Titan Labs

[dnml]

I hate to say this, but I highly doubt you understood that study, as this study isn't even about testosterone enanathate, propiante, or cypionate. This study is about the effects of nandrolone (read deca, two different esters, prop and decanoate) for plasma nandrolone (read blood seperation test for nandrolone), testosterone (read natural testosterone suppression) and inihibin measurements when nandrolone was in arachis oil. The rest of the study isn't available, so I can't even see what the difference was in the injection sites. The largest conclusion I could draw from this (the abstract alone) is that phenylpropinate nandrolone is absorbed faster than nandrolone decanoate, which most people already know...

This study is also very small consisting of 13 people, for only 32 days after one injection, it draws pretty broad conclusions for such vastly different esters that it's testing.

I readily admitted when I posted it that I didn't understand all of it- same goes for the study Dr. Scally posted, and every other study for that matter. I'm not a scientist or a doctor.

And I also said the absorption rate/bioavailability findings seemed secondary to this studies purpose.

Having said that, the point remains that for: ●1ml of Deca inj in the glute, ~13-14ng were available in the bloodstream day 1
●Vs. 1 ml of Deca inj in the delt, ~5-6ng were available in the bloodstream day 1

The broader point here is that injection site, regardless of deca or test or eq or ....., does have an effect on the active life of the hormone.

If you can find a study that shows otherwise I'll always remain open minded, but my position is not just based on this one study. I mentioned that this was all I could dig up on the fly..

 

[dnml]

Quick note to the board: Apologies for the distraction yesterday. That should have been handled outside this thread. I rarely start shit with people, but like we all saw, I also don't back down from it if someone insists on starting shit with me. That probably won't change, but I'll be sure to respect the topic of the thread and not distract as I said.

 

[Ozzy619]

If you compare Titanlabs's activity on Meso and Titan's activity on Evo, most posts are within ~20 mins of each other and have the same multi-hour gap in between. Here is a screenshot (EVO on the left, MESO on the right.)

Not that this is anything conclusive, or even if it is TL I suppose there isn't anything wrong with doing it, but saying that you QC every batch, and nothing is ever underdosed is a bit iffy to say the least.

Then when you go on to say, "'[...] Again I want to just say this is by far the best forum I have been on. [...]," it may rub some people the wrong way especially if those people have potentially been wronged by you but still have treated you with respect (LightSpan.)

Personally I think Light put a lot of effort into vetting you and letting the rest of us know, and he's probably responsible for more than a few of your sales. Perhaps nothing was/is wrong with your gear, nevertheless, you should still kiss his ass if not suck his dick to make him happy!

Looks like you're fitting in pretty damn good here dude, a couple of your posts have turned my frown upside down now

 

[Ozzy619]

Quick note to the board: Apologies for the distraction yesterday. That should have been handled outside this thread. I rarely start shit with people, but like we all saw, I also don't back down from it if someone insists on starting shit with me. That probably won't change, but I'll be sure to respect the topic of the thread and not distract as I said.

Thanks, I like reading drama from time to time but some shit should be dropped

 

[dnml]

I believe this is the full study:

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/281/1/93.full

And I agree that he didn't understand it, I posted something to that effect a few pages back with an image of a graph from the study.

**EDIT**
You beat me to it, looks like you found the full study. I think that is the same image I posted, it doesn't seem to support his point much at all.

The last two sentences are the "meat" of the study to my layman's eye:

■ "Thus, the bioavailability and physiological effects of a nandrolone ester in an oil vehicle are greatest when the ester is injected in a small (1 ml vs. 4 ml) volume and into the gluteal vs. deltoid muscle. We conclude that the side-chain ester and the injection site and volume influence the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in an oil vehicle in men."

Are you disputing this? Or saying I'm misinterpreting it? It seems pretty black and white to me, unless I'm missing something.

 

[vivame]

Having said that, the point remains that for: ●1ml of Deca inj in the glute, ~13-14ng were available in the bloodstream day 1
●Vs. 1 ml of Deca inj in the delt, ~5-6ng were available in the bloodstream day 1

The broader point here is that injection site, regardless of deca or test or eq or ....., does have an effect on the active life of the hormone.

I'm reposting the pic I posted earlier but with a bit of an interpretation that may help you out (if I'm correct.)

