2,4-DiNitroPhenol [DNP]

[Heretic]

Credit to the gods that wrote this...

HOW TO NOT FUCK UP DNP:

Since some guys have been playing around and disrespecting DNP and then griping to the forums about the painful results, we need to make this VERY specific and VERY correct so that people won't keep jumping for DNP out of curiosity, or without the willpower they need to operate this respondibly. So here are my experienced guidelines to using it the RIGHT way.

FIRST GUIDLINE: Dosing. Use ONLY 200mg a day for the first four days. I don't care that you don't "feel" anything yet and you wanna bump it up. DNP accumulates in the body, and not "feeling" something means NOTHING. It's there, and it's working (the effect on metabolism begins within two hours of the first dose!). Four days will let you test your tolerance: do you have an allergy? Does it give you a rash? etc.
Only after those four days do you bump it up, by 200mg a day. The average dose is 400-600/day, and more than that gets a little severe. A full gram is the highest dose I've heard anyone use. I've used that much, and it's hell. I like to stay around 600 a day, which is HOT but safe and effective. Take caps even hours apart through the day, ending about 4-5 PM.

SECOND GUIDLINE...How to eat on DNP. This is purely personal experience, because some guys like to carb-deplete *before* using DNP (then eat carbs as usual while on), and other guys like a low-carb approach throughout. Both are fine. Using DNP is the only time that fructose is a desireable cutting carb, because it keeps the liver replentished. That reduces lethargy and spares muscle.
Be aware that eating high-carb foods WILL increase the heat sensation within an hour, and last about 2 hours. That means don't eat carbs before bed unless you want those night sweats to be even WORSE.
Personally, I ate whatever the hell I wanted! IHOP, chinese, fajitas...Yes, I burned hot, but I still lost 1.5 pounds every 2 days. Keep protein HIGH for muscles' sake, and try it yourself.

Foods I suggest including:
Blueberry yogurt. Blueberries are excellent antioxidants, and yogurt cultures help with digestive function, gas, and stool consistency (disgustingly soft stools are common during DNP).
Oregano-based foods. Oregano is perhaps one of the most potent antioxidants around,a nd one spoonful counts as a vegetable serving. See this article
Pineapple - I've found that pineapple helps alleviate those "DNP Blues". The fructose helps, and pineapple enzymes aid in protein digestion.
V8 - one 12-ounce can supplies six servings of veggies, concentrated as an excellent source of antioxidants, lycopene, and recovery of electrolytes.
Oatmeal - high-fiber foods are necessary. You'll find out why around, oh, day 5 or so. Trust me.


THIRD GUIDELINE...Supplements and DNP. I suggest:
ECA - DNP is not a stimulant. To keep energy high and aid in fat loss, use an ECA. Some advisors suggest that regular ephedrine is preferable to norephedrine because of the more direct "hit" of energy.
Prohormones - perfectly fine on DNP. I used 1-AD just to help keep strength and muscle up, and it worked fine. No problems here. You won't GROW muscle on DNP, but it'll help with strength and protection.
Obvious stuff - multivitamin, ZMA, etc.
Biotest PowerDrive - No, I'm not pimping Biotest. But PowerDrive is an excellent pre-workout mixture that actually works. Plus it's low-carb (only 15 calories total), so it won't cause carb-heat in the middle of your workout.

Antioxidants - I'm giving my own personal list, and why I use them:
Alpha Lipoic Acid - aids in fat management and blood sugar, and an excellent antioxidant.
Grape seed extract
Syntrax Radox
Green Tea
Inositol - mood enhancement, antioxidant, and muscle support. 1 gram/3x day
Ellagic acid - protects cell DNA/RNA from damage by free radicals, and may even atack cancerous cells. 400mg/twice a day
Fruit antioxidants - beyond-a-century's powder of high-potency natural fruit anti's. 1 gram, 2-3x day.
Trimethylglyceine - antioxidant, helps move fat and blood lipids into the liver and out of the body. 500mg, 2x day.
Vitamins E and C

Supplements NOT to use:
Any medications that suppress energy. No allergy meds, antidepressants, muscle relaxers, or beta blockers. DNP will have you low as it is; don't worsen your body's energy by taking something that suppresses you further.

DRUGS - Sheesh, you'd think I wouldn't have to mention this, but two idiots in particular (right here on this forum) recently affirmed that some people still just don't get it. NO alcohol (not even "moderate"), NO ecstasy, NO GHB, etc. If you don't have the willpower to forego these habits, DNP is not for you.

Syntrax Swole - a personal discovery. I tried Swole while on DNP...once. Two hours of hell, feeling inside-out.

FOURTH GUIDELINE...working out on DNP. Keep lifting short, 30-40 minutes. DNP works very well, causing your body to use 150% or more the calories per action you'd normally use. That means DON'T try to repeat your usual workouts. Drop to moderate weights, 8-12 reps, not to failure, and with plenty of walking rest between sets. You are NOT going to grow muscle on DNP, so don't use your usual heavy routine. Since DNP can cause light-headedness and heat dizzyness, you have my permission to skip squats in favor of leg presses this time.

Cardio is a controversial one. My advice - do NOT do cardio on high doses of DNP (600mg or more). It's dangerous and counterproductive. Below that amount, some cardio is fine, but keep it to 20 minutes and not at full-gallop. Remember, DNP will drain water from your quickly, causing you to leech out minerals, vitamins, and salts. Don't overdo it.

