What is wrong with daily low dose HCG with TRT?

[Handle2]

Some docs such as Crisler and Mariano have their patients on 100iu HCG per day in conjunction with daily T gel or twice weekly test cyp injections. The daily low dose HCG is to prevent E2 levels from going too high.
It seems that some people here are against such a protocol. Why is that?

 

[Dr JIM]

Why is that? Their are NO benefits in doing so if TRT is being utilized.

HCG is an expensive supplement with a shelf life of 30 days and at 100IU per day 2000IU is WASTED.

Additionally since the primary reason for TRT is GONADAL failure HCG is of no BENEFIT is these patients. So you are given TWO injections at a higher cost when one shot is more than adequate!

Because HCG increases E-2 levels, using a more frequent dosing (QD) schedule does result in lower E-2 peaks compared two weekly injections, why not just eliminate the underlying causation, HCG, from the outset!

Jim

 

[cvictorg]

Show me any study showing the safety of long term hcg usage.

 

[Handle2]

Well those on TRT who are secondary take HCG to prevent testicular atrophy and/or to maintain fertility, correct?
The question for these individuals is how can it best be used in conjunction with TRT to prevent E2 levels from climbing too high?

 

[foreveryoung]

also seems to me that it's effects are much less predictable and consistent

for me the estrogen problems are unavoidable with it

bottom line is it is way more problems than anything it solves

 

[Handle2]

So how does one maintain their normal pre TRT testicular size without it (assuming they were normal size beforehand)?

 

[Sworder]

Show me any study showing the safety of long term hcg usage.

I agree, the dangers of hCG are....... Added e2 as a result of testosterone->estrogen... Direct conversion to estrogen(LH has the same potential.....) Lastly and the most dangerous large testicles. Just kidding on that last one, it's the 5 year old scrotum appearance that is dangerous.


Anybody want to chime in with the "leydig desensitization?"

 

[foreveryoung]

So how does one maintain their normal pre TRT testicular size without it (assuming they were normal size beforehand)?

many of us don't worry about that, more important things to worry about

 

[Dr JIM]

HCG has LITTLE to NO EFFECT on testicular atrophy if the etiology is of "Low T" is PRIMARY TESTICULAR FAILURE, which accounts for at least 60% of patients whom are on testosterone replacement therapy! (That's the second time OP I've mentioned this fact). It is only used for those patients with HYPOGONADOTROPIC HYPOGONADISM. If you don't understand the difference start with wiki!

 

[Sworder]

Great point Jim!

If a patient's testicles are unresponsive to LH they will be unresponsive to hCG as well. A doctor that prescribes hCG to a patient who is primary isn't the brightest bulb!

TRT is becoming more of a increasing testosterone levels to the mid-high range though as you can tell by the beautiful banner on the top of the page. The low testosterone "experts" at steroid.com have taken the step into HRT, the same guy who started buysteroids.com which are herbal supplements lol.

Somebody should teach them how to spell HIPAA and not HIPPA. Experts my ass LMFAO

 

[Michael Scally MD]

HCG has LITTLE to NO EFFECT on testicular atrophy if the etiology is of "Low T" is PRIMARY TESTICULAR FAILURE, which accounts for at least 60% of patients whom are on testosterone replacement therapy! (That's the second time OP I've mentioned this fact). It is only used for those patients with HYPOGONADOTROPIC HYPOGONADISM. If you don't understand the difference start with wiki!

Can you provide support for this claim? I think not. In fact, almost all will be secondary or mixed.

In the larger argument regarding hCG, there is the consideration for its use that includes BOTH dose and schedule. More on this later ...

FWIW: We are not that far apart on hCG issue, but the argument needs more details.

 

[vantage108]

I've been on 250 iu EOD for about two months now. It has incrementally improved my sense of well-being, and hasn't (yet) created any obvious E2-management issues. But I'm still unconvinced that this is something I'm willing to do long-term.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I've been on 250 iu EOD for about two months now. It has incrementally improved my sense of well-being, and hasn't (yet) created any obvious E2-management issues. But I'm still unconvinced that this is something I'm willing to do long-term.

What do you attribute this "incremental improved sense of well-being" to?

Regarding hCG, there are 4 possible reasons for its use: (1) Testosterone, (2) Spermatogenesis, (3) Testes Volume (TV), and (4) Extragonadal. More later ...

Going back to the OP, if one makes use of hCG what is the best schedule. This can answered more easily and is clearly not a daily administration. More later ...

 

[zkt]

Good eye man! That one went right bye me. I really DOES inspire confidence. LOL

Great point Jim!

If a patient's testicles are unresponsive to LH they will be unresponsive to hCG as well. A doctor that prescribes hCG to a patient who is primary isn't the brightest bulb!