Comparing the Gluteal 1ml to the Deltoid 1ml
Day 1:

Gluteal = ~13.5nM
Deltoid = ~7nM​

Day 4:

Gluteal = ~14nM
Deltoid = ~9nM​

Day 11:

Gluteal = ~7nM <= HALF
Deltoid = ~7nM​

Day 16:

Gluteal = ~4nM
Deltoid = ~4nM <= HALF​

Day 27:

Gluteal = ~2nM
Deltoid = ~2nM​

So to me it looks like between the 2 muscles, there is about a 5 day difference in the time it takes for nandrolone levels to become half of what they were in day one. The two plots follow almost the exact same curve except that the glute seems to give you higher levels initially. After that the levels are almost the exact same.

My conclusion is that both the delts and glutes have peaks at about the exact same time however the glutes give you more bang for your buck. So test timing doesn't seem to play a significant role in this, and unless I'm mistaken, it seems like deltoids may just be wasteful.

Looks like you're fitting in pretty damn good here dude, a couple of your posts have turned my frown upside down now

Thanks, I rather like it here. The only thing so far that I dislike about meso is I spend too much time trying to keep up with everything and it is cutting into my workout and sleep time

 

[vivame]

The last two sentences are the "meat" of the study to my layman's eye:

■ "Thus, the bioavailability and physiological effects of a nandrolone ester in an oil vehicle are greatest when the ester is injected in a small (1 ml vs. 4 ml) volume and into the gluteal vs. deltoid muscle. We conclude that the side-chain ester and the injection site and volume influence the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in an oil vehicle in men."

Are you disputing this? Or saying I'm misinterpreting it? It seems pretty black and white to me, unless I'm missing something.

I'm not disputing it. I think my only gripe was with the statement you said (I think it was you, but I'm too lazy to verify,) about delts doubling half life. I think we are more or less on the same page; and I learned not to use delts as an injection source because it just seems wasteful.

I should start a thread in the mens health section and see if I can get @Michael Scally MD to weigh in on injection sites. I believe he is pro subcutaneous injections for TRT patients.

 

[bickel29]

If you compare Titanlabs's activity on Meso and Titan's activity on Evo, most posts are within ~20 mins of each other and have the same multi-hour gap in between. Here is a screenshot (EVO on the left, MESO on the right.)

Not that this is anything conclusive, or even if it is TL I suppose there isn't anything wrong with doing it, but saying that you QC every batch, and nothing is ever underdosed is a bit iffy to say the least.

Then when you go on to say, "'[...] Again I want to just say this is by far the best forum I have been on. [...]," it may rub some people the wrong way especially if those people have potentially been wronged by you but still have treated you with respect (LightSpan.)

Personally I think Light put a lot of effort into vetting you and letting the rest of us know, and he's probably responsible for more than a few of your sales. Perhaps nothing was/is wrong with your gear, nevertheless, you should still kiss his ass if not suck his dick to make him happy!

Thank you for the work, Vivame! Nicely done, my friend!

 

[lightspan]

If you compare Titanlabs's activity on Meso and Titan's activity on Evo, most posts are within ~20 mins of each other and have the same multi-hour gap in between. Here is a screenshot (EVO on the left, MESO on the right.)

Not that this is anything conclusive, or even if it is TL I suppose there isn't anything wrong with doing it, but saying that you QC every batch, and nothing is ever underdosed is a bit iffy to say the least.

Then when you go on to say, "'[...] Again I want to just say this is by far the best forum I have been on. [...]," it may rub some people the wrong way especially if those people have potentially been wronged by you but still have treated you with respect (LightSpan.)

Personally I think Light put a lot of effort into vetting you and letting the rest of us know, and he's probably responsible for more than a few of your sales. Perhaps nothing was/is wrong with your gear, nevertheless, you should still kiss his ass if not suck his dick to make him happy!

thanks, @vivame, but i'm going to pass on the mouth hugs from titan. i jumped in with both feet on this one, labmax, ms and bloodwork, to quickly provide solid evidence about titan's gear. it would have been nice to get the added benefit of "early" gear from a source, which is almost always high potency. who sends out underdosed gear, knowing it will be tested? that did not happen, but the goal was accomplished. data, and very early on.

you know what i want? properly dosed gear. for everyone. kumbaya, etc.

your support and efforts in this thread are invaluable, please cozy up and don't go anywhere, you bring critical thinking skills to the table, something we can never have enough of here.

and let me make sure to thank @4leafclover, also adding logic and reason to this thread. yes, 600 mg/wk should yield > 5000 ng/dl. scally says it. lewellyn says it. members with experience say it. let's try singing it in three part harmony, B flat, maybe that will work?

you cats get my gratitude and respect for contributing in a thoughtful way. again, thanks.