During exercise, consume at least 1 liter of water per 30 minutes of work, whether you're thirsty or not. DNP is evil in the way it blunts thirst, while at the same time doing the cruel trick of bloating your body with water WHILE dehydrating you from water in your organs. MAKE yourself drink. Always folllow DNP exercise with antioxidants, carbs, and this is a good time to use your multivitamin.

Don't feel embarrassed about poor workouts. Just this morjning I did a workout with a whopping nine sets (wimp!) before calling it quits. Listen to your body, and let it tell you when enough's enough; don't guage workouts by what you *usually* can do otherwise.

Here's my research. This is AMAZING! Not only has not a single test found it to be carcinogenic, but test after tyest after test find that DNP actually ATTACKS cancer cells, and helps anti-cancer medications work better, and helps anti-leukemia medications work without destroying cell DNA, and suppresses tumor growth by 20-50%. The summaries are all right here, friends. Karma me up!

DNP is Ames negative, and does not promote tumors. See for yourself at http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/dinitrop.html (2,4-Dinitrophenol | Technology Transfer Network Air Toxics Web site | US EPA) reports on health risks. While there have not been human studies, animal studies found no cancers caused by DNP administration. It is considered a toxin because it causes nausea, sweating, and weight loss.

Cyberiron.com reports on halth risks from external exposue. In other words, don?t get it in your eyes, or on your skin if you?re allergic. Pretty elementary stuff.

http://www.ebec2000.com/abstracts/056.htm This animal study documents a 64% increase in metabolism. "These findings confirm that DNP effectively increases metabolic rate..." Duh.

Biosource A PDF file about an antidote to DNP.

http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.es/...glesa/cap13.htm finds that DNP did not activate liver enzymes (MAT) associated with liver damage

"Comparative study of toxicity of 4-nitrophenol and 2,4-dinitrophenol in newborn and young rats." Koizumi M, Yamamoto Y, Ito Y, Takano M, Enami T, Kamata E, Hasegawa R. Division of Risk Assessment, National Institute of Health Sciences, 1-18-1 Kamiyoga, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo 158-8501, Japan. This study found that DNP can induce death in overdosed amounts, but that up to that point no toxicity was evident, nor were there any abnormalities in physical development.

"Phenol toxicity and conjugation in human colonic epithelial cells." Pedersen G, Brynskov J, Saermark T. Dept of Medical Gastroenterology, Herlev University Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark.. This study found that DNP has a toxic effect on cells of the colon, with "toxic" defined in two ways: first, it interfered with metabolism (this we know?it?s the intended effect of DNP users!) and second, it interfered with bowel inflammation (not a health risk. This is caused by osmotic effect, with the worst results being softened stools and gas).

"Mechanisms of bacterial resistance to macrolide antibiotics." Nakajima Y. Division of Microbiology, Hokkaido College of Pharmacy, 7-1 Katsuraoka-cho, Otaru, Hokkaido 047-0264, Japan. This study found that antibiotic-resistant bacteria could be thwarted with DNP. "the extent of the accumulated drug in a resistant cell increases as much as that in a susceptible cell in the presence of an uncoupling agent such as?2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP)."

"Absence of Crabtree effect in human melanoma cells adapted to growth at low pH: reversal by respiratory inhibitors." Burd R, Wachsberger PR, Biaglow JE, Wahl ML, Lee I, Leeper DB. Departments of Radiation Oncology, Kimmel Cancer Center, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107, USA. Check this out?DNP actually helps make melanoma tumors easier to attack by increasing ratio of oxygen consumption to lactic acid production, while glycolysis remains the same. "Therefore, tumor acute acidification and oxygenation can be achieved by exposure?"


"New insights in the cellular processing of platinum antitumor compounds, using fluorophore-labeled platinum complexes and digital fluorescence microscopy."
Molenaar C, Teuben JM, Heetebrij RJ, Tanke HJ, Reedijk J. Department of Molecular Cell Biology, Leiden University Medical Centre, The Netherlands. DNP is used as a control in tests of antitumor cells because it does NOT bind to cell DNA, nor promote tumors, yet its staining abilities enable tracking of the uptake of antitumor drugs.

Specific inhibition of breast cancer cells by antisense poly-DNP-oligoribonucleotides and targeted apoptosis." Ru K, Taub ML, Wang JH. Department of Biochemistry, State University of New York, Buffalo 14260-3000, USA Are you ready for this? DNP actually INHIBITS (!!!) breast cancers! Yes, not only does it NOT promote cancers, it?s being recognized as a cancer-fighter/blocker. "Two membrane-permeable and RNase-resistant antisense poly-2'-O-(2,4-dinitrophenyl)-oligoribonucleotides (poly-DNP-RNAs) have been synthesized as inhibitors of human breast cancer?fluorescence assay indicates that the targeted antisense inhibition by poly-DNP-RNAs leads to apoptosis of SK-Br-3 cells but does not affect nontumorigenic MCF-10A cells. The control poly-DNP-RNAs with random or sense nucleotide sequence are completely inactive." Plain English? DNP can be synthesized as an anti-cancer compound, because tests show that it blocks mutagens but does NOT affect non-mutagenic (healthy) cells, and has no RNA effects on them.

