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Why there almost certainly is No God!!
- Thread starter Desibaba
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4Figgy
Member
Sounds like you have opened up your mind and heart to come to a personal understanding. That is very good to see in people instead of blindly following the thiest/atheist heard. I’ve always found that being sincere and open minded when thinking about these things is the best way to come to a rational decision.
Your comment on something higher than yourself being personal is very interesting. I would highly recommend following that feeling/relationship. I believe that a higher power would only spend any time or energy on creating something that was also personal to it. Something it would want a relationship with as well. Enjoy the journey brother.
Reading the bible is the fastest way to destroy the Christian and Jewish religion, reading the Koran is the fastest way to a full frontal lobotomy. 1700 bible verses of barbarity, genocide, slavery, murder, sex slavery, child slavery, cutting your wifes hand off and showing her no pity, stoning your daughter and son to death for any number of offenses, even a priest induced abortion when a women is suspected of having relations while her husband is away.
No more fucked up collection of writings than this colossal pile of fly covered dog shit we call the bible.
Even if Yahweh was real, and we know he's not because we can clearly see where this myth was created and what canon it came from, it would be embarrassing as a thinking person to ever worship this made up evil sick sadistic creature. When Christians are called out for this, they say "you can't question God", I can only assume these people are the type that like to tie little kittens in a sack and beat them with a ball bat.
As for Jesus, if he existed and I doubt he ever existed at least by what the gospels tell, he would be just a man that was bat shit crazy, couldn't keep his mouth shut, so the Romans had to spank his fanny and hang him on a board.
The bullshit of him dying so he could forgive us from himself. You want to talk about circular reasoning. Why wouldn't you just forgive someone or just not care. If my son or daughter denied me, I wouldn't burn them, torture them, or do anything else to them. I'd just go on with my life and let them live theirs.
Then we have the concept of hell, a Persian Zoroastrianism invention that was absent from the old testament, but was injected into the new testment to warn the people that god means business this time.
It's very simple. There's a video on Youtube of Chinese cooking dogs alive, hanging them up and using a torch to cook them while they screech out and scream in mind blowing levels of sadistic torture, they throw them in boiling vats of oil alive, cut their legs off while they're alive screaming with meat cleavers. This is what Hell is supposed to be. Fuck anything that would do that to any person or animal that can feel pain. That's not something you worship, that's someone you fucking kill and erase from existence.
As for the rest of everything religion provides, it promises everything and delivers absolutely nothing, it's worse than that, it causes people to hate one another, wars, to kill each other, to oppress each other, to limit their creativity and turn off their ability to think for themselves. It has taught humanity to imprison his own mind and reject all that is completely natural, to actually go against what any living organism wants, and that is death so they can go to heaven. There is no animal that I know of that wants to die. When I watch African specials, I see animals always running for their lives, doing their best to stay alive, I've never seen a group of them standing around praying that a lion would come along so they can pass onto the next world. How humans allowed this idea to creep into their heads is scary.
Of course the last thing is what Christianity did to the world, it turned mankind into a blubbering crybaby mess, it taught him to get on his knees and start crying like a little baby to this creature of middle east.
I think Nietzsche's Will to Power is probably the best attack on this way of thinking. Don't pray, if you want something, get up and fucking do it.
No more fucked up collection of writings than this colossal pile of fly covered dog shit we call the bible.
Even if Yahweh was real, and we know he's not because we can clearly see where this myth was created and what canon it came from, it would be embarrassing as a thinking person to ever worship this made up evil sick sadistic creature. When Christians are called out for this, they say "you can't question God", I can only assume these people are the type that like to tie little kittens in a sack and beat them with a ball bat.
As for Jesus, if he existed and I doubt he ever existed at least by what the gospels tell, he would be just a man that was bat shit crazy, couldn't keep his mouth shut, so the Romans had to spank his fanny and hang him on a board.
The bullshit of him dying so he could forgive us from himself. You want to talk about circular reasoning. Why wouldn't you just forgive someone or just not care. If my son or daughter denied me, I wouldn't burn them, torture them, or do anything else to them. I'd just go on with my life and let them live theirs.