 

[4leafclover]

The last two sentences are the "meat" of the study to my layman's eye:

■ "Thus, the bioavailability and physiological effects of a nandrolone ester in an oil vehicle are greatest when the ester is injected in a small (1 ml vs. 4 ml) volume and into the gluteal vs. deltoid muscle. We conclude that the side-chain ester and the injection site and volume influence the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in an oil vehicle in men."

Are you disputing this? Or saying I'm misinterpreting it? It seems pretty black and white to me, unless I'm missing something.


The broader point here is that injection site, regardless of deca or test or eq or ....., does have an effect on the active life of the hormone.

Let me make this simple for you, if you are injecting 1ML and testing it in a day, then yes, it will make a difference for the injection site. As you can see by the graph, testing after 15 days (which was the case with lightspan), there is RELATIVELY NO DIFFERENCE.

And its not ng as you're referencing, its NM a different measurement... nm = nanometer, ng = nanogram...

Again let me repeat, the above study was conducted on nandrolone and at 1 ML, go find some studies at supratheraputic levels.

And no, if you were a scientist you could not draw your broader point conclusions about entirely different compounds when none of them were tested, you would only draw conclusions on NANDROLONE, as that is what the study pertains to. That's like saying hcg would be best shot in the glute, because deca is; following your same logic...

 

[mesoreader1]

Are you suuure thats not you on the other forum? whatever

 

[Titanlabs]

Well, lots of interesting reading on glute vs delt injections lol.

As far as evo goes, its not us...like I said, not really sure there is any way to prove it. That said, lets use logic here. If we were having issues on forum then why the fuck would we open up on another forum under the same name? If we did open up on another forum it would not be the same name. Thats just common sense.

As far as everything else goes, I still think the assumption that 575mg/wk will always yield over 5000ng/dl serm is not correct. Just googling blood work turns up a lot of data to say otherwise. But I think personal metabolism is being severely overlooked.

There was an article on another forum regarding blood tests and differences in drug metabolism...Ill try and find it. That said, more blood work will give better data points.

Not sure if I should even say this really but I got bloods done while running astro's test E and test prop. I was using 1.5g of E per week split into two 750mg shots and the prop was at 100mg eod. I got bloods done and my test serum was 5700. Ill put them up in a bit. That was just before I started contest prep maybe 16 weeks out or so.

But, I did hear back on a mass spec. I will be sending the sample out sometime early next week pending payment info. This is what I am really interested in. Our oils are all overdosed by roughly 5%, take it for what you will, so if there is an issue its on the supplier end and pending a mass spec I will switch suppliers immediately if needed.

TL

 

[rutman]

Common sense and ugl selling gear doesn't always go together. I'm sure you have tons of Titan labels than need to be used up. Not to mention all of the bottles that haven't been sold yet that are Titan labeled... It's common sense NOT to change your name on the other site. It's hard to sell under another name when all your bottles say Titan.

 

[TexAg]

Common sense says why wouldn't you be on more forums.. you could make more money

 

[Titanlabs]

Common sense and ugl selling gear doesn't always go together. I'm sure you have tons of Titan labels than need to be used up. Not to mention all of the bottles that haven't been sold yet that are Titan labeled... It's common sense NOT to change your name on the other site. It's hard to sell under another name when all your bottles say Titan.

Its not hard to remove a label and put a new one on. If everyone here were singing our praises then yes that would make sense. But as it stands, doesnt make much sense for us to do that.

Common sense says why wouldn't you be on more forums.. you could make more money

Im not in it for the money, Im in it for longevity. I dont want to end up slammed with more work than I can handle and a 4 week TA. Stress and years off my life isnt worth it to me.


Anyways, here are the bloods for whatever its worth. Also, the link below is the post I read on drug metabolism. So, in the case of the post, its about growth hormone. However, the poster (a respected mod and member of a lot of forums) said he scored under 20 on a growth serum test for GH right from the pharmacy. Look around online and you will find results for 10iu of seros, genos, etc to be anywhere from 20-40+. That is a MASSIVE difference in serum levels.