"Heat shock protein induction by certain chemical stressors is correlated with their cytotoxicity, lipophilicity and protein-denaturing capacity." Neuhaus-Steinmetz U, Rensing L. Institute of Cell Biology, Biochemistry and Biotechnology, NW II University of Bremen, Germany. The thermic effect of DNP induces protein synthesis (heat shock protein, or HSP, synthesis). In fact, it?s quite GOOD at it: "ASA, DNP and CCCP induced HSP at lower concentrations than substances with a similar lipophilicity?"

"Comparative effects of the metabolic inhibitors 2,4-dinitrophenol and iodoacetate on mouse neuroblastoma cells in vitro." Andres MI, Repetto G, Sanz P, Repetto M.
National Institute of Toxicology, Seville, Spain. In this study, DNP?s observed effect was an increase in metabolism (duh!), while the other toxins compared to it had harmful in vitro effects but no increase in metabolism.

"Inhibition of uncoupled respiration in tumor cells. A possible role of mitochondrial Ca2+ efflux." Gabai VL.Medical Radiology Research Center, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Obninsk. DNP not only does not cause tumors, but it inhibited their respiration by 20-25% compared to controls.

"Amsacrine-induced lesions in DNA and their modulation by novobiocin and 2,4-dinitrophenol." Shibuya ML, Buddenbaum WE, Don AL, Utsumi H, Suciu D, Kosaka T, Elkind MM. Department of Radiology and Radiation Biology, Colorado State University, Fort Collins 80523. In this study, researchers found that DNP abrogates?or disrupts?cytotoxicity in hamsters (using cancerous cells). They expected to find that DNP would interfere with anticancer treatments, but instead found that DNP increased their effects. They state, though, that they cannot claim a proven effect of DNP on anticancer treatments yet, although they do agree that treatment with DNP actually enhanced the effects of the DNA regenerative therapy of anticancer chemotherapy.

"Induction of endonucleolytic DNA cleavage in human acute myelogenous leukemia cells by etoposide, camptothecin, and other cytotoxic anticancer drugs: a cautionary note." Kaufmann SH. Oncology Center, Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, Maryland 21205. The authors warn that certain anti-leukemia drugs resulted in "extensive DNA degradation." BUT (good ol? DNP to the rescue!), "Preincubation with dinitrophenol abolished the effect?"

"[Dependence of the nature of the action of metabolic inhibitors on ribosomal RNA synthesis in Ehrlich ascites carcinoma cells on cell integrity]" [Article in Russian] Akhlynina TV, Buzhurina IM, Panov MA, Rozovskaia IA, Chernaia NG. DNP actually inhibits the synthesis of RNA in carcinoma cells. In other words, it helps cancerous cells commit suicide by neutering themselves. "Ribosomal RNA (rRNA) synthesis in the intact Ehrlich ascite carcinoma cells is selectively inhibited by papaverin (ED50 = 0.01 mM), 2,4-dinitrophenol (DPN; ED50 = 5 microM), and actinomycin D (ED50 = 0.1 microgram/ml)."

"Autocatabolism of surface macromolecules shed by human melanoma cells." Bystryn JC, Perlstein J. Cancer Res 1982 Jun;42(6):2232-7. This study finds that DNP helps melanoma cells die (autocatabolize) while other cells are unaffected.

http://www.geocities.com/byggdegstor/dnpforside - tons of research, including medical studies. Excerpts:

DNP does not cause liver damage: "Their analyses demonstrate, beyond a doubt, that the liver does not suffer any damage in the course of dinitro treatment." (Biological Study of Dinitro Drugs in Humans By Dr. Jacques Bell. Bell, Jacques. 1939. Etude biologique des produits dinitres chez l'homme. Medecine. 19:749-54. Translation ? 1996 Robert Ames)

Also: "Experimental studies on animals do not show toxic effects of dinitrophenol on the kidney. Anatomical-pathological examinations of animals, even those which died from a massive dose of dinitrophenol, do not reveal any important anatomical changes, except a small degree of cytolysis. Clinical documents are not abundant, but, on the whole, do not seem to demonstrate that dinitrophenol is toxic for the kidneys."

"Dinitrophenol has almost no action on the blood cholesterol. (Grant and Schube)."

"it doesn't seem that dinitrophenol at usual clinical doses is likely to harm the kidneys."

"Dinitrophenol is remarkable for its absence of effect on the cardio-vascular system...dinitrophenol is absolutely devoid of toxicity for the heart."

"Dinitrophenol does not attack cell tissue albumin and does not determine the fat loss to the expense of the muscles, contrary to thyroxine."

"dinitrophenol offers this precious advantage that the cessation of its use at the slightest appearance of signs indicating an imminence of intoxication results immediately in the arrest of those symptoms." (Professor Pouchet)."


Interestingly, one medical theory on a health ADVANTAGE of DNP is that the slight increase in thermogenic temperature simulates the fever a body induces during a viral attack. The body increases itsheat to protect organs but kill viruses, and some theorize that DNP can do the same thing, thus killing viruses in the body. In this mechanism, DNP may have an immune-enhancing effect.

 

[Conciliator]

Also,I'd love to hear your reasoning behind why you think creatine,beta alanine,arginine and cit. mal. would not hinder fat loss from DNP.I'd really like to run creatine and BA (or CM,depending what I have lying around) while on D to stave offsome of the meh-ish drop in work capacity.There was some good discussion on this on M&M a couple years ago.VirtualCyber laid out a reasonable arguement for the use of ATP precursors while on DNP while Loki isad otherwse with a sound approach taken.A bit of a tough call so I decided on Phenogen in place of creatine 9these two are certainly.