Then we have the concept of hell, a Persian Zoroastrianism invention that was absent from the old testament, but was injected into the new testment to warn the people that god means business this time.
It's very simple. There's a video on Youtube of Chinese cooking dogs alive, hanging them up and using a torch to cook them while they screech out and scream in mind blowing levels of sadistic torture, they throw them in boiling vats of oil alive, cut their legs off while they're alive screaming with meat cleavers. This is what Hell is supposed to be. Fuck anything that would do that to any person or animal that can feel pain. That's not something you worship, that's someone you fucking kill and erase from existence.
As for the rest of everything religion provides, it promises everything and delivers absolutely nothing, it's worse than that, it causes people to hate one another, wars, to kill each other, to oppress each other, to limit their creativity and turn off their ability to think for themselves. It has taught humanity to imprison his own mind and reject all that is completely natural, to actually go against what any living organism wants, and that is death so they can go to heaven. There is no animal that I know of that wants to die. When I watch African specials, I see animals always running for their lives, doing their best to stay alive, I've never seen a group of them standing around praying that a lion would come along so they can pass onto the next world. How humans allowed this idea to creep into their heads is scary.
Of course the last thing is what Christianity did to the world, it turned mankind into a blubbering crybaby mess, it taught him to get on his knees and start crying like a little baby to this creature of middle east.
I think Nietzsche's Will to Power is probably the best attack on this way of thinking. Don't pray, if you want something, get up and fucking do it.
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4Figgy
Member
Dr William Lane Craig has some wonderful info that pretty much rebukes every one of your objections to Christianity. Check him out. You will find it interesting.
Edit: Nietzsche was at least honest to admit that if there is no God then life is utterly pointless. He pretty much went mad with his conclusions. Makes you wonder if such a life is worth living.
William Lane Craig is a joke. I've been an atheist for 40+ years. Watched many debates with Craig. Sean Carroll Ripped him a new ass when he debated an actual physicist with a very high IQ. Craig didn't know what to do when he was standing next to a theoretical physicist, he knew he was holding a lousy hand and didn't have the courage to bow out and admit that he has been a fraud his entire life.
How anyone can think Craig has solved the problem is beyond me. The kalam cosmological argument and his use of embarrassing syllogisms that rely on deductive reasoning have and are completely worthless in the world of science. Aristotle might have been cutting edge in his day, but his day has passed.
Craig claims to be a philosopher, but he's done absolutely nothing in the world of philosophy, his career has been built trying to explaining "his" God into existence using word salad and of course completely flawed deductive reasoning.
As for having no purpose without God. Well life can be viewed as having no "one" purpose, but you have this life and you might as well enjoy it if you can. Thinking that life sucks and is pointless if you don't have a magical sky daddy is a personal opinion. If you want to piss your life away by believing that, then you can, I just wouldn't expect others to follow.
Just like my dog doesn't view his life as having some over arching purpose other than getting some tasty food and a belly rub, humans have slightly more sophisticated wants and needs, but it doesn't need to include anything supernatural, most people just want a decent life and when they die they die.
4Figgy
Member
I found that debate to be anything other than an embarrassment for Craig. Also, it is the scientists who haven’t kept up with philosophers, not the philosophers who haven’t kept up with the scientists. Carroll displayed that fault incredibly well when it came to much of the philosophical part of that debate.
I find his cosmological argument to be very sound, and supported by the BGV theorem, but I also can tell by your anger that you would not be satisfied. Hope you find some piece.
The kinds of arguments WLC presents are the kind that only work for those that want to be convinced.
The bottom line is you can't argue the supernatural into existence. No matter how vast your vocabulary. No matter how deep you want to go down the rabbit hole you still have "Absolutely" nothing to show for it.
If all of your evidence sits on the hearsay of bronze aged goat herders, I'm sorry, but you couldn't present that in the court of law nor would you waste a single minute making these arguments in a peer reviewed accredited academic setting unless you don't mind being laughed off the stage.