Granted Im comparing growth to test in this example but the point is, if there is a 200% range difference (or more) for the same pharmaceutical product, then I dont think its unreasonable to think that individual serum levels for test could varry that much as well.

Im just throwing this stuff out for discussion. Mass spec is really the only thing I want to go by as it doesnt lie.

TL

 

[Fckit]

You're probably googling people receiving blood work for underdosed garbage. I don't know how much more clear it gets, the respected physicians in this field all agree BOTTOM LINE. Also, I realize you are trying to get a basis point with MS, but we have to take those results with a grain of salt being that you, the lab, are producing them.

Lastly, I'm on Astros gear now and will be getting blood work in the next 2-3 weeks. If results are similar, he can expect to receive the same heat. Mediocrity being the norm is not an acceptable excuse for these results.

Well, lots of interesting reading on glute vs delt injections lol.

As far as evo goes, its not us...like I said, not really sure there is any way to prove it. That said, lets use logic here. If we were having issues on forum then why the fuck would we open up on another forum under the same name? If we did open up on another forum it would not be the same name. Thats just common sense.

As far as everything else goes, I still think the assumption that 575mg/wk will always yield over 5000ng/dl serm is not correct. Just googling blood work turns up a lot of data to say otherwise. But I think personal metabolism is being severely overlooked.

There was an article on another forum regarding blood tests and differences in drug metabolism...Ill try and find it. That said, more blood work will give better data points.

Not sure if I should even say this really but I got bloods done while running astro's test E and test prop. I was using 1.5g of E per week split into two 750mg shots and the prop was at 100mg eod. I got bloods done and my test serum was 5700. Ill put them up in a bit. That was just before I started contest prep maybe 16 weeks out or so.

But, I did hear back on a mass spec. I will be sending the sample out sometime early next week pending payment info. This is what I am really interested in. Our oils are all overdosed by roughly 5%, take it for what you will, so if there is an issue its on the supplier end and pending a mass spec I will switch suppliers immediately if needed.

TL

 

[Titanlabs]

Hopefully those attachments arent too small. Test serum is 5695 and estro is 220. Im guessing someone on here has better eyes than I do

 

[TexAg]

Its not hard to remove a label and put a new one on. If everyone here were singing our praises then yes that would make sense. But as it stands, doesnt make much sense for us to do that.



Im not in it for the money, Im in it for longevity. I dont want to end up slammed with more work than I can handle and a 4 week TA. Stress and years off my life isnt worth it to me.


Anyways, here are the bloods for whatever its worth. Also, the link below is the post I read on drug metabolism. So, in the case of the post, its about growth hormone. However, the poster (a respected mod and member of a lot of forums) said he scored under 20 on a growth serum test for GH right from the pharmacy. Look around online and you will find results for 10iu of seros, genos, etc to be anywhere from 20-40+. That is a MASSIVE difference in serum levels.

Granted Im comparing growth to test in this example but the point is, if there is a 200% range difference (or more) for the same pharmaceutical product, then I dont think its unreasonable to think that individual serum levels for test could varry that much as well.

Im just throwing this stuff out for discussion. Mass spec is really the only thing I want to go by as it doesnt lie.

TL

That may sound all nice and shit and you may love what you do.. but you sure as fuck would not do this for free or break-even. Why would you?

 

[GigaloRob]

Hopefully those attachments arent too small. Test serum is 5695 and estro is 220. Im guessing someone on here has better eyes than I do

People have by far more intelligence here then you are apparently giving them credit for. You can spin your bullshit all you want. It's pretty obvious that you and the titan from evo are one in the same. The fact that you continue to deny it shows how little respect you have for anyone. You smelled bad to me from the start. Please insult peoples intelligence more by claiming it's not you on evo. Also enough with the tests done by you/your friend. It means nothing.

 

[devildog93]

Yea, sorry pal but i think any testing done by the source is going to have zero weight. That is especially true when said source is in damage control mode. Even if it were legit and verifiable it means nothing. So you had some good shit stashed away and ran labs on that or mass specced it, now what? Would that do anything to help prove the shit you sent out to others was good in anyone's eyes? I'm thinking probably not. Lay the multiple fake mass spec reports people have seen from sources and fake labs and you can see why any end user would call a source test into question.

I'm afraid a test that would get any credibility would have to be by an end user and even then i'm sure their report would be weighed by what people think of them on the forums and how good their general rep runs.