It doesn’t look like Loki provided any support for his position. I completely agree with VirtualCyber. How would creatine hinder fat loss while on DNP? I think the reasoning usually goes that "creatine creates ATP" while "DNP depletes ATP," therefore they oppose each other and taking creatine will be counterproductive. But this is a gross misunderstanding of what's going on.

First, you have to understand that creatine is not an energy source, but an energy buffer. Creatine contains no energy, zero calories. In its uncharged state, you have plain creatine. In its high-energy state, the creatine has been phosphorylated into phosphocreatine (PCr). But that takes energy. When ATP levels are low and ADP levels rise, PCr provides a phosphate group to recharge ADP to ATP. But this doesn't mean that creatine is hindering fat loss by recharging ADP into ATP. Why? Because creatine itself needs to be recharged into PCr before it can do this again. And how does that happen? Through oxdiative phosphorylation, though the burning of fatty acids and glucose. Oxidative phosphorylation produces ATP, but really ends when creatine kinase uses that ATP to phosphorylate (or recharge) creatine into PCr. When PCr recharges ADP into ATP, the PCr is hydrolyzed into low energy creatine. For the creatine to be recharged, energy is obtained from oxidative phosphorylation, which DNP makes less efficient. Creatine is not bypassing the inefficiency that DNP creates, it relies on the energy that DNP makes harder to produce. For PCr to be able to recharge ADP into ATP, creatine must first be recharged into PCr, and that takes energy from oxdidative phosphorlyation (which DNP will make less efficient). Creatine doesn't oppose DNP. DNP opposes the production of mitochondrial ATP, which, after the fact, creatine kinase uses to recharge creatine into PCr. Basically, the energy that creatine gains, allowing it to recharge ADP into ATP, comes from oxidative phosphorlyation, which IS the process that DNP makes less efficent. There is no opposition.

I'm not sure how clear that is. Maybe an analogy would help. Think of oxdiative phosphorylation as a refinery, as the process by which crude oil (fats and glucose) js refined into usable gasoline (ATP). You can think of the engine of your car, or the location where the gas is consumed, as the muscles and other cells that are utilizing ATP and producing work. Assume that you have a mini refinery built into your car. You can provide it with crude oil, and it will produce gas. However, it can't produce gas at a very fast rate. If you had no fuel tank, perhaps the refinery could only produce enough gas for you to go 45 mph. That would be like relying solely on the aerobic system, like walking or jogging at a slow pace. However, we need to be able to drive faster. We need an energy buffer. We need a tank that can get filled up. You can think of the phosphocreatine system as a special tank that holds only PCr. Right after gas is produced from the refinery, it gets converted from the high-energy molecule ATP into high-energy PCr. This PCr then fills the tank. At the engine, the opposite happens. PCr recharges ADP into ATP, which the engine can run on. The PCr tank allows us to drive at a high speed for a short period of time (performing high intensity activity), since we have an energy reserve. As you can see, though, increasing the size of the tank doesn't change energy demands or the amount of crude that must first be refined into gasoline to get it filled. That still must occur, it's just that energy can build up in the tank in the form of PCr. Supplementing with creatine and increasing the size of the tank doesn't provide any actual energy that the engine can use instead of crude. Rather, crude (fatty acids and glucose) still has to be processed in the refinery to produce gasoline (ATP), which can then charge creatine into PCr and fill the tank.

DNP makes the refinery less efficient. It makes it so more crude is required to produce the same amount of gas as before. Even though the body adapts to the inefficiency by putting more crude into the refinery, there's usually still a decrease in gas production compared to when the refinery is functioning normally. This is where the idea comes that DNP "depletes ATP." Really though, DNP isn't doing anything to existing ATP. It simply might decrease the rate at which ATP is produced, lowering ATP levels (despite adaptations to prevent that from happening to a large extent). However, what DNP is really doing, the reason why it works, is that it makes the refinery less efficient, requiring more crude to be used (and wasted). Taking creatine does nothing to oppose that. It just increases the size of the tank. A larger tank will still take more crude to get filled if the refinery is inefficient. The tank size has no bearing on the inefficiency. Hopefully, that clears things up. I think the primary cause for confusion is that people think creatine is an energy source, instead of an energy buffer. If you only focus on how PCr can recharge ADP into ATP, then you're ignoring that to produce PCr in the first place, fats and glucose need to be oxidized for energy. Regardless of how much creatine is present, taking DNP makes that oxidation less efficient.

Hope that helps,
Conciliator

 

[NYHomeboy]

wow,.. conc knows his shit. ever going to enlighten us as to what your actual profession is?

 

[Colin]

It doesnt look like Loki provided any support for his position. I completely agree with VirtualCyber. How would creatine hinder fat loss while on DNP? I think the reasoning usually goes that "creatine creates ATP" while "DNP depletes ATP," therefore they oppose each other and taking creatine will be counterproductive. But this is a gross misunderstanding of what's going on.