If you knew nothing of god, were brought up in a setting where you were trained to use the scientific method, would you really expect to be convinced by WLC? It's only because you were raised in a society where religion is shoved down our throats and injected into all matters that many people succumb to this constant repetitive propaganda until it becomes habit.
If you grew up on an island with a small clan and none of you knew anything about religion at all, how would you expect to arrive at the same conclusions and same religion as that which dominates any number of cultures.
Christianity, Islam, Judaism spread because they have texts to follow. There's a reason people are animist because there's no text telling you what to think and how to act. If you completely erased all traces of these scriptures and erased them from the memory of mankind, how would you arrive at the same religions that we have now, you wouldn't.
As for my anger about religion.
I see religion as dangerous, sadist and evil.
There are many people that are threatened with violence, that are shunned by their families and society because they refuse to pay respect to the imaginary world occupied by God.
People are put in positions of power and they wield this authority over their flock because they somehow have insight into the supernatural that can't be detected on any level.
Our government and the idea of victimless crime is largely based on the idea that you offend god when you use say steroids because you are exposing the body that god created to harm and you don't own yourself, god owns you, and the state must put you in your place to protect gods property(you), which is typically a 5 x 8 cell waiting your turn to be sodomized.
I see religion as dangerous, sadist and evil.
There are many people that are threatened with violence, that are shunned by their families and society because they refuse to pay respect to the imaginary world occupied by God.
People are put in positions of power and they wield this authority over their flock because they somehow have insight into the supernatural that can't be detected on any level.
Our government and the idea of victimless crime is largely based on the idea that you offend god when you use say steroids because you are exposing the body that god created to harm and you don't own yourself, god owns you, and the state must put you in your place to protect gods property(you), which is typically a 5 x 8 cell waiting your turn to be sodomized.
4Figgy
Member
I’ll answer these by paragraph:
1. That’s not an argument, it’s your bias towards your worldview.
2. You can’t argue the supernatural out of existence either. And Craig’s big words and “word salad” are actually extremely intelligent sentences put together that form a coherent argument. Just because you don’t understand the language doesn’t mean it’s invalid. I would argue that belief in a creator is nothing, but if true would be the greatest thing you could possibly show for it.
3. I was an atheist before I was a theist. If you want answers to your questions you have to look with an open mind and heart.
4. I think it’s natural and intelligent to wonder about the biggest questions in life; Why are we here? What is our purpose? Why does anything exist at all? What happens after death? Those won’t lead you to a specific religion, but can help you come to believe in some kind of higher power/creator without any other introduction.
5. Science and math are part of what moved me away from atheism. Dr Craig only helped reinforce with philosophy what I had come to believe true. The fact that our universe began to and exists, and the probability of it being able to produce and sustain life are two things science and math haven’t come close to explaining naturalistically.
6. That’s just a random hypothetical question that leads to what you want it to. I could change the outcome and say God would have intervened and shown himself to the world at some point in time. Past or future is irrelevant to whatever answer you want to choose.
WLC is one man, I don't see a lot of guys following in his footsteps. I don't see where he's accomplished anything of note. He spends his time yacking about something that can't be proven. He does know how to talk, but that's all it is, vibrating vocal chords, no different then if someone had played a solo on a saxophone. Neither of these can prove god exists.
Asking the big questions of life? We see this in metaphysics, most people know it's a dead end because it has no basis in reality. At best it's mental masturbation.
As far as God, most people and WLC in particular point to the Christian God as "the" God. So are we to use the bible that is full of contradictions and nonsense. That appears to be a product of its time with no forward predictions other than an apocalyptic end of the universe and eternal hell fire for those that dare to question and demand evidence for the supernatural. Where a God gives man sexual desire for flesh, and the hormones to increase this drive, but turns around and tells you it's a sin to give into this pleasure unless you do it the right way, his way.
If one believes in God, they have yet to answer who created God, what created God. Why would they so easily believe something started off complex from the very beginning when we don't see evidence for that in our reality, we instead see billions of years to cook up enough elements from nuclear fusion to create the universe, a gradual progression. Was this God just slowly taking his time twiddling his thumbs for 13.5 billion years before we showed up?
