and gains were good and it came with the territory that shit happens.

After the closure of that experiences I have moved on and was searching again for a better source. Saw the Astro lab thread and thought after people's "just read and you will find one" replies I thought ok well he seems to have a lot of good reviews from wkms..so I contacted him..no reply..a month later i pm again got a reply and put in an order for what I wanted and waited for pay info...month goes by and nothing but him posting how he's not taking new people, blah blah he can close when he wants and your only good enough to order if your using Bitcoin or an important client...okay wtf! My money isn't as good as the next guys?

Now he is entitled to do things how he pleases and what not but I saw he was given a sense of "power" over members..like he was so good of a source he can be a prick, make the rules on how he conducts business here and such. Now it's hard for me to put into words that experience but im just trying to say that sources should never be allowed to feel they are in charge or in any way here for the benefit of our members...WE are the ones who are valuable and they are to be kept below us..hence "underground".

Simply put no matter how you adapt this forum my favorite part is where the members carry an EQUAL power over anyone trying to source. For 95% of my experiences here that is exactly what has happened, more than 10 times I have been saved by listening to sound advice from those wkms even Dr Jim when it came to a source with "pharma GH" , every ounce of me wanted to think they were just pig headed but in the end they were correct and that is EXACTLY how this place should stay.

Now I'm long winded and not the best with my words on some of these things but in closing that's my experiences so far and they have been good. The most significant and profound differences here that I love are that im not bullied by a source and they are not protected from being held accountable if they are underdosing or scamming good people.

 

[hotdog23]

I understand the current state of the underground is not what Millard envisioned.

But I for one, appreciate having uncensored access to my sources. This is the ONLY place I can do that. This is the ONLY place I can hold my sources accountable. And for that I am thankful.

The solution? @Millard Baker allow sourcing or don't. There is no middle ground IMO