First, you have to understand that creatine is not an energy source, but an energy buffer. Creatine contains no energy, zero calories. In its uncharged state, you have plain creatine. In its high-energy state, the creatine has been phosphorylated into phosphocreatine (PCr). But that takes energy. When ATP levels are low and ADP levels rise, PCr provides a phosphate group to recharge ADP to ATP. But this doesn't mean that creatine is hindering fat loss by recharging ADP into ATP. Why? Because creatine itself needs to be recharged into PCr before it can do this again. And how does that happen? Through oxdiative phosphorylation, though the burning of fatty acids and glucose. Oxidative phosphorylation produces ATP, but really ends when creatine kinase uses that ATP to phosphorylate (or recharge) creatine into PCr. When PCr recharges ADP into ATP, the PCr is hydrolyzed into low energy creatine. For the creatine to be recharged, energy is obtained from oxidative phosphorylation, which DNP makes less efficient. Creatine is not bypassing the inefficiency that DNP creates, it relies on the energy that DNP makes harder to produce. For PCr to be able to recharge ADP into ATP, creatine must first be recharged into PCr, and that takes energy from oxdidative phosphorlyation (which DNP will make less efficient). Creatine doesn't oppose DNP. DNP opposes the production of mitochondrial ATP, which, after the fact, creatine kinase uses to recharge creatine into PCr. Basically, the energy that creatine gains, allowing it to recharge ADP into ATP, comes from oxidative phosphorlyation, which IS the process that DNP makes less efficent. There is no opposition.

I'm not sure how clear that is. Maybe an analogy would help. Think of oxdiative phosphorylation as a refinery, as the process by which crude oil (fats and glucose) js refined into usable gasoline (ATP). You can think of the engine of your car, or the location where the gas is consumed, as the muscles and other cells that are utilizing ATP and producing work. Assume that you have a mini refinery built into your car. You can provide it with crude oil, and it will produce gas. However, it can't produce gas at a very fast rate. If you had no fuel tank, perhaps the refinery could only produce enough gas for you to go 45 mph. That would be like relying solely on the aerobic system, like walking or jogging at a slow pace. However, we need to be able to drive faster. We need an energy buffer. We need a tank that can get filled up. You can think of the phosphocreatine system as a special tank that holds only PCr. Right after gas is produced from the refinery, it gets converted from the high-energy molecule ATP into high-energy PCr. This PCr then fills the tank. At the engine, the opposite happens. PCr recharges ADP into ATP, which the engine can run on. The PCr tank allows us to drive at a high speed for a short period of time (performing high intensity activity), since we have an energy reserve. As you can see, though, increasing the size of the tank doesn't change energy demands or the amount of crude that must first be refined into gasoline to get it filled. That still must occur, it's just that energy can build up in the tank in the form of PCr. Supplementing with creatine and increasing the size of the tank doesn't provide any actual energy that the engine can use instead of crude. Rather, crude (fatty acids and glucose) still has to be processed in the refinery to produce gasoline (ATP), which can then charge creatine into PCr and fill the tank.

DNP makes the refinery less efficient. It makes it so more crude is required to produce the same amount of gas as before. Even though the body adapts to the inefficiency by putting more crude into the refinery, there's usually still a decrease in gas production compared to when the refinery is functioning normally. This is where the idea comes that DNP "depletes ATP." Really though, DNP isn't doing anything to existing ATP. It simply might decrease the rate at which ATP is produced, lowering ATP levels (despite adaptations to prevent that from happening to a large extent). However, what DNP is really doing, the reason why it works, is that it makes the refinery less efficient, requiring more crude to be used (and wasted). Taking creatine does nothing to oppose that. It just increases the size of the tank. A larger tank will still take more crude to get filled if the refinery is inefficient. The tank size has no bearing on the inefficiency. Hopefully, that clears things up. I think the primary cause for confusion is that people think creatine is an energy source, instead of an energy buffer. If you only focus on how PCr can recharge ADP into ATP, then you're ignoring that to produce PCr in the first place, fats and glucose need to be oxidized for energy. Regardless of how much creatine is present, taking DNP makes that oxidation less efficient.

Hope that helps,
Conciliator

Excellent post,this settles things nicely.I'll concede that I was swept up by the bollocks associated with creatine reducing the efficacy of DNP via counteraction.

Since I started back up on DNP last month I've actually been doing a good deal of reading on it,I was simply satisfied with the fat loss it conferred with my first time around.So,in addition to the debt owed to you for the extensive breakdown above,I have your general manner WRT DNP as the cause of my newfound inquisitiveness towards this subject.

Just let me know if there are any Avant Labs/Research supplements you'd like to try and I'll have them sent your way.

Also,I sent you an email yesterday via my bigredchief@safe-mail.net account so please get back to me on it when you have the extra time.

 

[bellerose]

wow,.. conc knows his shit. ever going to enlighten us as to what your actual profession is?

He is a mad scientist by night and an undercover policeman by day

I kid.

This entire time while on DNP, I haven't smoked a single cigarette. I am wondering, however - would it be safe to? I don't want to spontaneously combust or anything like that.

 

[NYHomeboy]

Conc, do you feel that these DNP "deaths" that occur in forums on occasion are often fabricated? (Except for the elitefitness one which is well-documented by the media) I heard about one just the other day -- coincidentally, right as buzz about DNP began and admins were upset that people were using the drug.

After using DNP extensively for the last 2 years, I can honestly say that I feel safer on it than any other drug, including ephedrine... At 800mg or less and constant temperature monitoring (I've tried various doses... 400-600 is my sweet spot), the dose I've taken for the last 2 years on and off, I can say that I feel even a high dosage is safe. (WARNING: does NOT mean that it's safe for everyone as it's highly individual!)

Then again I probably just respond very well to DNP.

 

[Colin]

Nicotine itself doesn't present any problems with DNP,smoking while on DNP would just make you feel like shit as your cardiovascular sytem is already being taxed via DNP.