I hate asking who created God, because I don't like even given a second thought to a God that can't be detected by any of our senses or instrumentation, a God that seems obsessed with petty things that you would think a supreme being wouldn't concern itself with. What God sounds like is bronzed age man that wanted to control everything around him, that wanted to use and exploit others. A desert cult that wanted to win the pissing contest of religions by claiming their God was greater then all the other competing gods and they be default were the chosen. The bible very much fits with Middle Eastern Culture, a culture that has nothing to admire and everything to be repulsed by.
Asking the big questions of life? We see this in metaphysics, most people know it's a dead end because it has no basis in reality. At best it's mental masturbation.
As far as God, most people and WLC in particular point to the Christian God as "the" God. So are we to use the bible that is full of contradictions and nonsense. That appears to be a product of its time with no forward predictions other than an apocalyptic end of the universe and eternal hell fire for those that dare to question and demand evidence for the supernatural. Where a God gives man sexual desire for flesh, and the hormones to increase this drive, but turns around and tells you it's a sin to give into this pleasure unless you do it the right way, his way.
If one believes in God, they have yet to answer who created God, what created God. Why would they so easily believe something started off complex from the very beginning when we don't see evidence for that in our reality, we instead see billions of years to cook up enough elements from nuclear fusion to create the universe, a gradual progression. Was this God just slowly taking his time twiddling his thumbs for 13.5 billion years before we showed up?
I hate asking who created God, because I don't like even given a second thought to a God that can't be detected by any of our senses or instrumentation, a God that seems obsessed with petty things that you would think a supreme being wouldn't concern itself with. What God sounds like is bronzed age man that wanted to control everything around him, that wanted to use and exploit others. A desert cult that wanted to win the pissing contest of religions by claiming their God was greater then all the other competing gods and they be default were the chosen. The bible very much fits with Middle Eastern Culture, a culture that has nothing to admire and everything to be repulsed by.
I will end this by saying that most people believe in God.
Most people believe in the war on drugs, they believe incarceration and punitive life destroying punishment that lasts until the day you die, some would even like an afterlife full of pain and misery for these people as well.
Even though both of these views have lots of support by the over whelming majority, the evidence shows very strongly they're both wrong.
It's a tragedy that we can't wake up people to the immeasurable harm, pain and suffering we cause when we hold to beliefs that can't be supported with evidence.
Most people believe in the war on drugs, they believe incarceration and punitive life destroying punishment that lasts until the day you die, some would even like an afterlife full of pain and misery for these people as well.
Even though both of these views have lots of support by the over whelming majority, the evidence shows very strongly they're both wrong.
It's a tragedy that we can't wake up people to the immeasurable harm, pain and suffering we cause when we hold to beliefs that can't be supported with evidence.
movingiron88
Member
Anyone who pretends to know the right answer to this and many of our beliefs are wrong or close minded. We can only guess at the purpose of life. Until this is proven we are all guessing at what is right and what is wrong. Be open minded people.
When it comes to the nonsense of religion I will have no open mind if what I see is causing harm.
You want me to open my mind to Islam, the single most fucked up religion on the planet. No thanks. I've watched enough beheadings, hand amputations, stonings to last me a lifetime.
If you actually sit down and read the text of these religions, the bible, koran, Tanakh of the abrahamic faiths, the discourses of the buddha, Agamas from the Jain scriptures, Vedas of the Hindus and so on. There's no way you can seriously have an open mind to this sort of nonsense. They all contain incoherent babble and assertions without any evidence, from heaven to hell, to rebirth based on karmic debt.
Take these silly books out of peoples hands and hand them a textbook on neuroscience, university physics, chemistry, biology, cosmology. We'd create a better society and build up the brainpower of nations far more than those that go around shoving slop we call religion.