TRT is becoming more of a increasing testosterone levels to the mid-high range though as you can tell by the beautiful banner on the top of the page. The low testosterone "experts" at steroid.com have taken the step into HRT, the same guy who started buysteroids.com which are herbal supplements lol.

Somebody should teach them how to spell HIPAA and not HIPPA. Experts my ass LMFAO

 

[vantage108]

What do you attribute this "incremental improved sense of well-being" to?

I could say something handwave-y about filling in the hormonal blanks that T replacement alone doesn't fill, but in truth, I have no idea. It isn't simply the incremental increase in total testosterone.

 

[Nate92]

I am not trying to argue with anyone, just having a constructive discussion. I have a account with both here and AllThingsMale. AllThingsMale users are advocates for HCG, of course that makes sense since it is Dr. Crisler's website. There are many people on that site that use HCG with relatively no problems. In fact, they even claim it is helpful for their well-being on TRT. Now don't get me wrong, I know that testing is limited short-term and long-term use is unknown. I just think the idea of HCG usage should be entertained by all. Someone here mentioned that there are no tests claiming the safety of HCG. Where are the tests claiming it is not safe? In fact, I haven't read of people even claiming it isn't safe It is most certainly worth looking into more. Most importantly, it has been noted to help preserve fertility by stimulating the testicles. Although it doesn't fully preserve fertility, testicular function, even if partial function, is still very important to some people. As a 21 year old male, HCG could be as important to me as the use of TRT itself.

And I speak for people whom are secondary. Of course, HCG doesn't make sense for people whom are primary.

What do you attribute this "incremental improved sense of well-being" to?

Regarding hCG, there are 4 possible reasons for its use: (1) Testosterone, (2) Spermatogenesis, (3) Testes Volume (TV), and (4) Extragonadal. More later ...

Going back to the OP, if one makes use of hCG what is the best schedule. This can answered more easily and is clearly not a daily administration. More later ...

What is your stance on HCG Dr. Scally? Or are you undecided for the time being?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I could say something handwave-y about filling in the hormonal blanks that T replacement alone doesn't fill, but in truth, I have no idea. It isn't simply the incremental increase in total testosterone.

First, I apologize for not knowing your details. I see you have been a member since Feb 2011. How long have you been on TRT? What form? Do you have labs after the hCG, including E2? And, what made you decide to start hCG?

BTW: You use the word incremental twice, but in one context to negate the other. As far as hormonal blanks, do you know of ANY evidence that TRT creates such blanks?

FWIW: I am an advocate of selected hCG use, but NOT daily administration, which is just plain dumb.

 

[Sworder]

FWIW: I am an advocate of selected hCG use, but NOT daily administration, which is just plain dumb.

@Nate92

I covered the dangers of hCG use already. Cvictorg has been angry lately, don't worry about him I actually like his posts although recently I have been showing the opposite, but the opposite of the opposite is true.

I can dig up long term use of hCG 1-2years + but to serve which point? It's easier to prove something rather than disprove. I can prove it has been used a long(relative term, should we say 1-2 years?) But the measures will not be related to the point he is talking about, honestly I don't know what he is talking about.

In terms of stimulating testosterone production? I don't believe that is his point, his measure is going to be something that you cannot measure. Mental health or something to that effect, libido, I don't know... Cvictorg, care to respond?

 

[Nate92]

@Nate92

I covered the dangers of hCG use already. Cvictorg has been angry lately, don't worry about him I actually like his posts although recently I have been showing the opposite, but the opposite of the opposite is true.

I might be missing something, but didn't you claim the dangers were higher Estradiol? Can't this simply be controlled my an Aromatase Inhibitor?

I can dig up long term use of hCG 1-2years + but to serve which point? It's easier to prove something rather than disprove. I can prove it has been used a long(relative term, should we say 1-2 years?) But the measures will not be related to the point he is talking about, honestly I don't know what he is talking about.

In terms of stimulating testosterone production? I don't believe that is his point, his measure is going to be something that you cannot measure. Mental health or something to that effect, libido, I don't know... Cvictorg, care to respond?

I assume when you say "he" you are referring to Cvictorg? I didn't intend my post as a response, just as general thinking to those whom are against for no other reason than it's lack of support.

I don't dispute that you have long term studies. I think it is great if you do! What are their results? I want to learn as much as I can about HCG.

 

[Sworder]

I actually said the 5 year old scrotum look is dangerous, not the other issues. They were jokes.

I am not saying there are studies supporting long term use, I am saying there are studies on long term use so what are we looking for? Loss of libido? Mental health issues? Leydig desensitization? Cholesterol or BP issues attributed to hCG directly? So many questions and very few answers.