FWIWI,'ve been using a nicotine patch for the last 1.5 months while on DNP as I recently quit smoking and nicotine is a decent anorectic.Dreams while on the patch are extremely vivid,to say the least,it's worth the buck per day (ebay prices) just for this IMO.

You might as well use this to drop smoking,doing otherwise is just stupid WRT health and body composition.I smoked a pack of ulfiltered Lucky Strikes,a pack a day on average,for the better part of the last 2 years so no offense is implied.

He is a mad scientist by night and an undercover policeman by day

I kid.

This entire time while on DNP, I haven't smoked a single cigarette. I am wondering, however - would it be safe to? I don't want to spontaneously combust or anything like that.

 

[marigold5]

Hi again folks

I've just got back from my christmas hols to find my dnp powder has arrived

I have a couple of questions, I hope its ok to ask here - not sure if I should start a new thread??

Anyhow her goes - I ordered 50g of crystal dnp, was told it was the best stuff from Germany not China and that it came with a cercificate of analysis (or something??)

I received a 35gram bag of a very deep yellow powder - was double wrapped in 2 sandwich bags! this has stained my fingers yellow just opening the bag

I also received 2 x 12gram bags of a powder but this is paler in colour - it almost looks the same colour & constistency as milk thistle powder, its a bit denser and a lot paler in colour and does not stain anywhere near as much?

I've emailed them to ask why I have received this and had a reply in broken english

"We sent you 2 types of DNP. One of them is ready to use. (It is
sample from us to help you to arrange the consisteny). Other ones
are pure and volatile. You should dilute with hydrolized flour or
starch. They are very dense. Do not forget to use mouth mask."


I then emailed again asking them to be more specific and to confirm which was which and got this reply

"Diluted package we sent you is the point that you have to reach.
This means that this is the reference point. Otherwise pure DNP is
pressed raw material so in order to use this dnp you should do one
thing.
Add 18g starch to 37g pure DNP and let them take the air for 24
hours. After that you can use it as a solute.
Then if you want to produce 200mg/cap, you should add dnp and
starch according to size of the capsule. Generally use "0" capsule.
This means that one capsule can approximately take 465mg. So 265mg
starch and 200mg dnp have to be included. If you want to produce
100caps, you can calculate and produce..."


The whole idea of me doing this myself was so I could be accurate and know exactly what doseages I was taking

I guess I'll email again asking about the 2 smaller bags wich I guess are the already mixed with corn starch samples to check - Im guessing that this is what I end up with if I add 18gram cornstarch to the other pure dnp and leave it 24 hours - I will then have 50g of the same as the 2 smaller bags?

If this is the case if I want to make 200mg caps I'll need to add aprox 275mg of the powder to get the 200mg of dnp?

Also as I want to put milk thistle, green tea powder, etc into the caps and not fill them with corn starch could I not just ad 200mg of the pure stuff, no corn starch at all but just some other powder I actually want to take instead of the cornstarch??

I'm really sorry if this is a long rambling post & its confusing but I've never capped my own dnp before so more experienced opinions would be great.

Thanks again for all your help

p.s I know we are not sposed to talk about sourcing etc but I'm interested to know if other people get there powder from the same place as I did & if so how they've found the quality etc? maybe pm me or something if thats ok??

 

[marigold5]

Just to make it a little clearer - if its not ok for me to just cap the pure dnp without adding the cornstarch as a filler then is there any reason why I couldn't add 15g of milk thistle instead as this is actually usefull where as cornstarch serves no purpose at all as far as Ican make out

[)] thanks

 

[LEX-DRAGUNOV]

hey Conciliator i have missed your posting over at BB.com. glad i found you here.

anyways i read a thread where somone is doing week long cycles starting at 600mg right out of the gate.

my question is if you have done many cycles and you know what dose your comfortable with can you start at a higher dose?

 

[Colin]

hey Conciliator i have missed your posting over at BB.com. glad i found you here.

anyways i read a thread where somone is doing week long cycles starting at 600mg right out of the gate.

my question is if you have done many cycles and you know what dose your comfortable with can you start at a higher dose?

Yes.

FWIW,I've run a couple dozen cycles of DNP,at least,and have had no problems with starting at 600mg a day.

 

[Colin]

Hi again folks

I've just got back from my christmas hols to find my dnp powder has arrived

I have a couple of questions, I hope its ok to ask here - not sure if I should start a new thread??

Anyhow her goes - I ordered 50g of crystal dnp, was told it was the best stuff from Germany not China and that it came with a cercificate of analysis (or something??)

I received a 35gram bag of a very deep yellow powder - was double wrapped in 2 sandwich bags! this has stained my fingers yellow just opening the bag

I also received 2 x 12gram bags of a powder but this is paler in colour - it almost looks the same colour & constistency as milk thistle powder, its a bit denser and a lot paler in colour and does not stain anywhere near as much?

I've emailed them to ask why I have received this and had a reply in broken english

"We sent you 2 types of DNP. One of them is ready to use. (It is
sample from us to help you to arrange the consisteny). Other ones
are pure and volatile. You should dilute with hydrolized flour or
starch. They are very dense. Do not forget to use mouth mask."