4Figgy
Member
I’m not going to open up a large debate that would take an hour or more in speech, but 500 pages of forum messages. I will recommend people be open minded, and then to honestly look at the arguments for theism/atheism or between any religions. Craig debates from a Christian worldview, and has sound coherent arguments for his beliefs. As does Ravi Zacharias and John Lenox. Nobody can force anyone to believe in something, and I would rather people hear all sides of the debate. I always recommend Craig, Zacharias, and Lenox for Christian worldview arguments. All 3 combined provide a very detailed view.
Ravi Zacharias is a scam artist that profits from gullible Christians.
Lenox argues from a position of authority based on his academic achievements, but what has he proven?
Philosophy that is used to prove God exists has crept into the apologists world fairly recently. 20 years ago you never really heard these arguments, then all the sudden we have amateur philosophers popping up that learn a specialized vocabulary unique to philosophy so they can create a word salad that confuses and hides the fact that they still have no proof.
Philosophy is just words, even Lenox with his mathematics achievements is just numbers, a language invented by man.
Where's the actual god/gods/God, present the actual God, show us the GOD, don't just present us words on a page or in a speech or a specialized language that few have learned, pull the curtain back and put on full display this creature we call God.
It's a simple request.....put up or shut up.
Lenox argues from a position of authority based on his academic achievements, but what has he proven?
Philosophy that is used to prove God exists has crept into the apologists world fairly recently. 20 years ago you never really heard these arguments, then all the sudden we have amateur philosophers popping up that learn a specialized vocabulary unique to philosophy so they can create a word salad that confuses and hides the fact that they still have no proof.
Philosophy is just words, even Lenox with his mathematics achievements is just numbers, a language invented by man.
Where's the actual god/gods/God, present the actual God, show us the GOD, don't just present us words on a page or in a speech or a specialized language that few have learned, pull the curtain back and put on full display this creature we call God.
It's a simple request.....put up or shut up.
movingiron88
Member
You miss the point.
How arrogant and naive to think you and only you knows the answer. Everyone should believe and buy into what you think. Because you and only you are right.
No one knows the answer to something for which there is "ABSOLUTELY NO DATA". That's the point.
I have no problem at all saying "I don't know".
A Christian or Muslim can't say "I don't know" how the world started. Their theology is built from the stories in their texts, if they question their texts the entire foundation of their beliefs and dogma falls apart.
Christians and Muslims in particular feel the need to force or push their religion on others. The gospel only spreads when you send out people to spread the so called "good news".
I've never stood on a street corner with a megaphone like a crazy man preaching the gospel. I've never wanted to threaten someone with death if they don't convert or stay in their Islamic faith.
I've never been a parent in a position of authority forcing religion on my kid, telling them you will believe or act like you believe what I believe. This is all too common. How do I know, because I grew up under that tyrannical horseshit.
When we see powerful politicians invoke God all the time, when they attach their ideas to the almighty in an act of pandering to their base. This is damn fucking scary shit. It tells me that someone with lots of power has the ability to force something on all of us that I never agreed to.
When I attend a government meeting and they tell us to start by bowing our heads to pray....fuck that.
When they want me to stand and recite the pledge under god....fuck that.
Many people in our government think our rights come from a God, that is some damn shaky ground for rights if you ask me, especially when no one has any proof at all.
When a soldier is put in a position where he/she could lose their lives, they are asked to pray, to develop a faith. It's telling them that this life really doesn't matter because you're gonna get a do-over when you get your ass blown off, making it easier for you to be put in positions to accept basically a form of suicide.
You can't disprove a negative. You could make up with anything you want and call it God, you could make it harmless, or you could make it dangerous like the Abrahamic faiths, sadly the the world is mostly under the spell of these Abrahamic death cults and I for one don't want these people in charge of anything, I wouldn't even trust them stocking the shelves of my local grocery store.
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Villain
Member
Nah, you just take almost every single post to evangelize how there ISN’T a God and your disdain for religion. It’s annoying as crap how you turn everything into an anti-religion post. Granted, this specific thread is fine, but you’re really no different, yet you think you are.
movingiron88
Member
Thank you, that is my case and point in a bit shell. Just another guy that knows better then anyone else.
TonyTwoPosts
Member
Almost certainly? Are you absolutely sure?