I then emailed again asking them to be more specific and to confirm which was which and got this reply

"Diluted package we sent you is the point that you have to reach.
This means that this is the reference point. Otherwise pure DNP is
pressed raw material so in order to use this dnp you should do one
thing.
Add 18g starch to 37g pure DNP and let them take the air for 24
hours. After that you can use it as a solute.
Then if you want to produce 200mg/cap, you should add dnp and
starch according to size of the capsule. Generally use "0" capsule.
This means that one capsule can approximately take 465mg. So 265mg
starch and 200mg dnp have to be included. If you want to produce
100caps, you can calculate and produce..."


The whole idea of me doing this myself was so I could be accurate and know exactly what doseages I was taking

I guess I'll email again asking about the 2 smaller bags wich I guess are the already mixed with corn starch samples to check - Im guessing that this is what I end up with if I add 18gram cornstarch to the other pure dnp and leave it 24 hours - I will then have 50g of the same as the 2 smaller bags?

If this is the case if I want to make 200mg caps I'll need to add aprox 275mg of the powder to get the 200mg of dnp?

Also as I want to put milk thistle, green tea powder, etc into the caps and not fill them with corn starch could I not just ad 200mg of the pure stuff, no corn starch at all but just some other powder I actually want to take instead of the cornstarch??

I'm really sorry if this is a long rambling post & its confusing but I've never capped my own dnp before so more experienced opinions would be great.

Thanks again for all your help

p.s I know we are not sposed to talk about sourcing etc but I'm interested to know if other people get there powder from the same place as I did & if so how they've found the quality etc? maybe pm me or something if thats ok??

To clarify,crstal DNP only cantains 750mg of DNP per gram of powder,IOW it is 75% active DNP.So when calculating dosage of the crystal variety,you must subtract 25% from the end figure,this will be the amount of DNP you are actually consuming.

Their line about pure DNP being volatile and needs baking soda mixed in is nonsense.You want DNP to be as pure as possible e.g.my previous source was selling DNP assayed at 90% so this leaves 10% for contaminants.I went through the bulk of that DNP at 550mg per day,did a couple stints at 600 with much discomfort/body heat but I was literally dropping sweat all day long when I did a seperate cycle at 750mg.I used around 75 grams of this DNP over the course of 1.5 years and traded the remainder off for supplements,had no health problems while on or afterwards.But I digress a bit too much,my apologies for any such redundancy.....

It is somewhat difficult to grasp what the Russions are actually saying because of the language barrier.

As they state the 2 12 gram bags are "pure and volitile" but are a shade of yellow or greyi-ish yellow (like milk thistle powder) while the 35 gram bag you handled was pure yellow I would say that the 35 gram is the the undiluted DNP,which is preferable.

It seems like you have 35 grams of crystal DNP.The other 24 grams of powder is mixed with baking soda/corn starch.This 24 grams of powder is crystal DNP mixed with corn starch.According to the Russians,it is mixed at a ratio of 200mg crystal DNP and 265mg corn starch so roughly it's 40% crystal DNP and 60% useless corn starch.

Regarding the capping and dosing the 2 smaller bags of the already mixed crystal DNP & corn starch,I offer the following advice.For every 465mg of this powder that you use,it will amount to 150mg of DNP,considering that the 200% crystal is not pure DNP and 25% needs to be deducted in order to have the real deal Holyfield.

200mg of the 35 gram powder bag is the equivelent of 465mg of the other two bags,both of these figures will yield 150mg of DNP.

I am sending you a PM in order to clarify a questn I have regarding the Russian product,my take on what you have may very well be incorrect,I need to know more about their process in order to help you dose the powder.

Do not cap the milk thistle or whatever else along with the DNP,caps can only hold so much.Milk thistle is not needed anyway as DNP is not a harsh compound WRT the liver.

Sesamin provides hepaprotection and also helps with fat oxidation,that is what I suggest in place of milk thistle.Get it in bulk liquid form,a 2 month supply runs around $20,quite inexpensive.Below are some relevant articles on Sesathin (sesamin).I'm a representative for Avant Research,who produces Sesathin,but I would suggest going with Scivation's Sesamin as they have it in bulk form at a fraction of our capped prices.Capped is much more convient of course and the taste of the liquid is pretty awful.Another downside with Scivation's product is the oral dosing syringe,which breaks very easily.With careful usage I've broken several of them.You get what you pay for,IOW.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/node/326 (Introducing SesaThin | Mind and Muscle)

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/node/469 (New SesaThin Write-Up | Mind and Muscle)

 

[marigold5]

Hey Colin

I've answered your pm.

Thanks for the above info - I'm very interested in the sesamin, have been trying to get some for ages but it seems it's not so easy to get hold of in the UK

I buy most of my supps from myprotein.co.uk - The Leading Online Manufacturer & Supplier of Sports and Nutritional Supplements they sell it but have not had it in stock for 5 months now!

Have looked at other places but its usually mixed with other oils etc & is kind of expensive - I've been waiting for MP to get it back in.

could you reccomend a US based place that woukd ship to UK? Theres a couple of other things I'm after also that we can't buy in the UK but you can in the US - crazy world eh

Cheers

 

[Colin]

I'm not sure about that but I can make you an offer,either way.

I can have bottles shipped to you,directly from Avant's warehouse in the US.Feel free to PM me for anything Avant wise,I'm an Avant Research board representative so I can set you up with Avant supps below online prices.

Hey Colin

I've answered your pm.

Thanks for the above info - I'm very interested in the sesamin, have been trying to get some for ages but it seems it's not so easy to get hold of in the UK

I buy most of my supps from myprotein.co.uk - The Leading Online Manufacturer & Supplier of Sports and Nutritional Supplements they sell it but have not had it in stock for 5 months now!

Have looked at other places but its usually mixed with other oils etc & is kind of expensive - I've been waiting for MP to get it back in.

could you reccomend a US based place that woukd ship to UK? Theres a couple of other things I'm after also that we can't buy in the UK but you can in the US - crazy world eh

Cheers

 

[Colin]

It's been established that creatine,beta alanine et.al. can be used while on DNP with no drop in efficacy of any of the forementioned.

Thanks again to Conciliator for the well drafted post of his clarifying this issue.

Given that oxandrolone can be thought of a jacked up form of creatine (sorry,it's late and I'm barely coherent) what with all of its effects on jacking up ATP production.....but I'm sure I'm painting a poor picture here and am surely missing something in the translation.

In short,can oxandrolone be run while on DNP?

PS
My apologies,coming in from a night out and arsefaced from Guinness doesn't make for ideal forum posting conditions.

 

[MANWHORE]

I know many don't like Animal because of his shitty attitude ... Personally I don't either but go over there and find out all you need about DNP. It's harmless just like EPO.

Just stay hydrated and you will be fine ...

As far as side effects that are bad like death but as far as lethargy go to his article or book ..
haven't been around for a while so I for ...

I think it's the DNP manual but it's very good ..

So how is everyone?

 

[Colin]

I know many don't like Animal because of his shitty attitude ... Personally I don't either but go over there and find out all you need about DNP. It's harmless just like EPO.

Just stay hydrated and you will be fine ...

As far as side effects that are bad like death but as far as lethargy go to his article or book ..
haven't been around for a while so I for ...

I think it's the DNP manual but it's very good ..

So how is everyone?

Please post a URL to this article,I'm interested.

 

[MANWHORE]

Please post a URL to this article,I'm interested.

I am back and forth working on my business...

Private message me and I will send you to it..
You must be new not to have heard of this.

No offence of course like I never do

I used DNP years ago from a good guy who stopped making or rather capping cause it was
such a pain in the ass and it made me tired that was it.

I am also an ectomorph and shouldn't have even tried it

I love Tren and when I can get EQ

 

[Conciliator]

I know many don't like Animal because of his shitty attitude ... Personally I don't either but go over there and find out all you need about DNP. It's harmless just like EPO.

Just stay hydrated and you will be fine...

DNP is not harmless "just like EPO." If you overdose you will die from a fatal hyperthermia, no matter how hydrated you are. The idea that staying hydrated is all you need to do to completely prevent overheating is false.

 

[Colin]

A brief tip on increasing fat loss from DNP,this has worked very well for myself and a few others who've tried it.

Picking up the actives for Avant's Phenogen and making a knockoff + saesamin + PLCAR.

Phenogen knockoff acts as a strong AMPK agonist (compounding DNP's AMPK activation) making for more of a cardio in a pill...not that exercise should be done away with.The PLCAR helps with fat liveration andincreases exercise performance,at least it help offset the drop from DNP+Phenogen.

The GPA can be had at cozmar.com and salvia at nutraplanet.com.Dose 2 grams GPA per day and 500mg salvia m. with 3 meals.GTE on an empty stomach,for 4 weeks.

Drop the Phenogen clone and use creatine mono,beta alanine etc in its place as exercise capacity can take a hit after a month of Phenogen+DNP.

Details can be found here:

Introducing PhenoGen: Spook Knows Fat Loss

This with kcals at 60% maintainance and 2 30 minute training sessions per day (AM was compound exercises with high reps and light weight + minimal rest,squats,deads,pullups,pushups and PM consiting of an easy 30 minute bike session in the PM) had me losing a *pound* of actual fat mass per day.No discernable loss in LBM either,I used 600mg DNP per day for 12 day spurts.

If anyone would like,I can post up exactly why this method of training is preferable e.g.makes the most of DNP's fat loss.Loki over on M&M laid down "teh scziencce" a while back on this and as this thread has been helpful to me,I'd like to do the same in return.

 

[OC Cartel]

A brief tip on increasing fat loss from DNP,this has worked very well for myself and a few others who've tried it.

Picking up the actives for Avant's Phenogen and making a knockoff + saesamin + PLCAR.

Phenogen knockoff acts as a strong AMPK agonist (compounding DNP's AMPK activation) making for more of a cardio in a pill...not that exercise should be done away with.The PLCAR helps with fat liveration andincreases exercise performance,at least it help offset the drop from DNP+Phenogen.

The GPA can be had at cozmar.com and salvia at nutraplanet.com.Dose 2 grams GPA per day and 500mg salvia m. with 3 meals.GTE on an empty stomach,for 4 weeks.

Drop the Phenogen clone and use creatine mono,beta alanine etc in its place as exercise capacity can take a hit after a month of Phenogen+DNP.

Details can be found here:

Introducing PhenoGen: Spook Knows Fat Loss

This with kcals at 60% maintainance and 2 30 minute training sessions per day (AM was compound exercises with high reps and light weight + minimal rest,squats,deads,pullups,pushups and PM consiting of an easy 30 minute bike session in the PM) had me losing a *pound* of actual fat mass per day.No discernable loss in LBM either,I used 600mg DNP per day for 12 day spurts.

If anyone would like,I can post up exactly why this method of training is preferable e.g.makes the most of DNP's fat loss.Loki over on M&M laid down "teh scziencce" a while back on this and as this thread has been helpful to me,I'd like to do the same in return.

please. thanks.